English-only, please.

vsrenard

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I wonder if they also think it would be a travesty to teach deaf students in ASL.



It should be much easier at that age than for older students.


I think it might depend on the situation. I am the child of immigrants and was learning both Tamil at home and English at school. I was fluent in Tamil before I started school but once there, my English got better and I was unable to keep up with the Tamil. I'm not particularly good or bad at languages but was just unable to learn everything at once. What is the fallback in this school for kids like that?
 

onuilmar

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I think it might depend on the situation. I am the child of immigrants and was learning both Tamil at home and English at school. I was fluent in Tamil before I started school but once there, my English got better and I was unable to keep up with the Tamil. I'm not particularly good or bad at languages but was just unable to learn everything at once. What is the fallback in this school for kids like that?

Hear, hear. When taking graduate psych classes, I learned that it takes six years for bilingual children to catch up. And yes, it was about when I was nine that I caught up.

Learning a second language,though rewarding, is never free and without work. Even little kids must struggle more than the monolingual think. Especially, if the child is the only speaker of that language in the class.
 

Literateparakeet

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Hear, hear. When taking graduate psych classes, I learned that it takes six years for bilingual children to catch up. And yes, it was about when I was nine that I caught up.

I wonder (philosophically, not literally) what they mean by "catch up". Sure you were 'behind' until nine, but I assume you are fine now, AND you are bilingual. So does that make you advanced? And if so were you ever really behind, or simply on a different schedule?

Yes, I do think being bilingual is more advanced (in language) than being monolingual, and I am in awe that some people are trilingual. So for the the "catch up" really seems like a non-issue.

When children are learning their first major skills of sitting up, crawling, walking and speaking, everyone accepts that they will learn at their own pace and thats ok. Some kids start walking about 7-8 months (those poor parents!), some as late as 18 months (which makes parents nervous).

Then when they get to school, we decide that everyone should learn to read at five, learn cursive in the third grade etc. Why do we switch to the "one size fits all" education when kids are five?

Oliver DeMille, the founder of George Wythe College didn't read until he was 11 yr. old. He got his PhD at 22. He didn't have a learning disability, he was just on his own schedule.

Uh oh, I'm babbling...sorry about that.
 

onuilmar

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I wonder (philosophically, not literally) what they mean by "catch up". Sure you were 'behind' until nine, but I assume you are fine now, AND you are bilingual. .... Why do we switch to the "one size fits all" education when kids are five?

Hi:

In a perfect world, you are correct. I just meant that many assume children learn languages with no work.

And by catch up...I meant that I was told by many children I was stupid for not knowing things...like what WWII was in 1964. I didn't recognize the English term; I knew Teine Milma Soda. Consolidating that knowledge into one whole takes more time.

And as vsrenard said with regard to Tamil, I too fell behind in Estonian...to the point that I stopped speaking it as a child. I resumed later in life. Why do I still know it? My parents still spoke it so that it was a bilingual house.

But as I stated above, I am open to multi-lingualism. I also know French and started Russian at one point. I don't regret the languages. I am just pointing out that it is not without effort.
 
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Literateparakeet

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I also know French and started Russian at one point. I don't regret the languages. I am just pointing out that it is not without effort.

Ah, yes I agree with you then. It is work for them, certainly.

"In a perfect world" is so true. Thanks for clarifying what you meant by "being behind". I can see that would be uncomfortable especially for children who want so much to fit in.

Russian? Wow, I'm impressed. I have a friend that has a talent for languages. She speaks English/Spanish/Russian. She tried to teach me a few words in Russian, and I couldn't get past "hello". That is a tough language! Spanish (my second language) is much easier.
 

onuilmar

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Don't be so impressed with the Russian....I didn't get very far for a number of reasons. But I did want to learn it. Life just took a left turn. :)

But I do know (or at least read) French very well. Yes, much easier.
 

benbradley

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...What the school is actually doing is beginning a program where every Kindergarten student is taught in English and Spanish, reaching them while they're still acquiring language and helping them all to become bilingual--a benefit in daily life as well as in the work force. But rather than phasing something in, Fox News chooses to phrase this as phasing something out--instead of saying something like, "Kindergarten classes to be conducted in both English and Spanish," they call this a "Ban on English-Only Classes."

It reeks of bias (nothing new for Fox) but it makes me wonder: why are so many Republicans against the idea of being bilingual?
I wonder if this is seen as bowing down to (mostly illegal) Mexican immigrants. Would there be such a negative reaction if the other language were something other than Spanish?

And I think there SHOULD be a variety of second languages available, even if each school only has one second language. Make one school English-French (and not necessarily just at certain scholls because they're near a lot of French speakers such as the French Canadian border or in New Orleans) and another school English-Chinese.

The only legitimate objection I could think of would be if it took away time from basic studies (and teachers have complained for decades about all the things their curricula are supposed to include), but I didn't see that objection in the article.
 

vsrenard

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When children are learning their first major skills of sitting up, crawling, walking and speaking, everyone accepts that they will learn at their own pace and thats ok. Some kids start walking about 7-8 months (those poor parents!), some as late as 18 months (which makes parents nervous).

Then when they get to school, we decide that everyone should learn to read at five, learn cursive in the third grade etc. Why do we switch to the "one size fits all" education when kids are five?

This is a really interesting question. I don't know enough about child development and psychology/education to give a useful answer.

I guess parents trying to make the best of this policy could look at this as an immersion school for free. In SF, this very type of school costs parents a pretty penny. :)
 

MarkEsq

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I drive my kids to a school outside their district just so they can get a full-time bilingual education. That woman is a loon. Ella esta una loona. Maybe that's wrong, I'll go ask my kids...
 

raburrell

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She tried to teach me a few words in Russian, and I couldn't get past "hello". That is a tough language!

Lol - I'm currently on the third unit of Rosetta Stone's Russian course, and I've yet to pronounce 'Hello' to it's satisfaction. Try 'Privyet'. It's much easier than "Zdravstvootye".

Topic: I have some cousins that get really grumpy whenever they hear someone speaking a foreign language. The one time I asked why, it turns out they were convinced the people in question were making fun of them. (They weren't)
 

Vince524

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Bare with me a moment. If I read this correctly, they want the school to not only teach both English and Spanish, but also conduct other classes like Math & Science in both languages?

Not all kids will pick it up as easy as others. Some kids struggle through each and every class. Also, if the parents aren't bilingual, isn't that going to make it more difficult to help kids at home when they need extra help?

My wife's a teacher and because she's worked with my girls, they are both in advanced math, science & English. I was of very little help, especially with the math. I need to use my fingers to count to 10, my toes to get to 20 and God help me if I need to get to 21.

And then they tell parents go to another school if they don't like it?

I'm sorry, if I got the basics down, I'd be pissed too. And I do understand the value of learning another language. One of my daughters took Spanish in grade school and now again in middle and will in High School and she's got a 99 average. The other took French. (And is doing as well there)
 

These Mean Streets

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I also become annoyed when I have to press '1' for English. But that's because, to me, it's an added inconvenience to the already aggravating inconvenience of automatic phone systems/help systems.

But I think the main reason for the vehemence against bi-lingualism and the growing call for a national language is because when we all speak the same language, even if we came from different backgrounds, we're re-affirming that we are all part of the same team and working towards the same goal: mainly, the betterment of our nation and whatever goals we, as a united people, set.

Language helps us better communicate and understand each other. It helps define our national character and, even more importantly, it promotes unity. It's a common ground from which we can build further relationships upon.

If we can't understand each other, how the hell are we going to come to know one another and forge the bonds necessary for future common endeavors?

When mainstream Americans hear another language being proffered (especially Spanish and all the "illegal immigrant" baggage it carries with it,) it subtly threatens the unity they've come to expect. It's like saying we're not one people, one nation. There's you, the English-speaking customer, and there's them - another people. Foreign. Different.

Many people feel strongly in the "melting pot" aspect of the United States. That from many disparate parts, a unique whole is formed - better, stronger, more capable.

In the past, people have come to America from many countries with different languages (German, Italian, French, Russian, Chinese, African, South American etc.) yet those people learned the lingua franca. They made the decision to integrate into the population and become part of the Whole. Become "a part of the team" so to speak.

Just as when you move to another job/company, you're expected to adopt the accustomed practices and mores and become a part of the team, so people expect immigrants to do the same when they re-locate here.

Otherwise, it comes across as if they're saying: We want the good stuff in your society, but we don't want to become a part of your society.

How well would it work if you went to a new job and insisted on carrying over the ways and traditions of the old job and not acclimating yourself into your new environment? Not so well, I would think. Resentment would build, the other workers would want you to leave and your boss - even if you were a valuable employee - would have to seriously consider firing you even if just for the good of the company as a whole.

So when people hear or see another language given equal footing as English, the common language of this country from the beginning, they feel threatened.

They feel as if the nation is splintering. Like it's no longer a bunch of people from different places coming together and learning to work together and be One.

They feel like it's now Us and Them. Two separate peoples.

And a united people cannot function that way and thrive.

As a good buddy of mine once said: A house divided against itself cannot stand.
 

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Getting booted out of an automated phone system with the recorded voice saying "Thank you and good-bye" is known as "voice-mail jail." It's an insulting way of handling one's customers/clients and its enough to make me not want to deal with any company that chooses to structure their auto-phone system that way. People feel very strongly that they have a right to speak to a human being if they so choose.

As for "Press 1 for English" I find it only mildly annoying simply because (yeah you guys are gonna bitch at me for this one) no other langauge gets that kind of a free pass in our culture --no other language did for that matter in all of American history. (But I am duly noting MaryMumsy's mention of French in Maine.) Take for instance Italian Americans --a vast ocean of immigrants spanning many decades of wave after wave of First Generation arrivals at Ellis Island-- they never got that kind of a free pass. They had to learn English and there were no such dual language anythings for them outside of some merchants in some urban neighborhoods who hired an English speaking Italian lad as part time help in the shop, and utilized him as an interpreter when the situation called for it.

I know learning a new language is hard, but there is a "sense" of things that doesn't seem right here. The sense of things is this:

--Established residents, and welcome new comers.
--Established langauge, and outsiders' language.

The idea of American being the Great Melting Pot means that the newcomers have to melt themselves in to the existing culture. But remaining for too long behind the barrier of one's native langauge prevents that melting from happening, or at least slows it down considerably.

As for me, I'm Irish American. And I have heard the tales from my parents and grandparents of the extreme hostilties that Irish immigrants and their children all suffered for many generations in this nation -- and they spoke English! Even in the 1950's, "help wanted" signs graced the windows of many businesses in America, with the caveat of "No Irish Need Apply" (aka the "NINA" designation for help wanted signs in windows and help wanted ads in local newspapers). It wasn't until JFK became president that Irish Americans were finally accepted by mainstream Americans AS actual Americans. Italian Americans didn't become accepted into the mainstream until the early 1980's. BOTH groups were denied access to the Grownups' Table for way too long.

The barriers that divided past historical ethnic groups from the mainstream included langauge and religion and culture. So it was with the Germans, and the Norwegians, and the Polish, and the Irish, and the Italians, and the Chinese, and so many others. And now here in the 21st century, we're seeing the same thing all over again with the Hispanics. The langauge barrier is only one aspect of several that will keep them from full acceptance for far too long. But I see these present-day EXTREMES of langauge accomodation for Hispanics as delaying for even longer what will certainly be an already way too long delay of their full arrival at a place of acceptance.

While I appreciate and applaud governmental agencies (in our Post-Miranda Rights Supreme Court Ruling society) for trying to accomodate Hispanic people (and other non-English speakers), I do not see private businesses as doing them long-term good by accomodating them. I merely see business making the shrewd business decision of "Gee, guys, Hispanic dollars are just as good as English-speaking dollars, so let's court Hispanic bsusiness by having fluent Spanish/English speakers in customer service," (much like the merchant in my above example who might hire an English-speaking Italian kid). But that's just money to them, it's not humanity or community. So I think if Master Card and General Motors REALLY wanted to do some societal good, they should simultaneously give charitable support to ESL-language classes throughout our major cities. That's the whole "give a man a fish" principle right there in my estimation.
 
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No problem for me if schools want to create a voluntary bi-lingual learning environment. But forcing it upon kids is problematic. Minds are wired diversely, and what works fine for one kid may not work at all for the next. Some kids need more structure than others, etc. Any certified teachers amongst us could probably do a better job at explaining this point than me, though.
 

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No problem for me if schools want to create a voluntary bi-lingual learning environment. But forcing it upon kids is problematic. Minds are wired diversely, and what works fine for one kid may not work at all for the next. Some kids need more structure than others, etc. Any certified teachers amongst us could probably do a better job at explaining this point than me, though.


I am not a teacher anymore. But it's true that some kids wouldn't do well in a bi-lingual environment. But MOST kids would be fine. Language acquisition is key prior to the age of 7. After around age 14, you're facing greater and greater difficulty in making new inroads into the language centers of the mind --the cement is fast-drying after the age of 14. And then after age 21 you're really in an uphill battle to achieve true fluidity in bi-lingualism.
 

rwam

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I am not a teacher anymore. But it's true that some kids wouldn't do well in a bi-lingual environment. But MOST kids would be fine. Language acquisition is key prior to the age of 7. After around age 14, you're facing greater and greater difficulty in making new inroads into the language centers of the mind --the cement is fast-drying after the age of 14. And then after age 21 you're really in an uphill battle to achieve true fluidity in bi-lingualism.

Good info and killer steampunk art. A+!
 

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Bare with me a moment. If I read this correctly, they want the school to not only teach both English and Spanish, but also conduct other classes like Math & Science in both languages?

Okay, Vince, this is supposed to be a serious academic discussion. If you're gonna start making these lewd suggestions, you'll have to take it to the Erotica Forum. Nicht war?
 

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Knowing more than one language is a great asset for personal pleasure as well as for literacy, cultural understanding, diplomacy, broadened horizons, travel, and--of course--business.

However, I hope we're not falling into the trap of considering the United States "a bilingual nation." Depending on estimates, more than 300 languages are spoken in the US.

"After English and Spanish...few realize that French is spoken regularly in more American homes more than any other language (1.6 million). More than a million Americans also regularly speak German, Italian, and Chinese. And among the top languages spoken by Americans at home is one that has been spoken in this country long before English and Spanish arrived—Navajo." [source: Infoplease]

Of course, since Spanish is becoming increasingly important in many parts of the US, that language seems to be the obvious choice these days, unless a school can offer other languages, too, which very few elementary schools are able to do.

Educating young children bilingually? Why not? Whether that should be compulsory or optional seems to be the sticking point, as we see in this thread. But with a few exceptions, it would be hard to prove that learning two languages ever hurt anybody--including the woman who fears for her fractured family.

A personal note: I am fortunate in being fairly competent in four languages, through no great virtue of mine--mainly through dumb luck. It is uncharitable of me, but I often find it embarrassing when American politicians attempt to address people in a language other than English. Most of them sound awkward or even dim-witted, helping to solidify the impression in other parts of the world that Americans lack culture. Now, if those politicians had learned other languages as children... :)
 
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blacbird

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However, I hope we're not falling into the trap of considering the United States "a bilingual nation." Depending on estimates, more than 300 languages are spoken in the US.

"After English and Spanish...few realize that French is spoken regularly in more American homes more than any other language (1.6 million).

Misleading, at best:

http://www.census.gov/prod/2010pubs/acs-12.pdf

62% of people who speak a language other than English at home speak Spanish (34.5 million). By the math contained in this Census Bureau report, French speakers, your 1.6 million) would account for about 3% (summarized within the 10.3 million "other Indo-European language" speakers). Mesuspects there are more Chinese and Korean native speakers than there are French, and possibly some other ethnicities.

And there can be no doubt that the fraction of anti-bilingual people who claim Republican affinities as far higher than the percentage who claim Democratic affinities.

caw
 

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This thread reminds me of a joke I once "heard" from some on-line Euroopean friends:

What do you call a person who speaks three languages?
Tri-lingual

Two languages?
Bi-lingual

One language?
American

I think that was a well-deserved slap. LOL!

Ha, I was about to post that same joke. One of my roommates in grad school was from Taiwan. He used to love to tease me and my other roommates with this joke.

Sad truth is, he's right. He said that in Taiwan, all students (at least where he was from) were required to learn English. You had the option of learning other languages later, but learning English was required.

A lot of Americans can't even speak/write English correctly. Encouraging them to learn another language is like slapping their stupidity in the face. They'd rather be stupid.
 

benbradley

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...
A personal note: I am fortunate in being fairly competent in four languages, through no great virtue of mine--mainly through dumb luck. It is uncharitable of me, but I often find it embarrassing when American politicians attempt to address people in a language other than English. Most of them sound awkward or even dim-witted, helping to solidify the impression in other parts of the world that Americans lack culture. Now, if those politicians had learned other languages as children... :)
I'm so dissapointed to learn this Vice President Quayle quote how he didn't learn Latin isn't true, though he did say a lot of other odd things:
http://www.snopes.com/quotes/quayle.asp
Misleading, at best:

http://www.census.gov/prod/2010pubs/acs-12.pdf

62% of people who speak a language other than English at home speak Spanish (34.5 million). By the math contained in this Census Bureau report, French speakers, your 1.6 million) would account for about 3% (summarized within the 10.3 million "other Indo-European language" speakers). Mesuspects there are more Chinese and Korean native speakers than there are French, and possibly some other ethnicities.

And there can be no doubt that the fraction of anti-bilingual people who claim Republican affinities as far higher than the percentage who claim Democratic affinities.

caw
I wonder what the percentages are of multilingual Americans is by political party. I imagine it's pretty low for both.
 

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A word from south of the border: learning english is hard, even more so when your native tongue is spanish. Because of the phonetics, it would be easier for a mexican to learn japanese.

English classes are difficult, lenghty, and often much more expensive than what the family of your average illegal immigrant could afford. When they're taught in public school, they are ludicrously inaccurate to the point of hilariousness.

It's naive to expect from illegal immigrants, a community comprised mostly by the poorest, less educated people from Mexico to have a high school diplomma, much less a second language, which they barely need in the close, tight hispanic communities they reach in the U.S, and which they have zero spare time to learn.

Believe me when I say that mexican illegal immigrants would much rather speak english, if only to avoid the stigma of spanish speakers.


...I didn't made any embarassing mistakes in this post, did I?
 

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...I didn't made any embarassing mistakes in this post, did I?


Yes.

First, the PC term is "undocumented immigrant."

Second, most established American citizens would prefer that there be NO illegal undocumented immigrants at all, only the kind who got here via proper channels. So the appeal you're trying too make for anyone to sympathize with the lack of money for English lessons in a family of undocmented immigrants won't cause some folks to shed any tears. Try rephrasing the whole post so that you are only referring to documented immigrants who come to America. (And last I heard, the YMCA has free ESL classes.)
 

Xelebes

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Okay, Vince, this is supposed to be a serious academic discussion. If you're gonna start making these lewd suggestions, you'll have to take it to the Erotica Forum. Nicht war?

Not was? Vergib mich, bitte, aber ich verstehe das nicht.
 

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Yes.

First, the PC term is "undocumented immigrant."

Second, most established American citizens would prefer that there be NO illegal undocumented immigrants at all, only the kind who got here via proper channels. So the appeal you're trying too make for anyone to sympathize with the lack of money for English lessons in a family of undocmented immigrants won't cause some folks to shed any tears. Try rephrasing the whole post so that you are only referring to documented immigrants who come to America. (And last I heard, the YMCA has free ESL classes.)

Óuh!! (Translation: "D'oh!")

If everyone who got into the US undocumentally got a pardon and hearty handshake, would the native USofAnians tolerate bilingualism to help their new documentated neighbors?