What not to do? A newbie question about plots to avoid.

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Nix

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Hey there!

I know this may seem like a somewhat frivolous topic, but it's something I as a new writer have often wondered about. Has anyone else ever been looking over the submission policies of a site only to discover that *gasp!* one of the many premises they've listed in the "we're not interested" section co-incides with your latest short?

I've always thought that a well-written and well-executed story with a familiar premise is better than a poorly-written but fresh idea, but it might help if one knew what to avoid (or at least what could be subverted).

So I ask this: does anyone have any suggestions as to which sci-fi ideas have already been done to death?
 

Fenika

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Unless you keep banging against the 'if we see another X story, we'll puke' list, just find another market.

But if you do want to avoid that, then consult the lists of which you speak.

And regardless, try to write widely (even if only in SF). We have monthly challenges in SYW that will get your muse rolling on all sorts of random topics.
 

Salis

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I'm just going to play devil's advocate here and say: fuck the lists. I mean, sure, they're useful, but some of them are just silly.

I saw one "what we want" qualifier from a very big agency that came right out and said: we want books exactly like <insert name of big book here>, if you don't know what these are, don't bother talking to us.

Which just seems like shooting yourself in the foot to me, being derivative is basically the antithesis of genius.
 
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I'm just going to play devil's advocate here and say: fuck the lists. I mean, sure, they're useful, but some of them are just silly.

I saw one "what we want" qualifier from a very big agency that came right out and said: we want books exactly like <insert name of big book here>, if you don't know what these are, don't bother talking to us.

Which just seems like shooting yourself in the foot to me, being derivative is basically the antithesis of genius.


Because cutting edge "genius" is what sells the most books? I'm sure they are thinking more about the pre-made market perfectly willing to snap up whatever similar stories the publishers can throw at them.
 

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I hate being told no. And I hate the idea of writing around lists of "yes"or "no".

There are obvious things, like "we don't take stories with children in them". That just seems stupid... of course, there are sickos writing subjects with children that no one wants to read that. But guess what were the first two stories I wrote? Stories with children as mc's.

I say, write what you want. Not everything you write is going to get published. But everything you write helps you as a writer. I say go with the muse, and hope you find an outlet. Eventually, unless every story you write has a talking dog or a child in it, you will come up with stories that have none of those "red x" topics.
 
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I hate being told no. And I hate the idea of writing around lists of "yes"or "no".

There are obvious things, like "we don't take stories with children in them". That just seems stupid... of course, there are sickos writing subjects with children that no one wants to read that. But guess what were the first two stories I wrote? Stories with children as mc's.

I say, write what you want. Not everything you write is going to get published. But everything you write helps you as a writer. I say go with the muse, and hope you find an outlet. Eventually, unless every story you write has a talking dog or a child in it, you will come up with stories that have none of those "red x" topics.


I totally support these statements. Yes, your stories will not appeal to very agent or editor. But there are a lot of fish in the sea, and I can't imagine I would find it worth continuing my writing if I had to write to spec instead of writing about what I want to write about.

Besides, the vast majority of ideas(I won't say all) have been done to death anyway. Lists like those you describe are going to be different for each person, so there's not much point in worrying too much about them.
 

Salis

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Because cutting edge "genius" is what sells the most books? I'm sure they are thinking more about the pre-made market perfectly willing to snap up whatever similar stories the publishers can throw at them.

I suppose it's a good idea... but really, who ever looked at a good book and went, "Damn, I really want to copy this book, and sell moderately well!"

That sort of motivation always leads to disaster (see: the grand history of knock-offs throughout the history of commerce), and it shocks me to see big-time agencies actually promoting it.

I mean, "do something that is similar to things that are popular" is one thing, but this was more along the lines of "If you have not read this book and written your piece as a simulacrum of it, you are not what we want". I wish I was exaggerating.
 

Salis

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I'll admit I'm probably sensitive to this issue because I've seen this thinking literally KILL a genre in another medium that I really liked (via the thinking "Hey, we copied this really popular thing that did really well, but none of our copies sold well. This must be because there's no demand for this genre, not because our copies sucked balls").
 

Polenth

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Hey there!

I know this may seem like a somewhat frivolous topic, but it's something I as a new writer have often wondered about. Has anyone else ever been looking over the submission policies of a site only to discover that *gasp!* one of the many premises they've listed in the "we're not interested" section co-incides with your latest short?

That's actually never happened to me. I don't know whether that means I've struck a blow for originality or my stories are too odd for words and no one will publish them.

Anyway, those lists are often just things the editor sees all the time. A market isn't going to want lots of stories with the same premise (especially if they've just brought one with that premise). So writing the story is like turning up to a sprinting race in heavy boots. It's a disadvantage, but if you're an excellent runner you might still win.

The only way to know is to send the story.
 

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My two cents here.

If no one wants to buy up what you want to write, then write it so well that they don't know what it is until they are attached.

might reopen the door.

And I agree, with the whole copying thing. I have never met someone who says "Oh its a cheap knock off of X I'm going to go read/watch/listen to it." its the real deal or something new.
 

whistlelock

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The early post- write what you want- is right.

Write the stories you want to read. But, if you find the larger markets have strict prohibitions against the type of stories you're writing, it's on you to find the places that are looking for what you want.

So, if you're writing in what the publishers mark as cliche, be prepared to try and market that cliche.
 

Kitty Pryde

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I'm just going to play devil's advocate here and say: fuck the lists. I mean, sure, they're useful, but some of them are just silly.

I saw one "what we want" qualifier from a very big agency that came right out and said: we want books exactly like <insert name of big book here>, if you don't know what these are, don't bother talking to us.

Which just seems like shooting yourself in the foot to me, being derivative is basically the antithesis of genius.

I think you misunderstood what the OP is talking about. Some mags have lists of submissions they get loads of, which are all the same. For instance, this Strange Horizons (SF/F mag) list of "Stories We've Seen Too Often". (also there's one for their horror section) They're just saying, don't send us this plot, we've already got buckets and heaps of it around here. It's not "We only want X and we stifle your creative genius", it's "For Cthulhu's sake, please stop sending us X! Mercy!" For instance they say,

9. A "surprise" twist ending occurs. (Note that we do like endings that we didn't expect, as long as they derive naturally from character action. But note, too, that we've seen a lot of twist endings, and we find most of them to be pretty predictable, even the ones not on this list.)
  1. The characters' actions are described in a way meant to fool the reader into thinking they're humans, but in the end it turns out they're not humans, as would have been obvious to anyone looking at them.
  2. Creatures are described as "vermin" or "pests" or "monsters," but in the end it turns out they're humans.
  3. The author conceals some essential piece of information from the reader that would be obvious if the reader were present at the scene, and then suddenly reveals that information at the end of the story. (This can be done well, but rarely is.)
  4. Person is floating in a formless void; in the end, they're born.
  5. Person uses time travel to achieve some particular result, but in the end something unexpected happens that thwarts their plan.
  6. The main point of the story is for the author to metaphorically tell the reader, "Ha, ha, I tricked you! You thought one thing was going on, but it was really something else! You sure are dumb!"

Anyways, OP, the best way to know what's been done to death is to read read read! And read some more! If you aren't well read in your genre, it's hard to figure out what sort of stuff is novel and what's been done to death. (Yeah, in fantasy, readers tend to like the same sort of stuff in many cases, but you've still got to put your own spin on it). Besides the strange horizons list, umm, oh! you can read the Turkey City Lexicon, especially "Part 3: Common Workshop Story Types".
 

Marcus

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kitty thank you for that link to the turkey city lex! /bow

my own personal demon.
A story based on some arcane bit of science or folklore, which noodles around producing random weirdness. Then a loony character-actor (usually best played by Dennis Hopper) barges into the story is the main character. :cringe: and baldly tells the protagonist what's going on by explaining the underlying mystery in a long bug-eyed rant. (Attr. Howard Waldrop)

I have tried to work checks and balances into the character's build, but after reading that list I'm a little upset. There are Soooo many pitfalls, I wonder how it is that anything gets published. :Shrug: :cry:
 
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Salis

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I think you misunderstood what the OP is talking about. Some mags have lists of submissions they get loads of, which are all the same. For instance, this Strange Horizons (SF/F mag) list of "Stories We've Seen Too Often". (also there's one for their horror section) They're just saying, don't send us this plot, we've already got buckets and heaps of it around here. It's not "We only want X and we stifle your creative genius", it's "For Cthulhu's sake, please stop sending us X! Mercy!" For instance they say,

I was referring to a qualification I'd seen from a big agency that literally name-dropped a few books and said, "If you haven't read this/aren't writing like this, don't bother contacting us."
 

Smiling Ted

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Hey there!

I know this may seem like a somewhat frivolous topic, but it's something I as a new writer have often wondered about. Has anyone else ever been looking over the submission policies of a site only to discover that *gasp!* one of the many premises they've listed in the "we're not interested" section co-incides with your latest short?

I've always thought that a well-written and well-executed story with a familiar premise is better than a poorly-written but fresh idea, but it might help if one knew what to avoid (or at least what could be subverted).

So I ask this: does anyone have any suggestions as to which sci-fi ideas have already been done to death?

This is what the basics is for.
 

Wark

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Just face it, no one wants to read your story about kids finding a magical talking cat who traveled back in time to share faster than light technology with sexy vampires.

But write it anyway, pretending it matters and will get picked up anyway, and then get rejected.

Might as well submit it in comic sans 16pt on teal paper while you're at it.


From Clarkesworld Magazine's submission page:
Though no particular setting, theme, or plot is anathema to us, the following are likely hard sells:

* stories in which a milquetoast civilian government is depicted as the sole obstacle to either catching some depraved criminal or to an uncomplicated military victory
* stories in which the words "thou" or "thine" appear
* talking cats
* talking swords
* stories where the climax is dependent on the spilling of intestines
* stories where FTL travel is as easy as is it on television shows or movies
* time travel too
* stories that depend on some vestigial belief in Judeo-Christian mythology in order to be frightening (i.e., Cain and Abel are vampires, the End Times are a' comin', Communion wine turns to Christ's literal blood and it's HIV positive, Satan's gonna getcha, etc.)
* stories about rapist-murderer-cannibals
* stories about young kids playing in some field and discovering ANYTHING. (a body, an alien craft, Excalibur, ANYTHING).
* stories about the stuff we all read in Scientific American three months ago
* stories where the Republicans, or Democrats, or Libertarians, or the Spartacist League, etc. take over the world and either save or ruin it
* your AD&D game
* "funny" stories that depend on, or even include, puns
* sexy vampires, wanton werewolves, or lusty pirates
* zombies or any other overused undead creature of the week
* stories originally intended for someone's upcoming theme anthology or issue
* stories where the protagonist is either widely despised or widely admired simply because he or she is just so smart and/or strange
* stories that take place within an artsy-fartsy bohemia as written by an author who has clearly never experienced one
* your trunk stories
 
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Just face it, no one wants to read your story about kids finding a magical talking cat who traveled back in time to share faster than light technology with sexy vampires.

But write it anyway, pretending it matters and will get picked up anyway, and then get rejected.

Might as well submit it in comic sans 16pt on teal paper while you're at it.


From Clarkesworld Magazine's submission page:

Likely hard sells...well, I pretty much would avoid all of that except the talking cats and lusty pirates in moderation. Or lusty cats and talking pirates in excess...
 

Salis

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stories that depend on some vestigial belief in Judeo-Christian mythology

Well, damn. I'm screwed, then.
 

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Just face it, no one wants to read your story about kids finding a magical talking cat who traveled back in time to share faster than light technology with sexy vampires.

:cry:
 

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Well, damn. I'm screwed, then.

Don't quote that out of context.

Clearly, judeo-christian mythology has worked very well for Dan Brown, James Rollins, and Steven Speilberg. It's defiling it -- a la the examples they gave -- that will get you rejected.
 

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Just face it, no one wants to read your story about kids finding a magical talking cat who traveled back in time to share faster than light technology with sexy vampires.

But write it anyway, pretending it matters and will get picked up anyway, and then get rejected.

Might as well submit it in comic sans 16pt on teal paper while you're at it.


From Clarkesworld Magazine's submission page:

I am *very* happy to read this list, because reviewing it against my oeuvre, I have avoided all of these memes.
 
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