Sunpiper Press / Sunpiper Media Publishing

Re: The site statement---

I would personally prefer to have someone with a good heart and a REAL interest in ME and my dreams, than an agent with too many clients and not enough time to think twice about me.

Click to expand...

Are those the options, then? Someone who cares but doesn't know what they're doing or an expert who doesn't care?

To me, that sounds like a rationalization for failure. Or for aiming really, really low.

Frankly, reading this thread reminds me of the adage No agent at all is better than a bad agent. And I don't see that Mr. Denson is a good or even mediocre agent.

For instance:

I’ll shout to the world, “MY BACKGROUND IS IN LAW AND MANAGEMENT, NOT PUBLISHING.” I’m not ashamed of that and I don’t claim otherwise

Click to expand...

But later he says:

"I think regular literary agents look for good projects to represent; projects based on popular culture that are hot at the moment. That is how they generate revenue. Nevertheless, if your work doesn't fit their profile, they won't accept it. It's the way of the business."

Click to expand...

If you don't know publishing, how do you know the criteria that successful literary agents pick their clients?

Frankly, Sunpiper looks like a waste of time. The site is full of warning signs, including:

Although they seldom result from poor writing, rejection letters discourage authors.

Click to expand...

Rejections are seldom the result of poor writing?

Please.

So Mr. Denson isn't taking people's money. Great. And he has a website where people can post their work for free. Fab. But that doesn't mean he's going to do anyone any good. Unless all they want is to feel a part of something.

For anyone considering Sunpiper, or anywhere else that talks about "elites" and being an outsider, consider this: All the books you read and love that are published by big publishers were not put out because of connections or being a member of some elite. They were published because a writer wrote that book instead of writing crap.

If people want to be published and successful, they need to write a book the publishers will publish, one similar to the books they read and love. That book will create the so-called connections.

Re: The site statement---

Let's run a little test, shall we....

nielsenhayden.com/makingl...tml#005540

nielsenhayden.com/makingl...tml#005555

Re: The site statement---

Is it safe to assume that everyone posting here is a successful, published author--with a high profile agent, nonetheless? The egos swarming these posts seem to support that assumption.

Re: The site statement---

Students in high school do not need literary agents. Students in high school should be doing their homework and going to the mall. Most student's in high school do not have enough life experience or writing experience to write a book worthy of commercial publication. I'm sure there are a few that do, but the majority do not. I have no issue with Rob posting whatever he wants to post on his website.

We're talking about Rob's literary agency, not his website.

You are woefully misinformed if you think that all agents are heartless and have no time for their clients.

You are also quite foolish if you think that it is more important that an agent have a REAL interest in YOU and your dreams. What is important that your agent believes in you and your work and that he has the ability to get your work to publishers and then negotiate a deal for you. Agents are not your friends or your family they are your agent. An agency or publishing company is not your family they are businesses. If you are a serious about a writing career please remember that it is a career. As in business. As in professional. If you want to sit around singing Kumbayah - I suggest you give up the writing dreams and open a summer camp.

Re: My response

Sorry, Robdee. You can huff and puff all you want, but you still have no idea what you're doing, and you're no use to your writers. Victoria's right; being an agent is a complex, demanding, highly skilled, and sometimes counter-intuitive job. The only way to learn how to do it is to work for another agent. This isn't the publishing industry being elitist or exclusive; that's just what it takes.

You haven't done your time. You're like a would-be doctor who scoffs when people try to explain that one really does have to go to medical school.

Re: The site statement---

SK, you should go to bed and come back tomorrow in a less agitated state. You're going to use up all your exclamation points and question marks.

Re: The site statement---

Again...the twisting of the words!

I don't need to justify my intentions or ambitions with you--and I won't.

Obviously students don't need agents. Never said they did. Just a leg up, maybe.

And take a look at the original post. It DID ask about Sunpiper Press, not the agency. You like to bite, before you bark! Don't ya, Simon?

My dream (I will share that with you since you need everything spelled out), is to become a published writer. (Traditionally, Simon, traditionally.)

If someone believes in my work, obviously they'll believe in me. Put 2 and 2 together, please. It takes too much effort to keep explaining everything to you.

Good night all. Did this too long already.

Re: The site statement---

SKM -

You and your buddy Jesse were the ones who starting yapping about what a great AGENT Rob was. It was only after Jess touted Rob's efforts that I even posted anything - and that was to point out that agents don't do what Rob was doing - not because they're not motivated, but because there's no reason to.

Your say your dream is to be published traditionally and that you are not ignorant - and yet you have chosen an agent who appears to be incapable of getting you traditionally published - he doesn't know anything about the business and has NO contacts at any of the traditional houses. And based on his own words - which were on a link he himself provided - he seems to carry a certain amount of animosity toward the very people you want to publish you.

So one at the very least has to wonder if you are more ignorant than you believe yourself to be.

I must admit I'm curious about your experiences to date with getting published. PA author? Agent rejections? What could possibly have led you to believe that Rob was the best way to go?

Re: I... have ESP

It's the end of the night, and hopefully the end of this post. But yes, I am another cult member and i'm chiming in. I have worked with Robert on several different projects/levels and I will say this: He has always been very straight forward and up front about who he is and what he does. I don't think this engaging conversation is a question of his character, just a question of his ability to do a job that some of you have deemed him incapeable of doing. Yes, he is new to the arena, but all of you have been 'new' on some level or another. Some people are text book, some people are hands on. Some of you need to get your hands on a text book and learn the difference between opinion and fact.

I do admire the fact that Mr. K is lending his opinion or 'suggestions' to Robert as to what he can do so that the error on P&E's site can be corrected. And he has done that and managed (quite easily I might add) to keep his integrity in tact, unlike some of you. However, it's evident that some of you may have been victimized by scam artists, and since you have been fortunate enough to move past that experience, you're on some crusade to label Sunpiper and probably other agencies incompetent because they don't fit your standards, without even being able to prove it. Just jumping on those high horses and looking down on Sunpiper because of your 'opinions', not facts. If it is your intention to assist, help, warn (you pick) other authors, then you should base the information you provide on fact, not on opinion. I know that's difficult for some of you, but give it a try. You might even find out you've been wrong about a lot of other things, too.

Funny thing is, there are quite a few agents/agencies who butter your bread and abide by the criteria you've set forth, as far as what should and should not be mentioned in the description of their services. They're probably the main ones who are guilty of doing the things you oppose. They just omit it from their verbage which allows them to receive a thumbs up! And how do you 'eventually' find out about these people being scam artists? Probably because someone who has had a terrible experience with them came forth and screamed it from the rooftops. And showed you proof.

The writers who are contracted with Sunpiper have come forth and told you everything that Robert has done to help them move forward. BUT STILL, negative things coming from people who have not even worked with him or heard of any wrongdoings from writers who have worked with him. Go figure.

I wholeheartedly believe in what he is doing. He's providing a forum for writers to share their voice. He's encouraging youth to utilize their voices through their writing talents. He's providing a chance to authors who may be overlooked because they're either NOT, yet, published or well-known authors. He is assisting writers in getting their work published. He is making these investments in the writers because he believes in them as writers and he believes in their work. Is he a 'seasoned' agent? No, nor has he claimed to be. But he will be.

Re: I... have ESP

Some of you need to get your hands on a text book and learn the difference between opinion and fact.

Click to expand...

Good idea. After that, let's all get a dictionary and learn the difference between opinion and informed opinion.

What Mr. Denson is suggesting is nothing new. Why do you think he was so quickly slapped with a "Not recommended?" Because everything he does is also done by scammers.

The fact that he doesn't charge speaks to his intentions, but not his effectiveness. The things scammers do aren't just bad because they charge money when they shouldn't--they also don't work.

Mr. Denson is not even the first honest person to try their hand at jumping in to literary agency. Did you follow the links that CAO posted and read every comment? Here are some more: Slushkiller and On the getting of agents.

Both are long, but you should read them all the way through. They're a worthy investment.

In truth, none of Mr. Denson's ideas seem new to me, and I'm nobody. But hey, if I'm nobody, why should you believe what I say?

How about this: I believe in you and I believe in your work. There. Now are you ready to believe whatever I say, no matter who I am or how tenuous my connection to publishing? It seems to have worked for Mr. Denson.

Re: Hello Dave

Thank you Dave. I will discuss this matter with you directly instead of on a forum. All and all, this is getting ridiculously out of hand. HapiSofi, Simon, HConn, Victoria, you are all reading parts of what stated and not applying the whole. The part about "thumbing my nose at the literary market" was at the beginning of the editorial and that is all you refer to---you didn't even read or mention the rest.

I've been referred to as a cult leader and a pied piper. You all meant that as an insult, however, you guys should remember--selling is about being able to reach a market. If I were a pied piper or cult leader, then that would mean I was reaching an audience--wouldn't it?

Look, I'm not trying to argue with you guys anymore. You are condemning a new idea even before most of the actions have been put into place. You are like Barney Fiffe trying to "nip my new idea in the bud". It seems that what offends you the most is that, I'm not following your rules and people are still supporting what I'm trying to do.

I tell you what. Keep this thread, tuck it away and pull it out in five years. If you all are the prophets of the industry, predicting success and failure, you can send this to me, dance with glee and say "I told you so!" However, what you seem really to be afraid of is that you may pull it out in five years and find you might have to eat a little crow.

Whether you guys know it or not, you've served a great purpose. I have broken down my ideas and made declarations that I will HAVE to follow. The first time I were to break one, I'm sure you would be right there to rub it in my face. But I'm not afraid to stand behind anything I stated here.

Bottom line is, Robert is trying a different route and it scares you to death that he might succeed. I will succeed because I have an audience. Remember folks, its about marketing!!!!

When I began my Preschool business, I knew (and still know) nothing about childcare--and you know what? In the 4 years it has been in existence, I've been in the building about 6 times total when the place was actually open. I have people I trust to run it. They are all very qualified and all I do is make sure it continues to grow. We were operating in the black before year two of the business. When I began my real estate development, I knew nothing about that either--but again, it has flourished and I luckily NEVER lost any money in that business--not even in the first year. And here is why I like to hear you nay sayers---there were many screaming at me then that I didn't know what I was doing and I was wasting time and money---but now, they dine upon crow every day and I don't giggle and point.

For every success, there are people that attempt to stand in the way of that success. You have chosen your side and I have chosen mine. May he/she with the best interest of writers in mind succeed---because, unless I'm mistaken, cultivating new writers is what we ALL HERE in this forum are about--isn't it?

Thank you for your name calling, accusations and on seldom occasions, constructive advice. I will leave this post by offering what none of you are willing to offer me---I wish you all success and I hope you continue to do well at what you do.

Respectfully,
Robert Denson III
Sunpiper Literary

Re: Hello Dave

And again, Vicki, you take out one statement and build on it. You did not want to put in the part about it being successful and operating in the black the first year it was opened--do you?

WOW! This demonstrates now narrow your vision is. You see only what you want to see. WOW is truly the word.

You really knocked that one out of the park for me. Thanks.

Re: Hello Dave

message deleted. Why bother?

WOW is truly the word.

Obviously, Robert, you must have enough business sense to make almost any project succeed, no matter what it is. I commend you on your successful businesses and hope this one works out for you. You obviously have a talent that certain authors or agents don't have.
I might have missed a point, or misunderstood one, but are you planning on hiring people to be agents to work at your company for your authors?

By the way your other businesses are going, that is the just of what I'm getting and the others are not.

Re: The site statement---

My dream (I will share that with you since you need everything spelled out), is to become a published writer. (Traditionally, Simon, traditionally.)

Click to expand...

And you think the best way to achieve that is by letting a person with no connections of experience in this business represent you?

If someone believes in my work, obviously they'll believe in me. Put 2 and 2 together, please. It takes too much effort to keep explaining everything to you.

Click to expand...

While it might make you feel all warm and fuzzy to hear someone say they believe in your work, it's not going to get you a contract with a publisher.

What is your plan here? Mr. Denson doesn't seem to have any connections, so what exactly does he do for you that you can't do for yourself? Is he simply there to hold your hand as you submit to publishers? Don't you have parents and/or friends to do that for you?

Bottom line is, Robert is trying a different route and it scares you to death that he might succeed. I will succeed because I have an audience. Remember folks, its about marketing!!!!

Click to expand...

Are you talking about yourself or are you getting your sockpuppet-posts mixed up? :\

Why would people here be scared of you succeeding? All they're trying to do is help writers, even though a lot of writers don't like being told that they might be getting scammed or that they might be going about things the wrong way.

What are we supposed to think about you when you come in here and act exactly like so many scammers have before you? You're defensive, you snipe, you come with a throng of loyal clients who are also very defensive and ill-mannered.

Do you do the professional thing tell your writers to back off and let you handle something that concerns you and your business and not their work? No. You let them get their hands dirty dealing with your problems. And then, when people who are respected by writers, publishers and editors alike question your business because of its similarity to scammers, you lash out at them and start accusing them. Is that in the best interest of your business and the writers you represent? This place does not exists to coddle you, it exists to help writers avoid people that might hurt them or or their careers. If you want to be respected as a professional it is up to you to prove yourself -- and not just to places like P&E, but to the entire business. Good luck.

Re: Hello Dave

(This message was left blank)

Re: This whole discourse is unnecessary

First off, let me say, I have no previous knowledge of Sunpiper. I've noticed a coincidence however of the pro-Sunpiper posts (by newbies) and the language structure of Mr. Denson's. I find that very interesting.

Re: The site statement---

JohannaJ7,
As I said before, this has all got ridiculously out of hand. I agree with you. These people are upset because I have been trying to help them and you guys are slamming me as a scammer.

Here is what I'm saying to you Johanna--no ifs, ands or buts--and I have spoken this before. You all suspect me as a scammer because YOU DON'T KNOW ME AND YOU HAVE NOT WORKED WITH ME. All I have asked is that you interact with me first, see what I do, see how I treat you, then make your opinion about me. Don't label me unless you research me.

I have had authors approach me, hear my approach and say "No, that's not for me." I say, "Hey, that's cool. Keep the stuff I've given you and I wish you success." I don't have a problem with people not wanting to walk in the direction I am going. But I don't call them incompetent because they don't see what I see. It's not meant for them.

Why can't you guys give me the same benefit of the doubt? Why can't you just say, "Robert, I don't UNDERSTAND what you are trying to do and I don't want to take a part. Just keep doing good and I hope you are successful for the people you work with."?

Instead, you have to insult me. How is that professional? I haven't told any one on this board they were wrong or stupid. All I have said is that I have a different vision. These people have been insulting me--not me insulting them. I have been professional Johanna. I have not told Simon, Victoria, HConn or anyone else that their approach was wrong---I've mostly agreed with them. I just choose to go a different route than them. I'm not the one slinging insults of incompetence. I'm not the one being disrespectful.

I would like for this all to end. It is no more about the situation, it is all turning petty and beneath us all. But find one spot on this thread, Johanna, where I have told anyone they were wrong. You won't be able to. You will only see that I respectfully disagree.

Respectfully,
Robert Denson

This whole discourse

In a previous discourse between Robert and I, I stated that I didn't mind if he shared our discussion with his writers. Some of the individuals posting here now are from among those writers. I believe they have a stake in the outcome and should be heard even if they don't have the same level of experience in dealing with the publishing industry as others. Of course, I also think that they and others should give more thought to what they state since these kinds of discussions can only too easily become inflamed.

After all, one of the main purposes of this forum is to share knowledge, especially since we all have different experiences and skills to bring into the discussion, and work out solutions to problems.

Re: This whole discourse

Amen Dave.

Re: The site statement---

Here is what I'm saying to you Johanna--no ifs, ands or buts--and I have spoken this before. You all suspect me as a scammer because YOU DON'T KNOW ME AND YOU HAVE NOT WORKED WITH ME. All I have asked is that you interact with me first, see what I do, see how I treat you, then make your opinion about me. Don't label me unless you research me.

Click to expand...

I don't think you're a scammer, Rob. I think you're a bit too inexperienced to be doing what you're doing, but for all I know you've surrounded yourself with brilliant people who will make up for your lack of experience in this field.

Instead, you have to insult me. How is that professional? I haven't told any one on this board they were wrong or stupid. All I have said is that I have a different vision. These people have been insulting me--not me insulting them. I have been professional Johanna. I have not told Simon, Victoria, HConn or anyone else that their approach was wrong---I've mostly agreed with them. I just choose to go a different route than them. I'm not the one slinging insults of incompetence. I'm not the one being disrespectful.

Click to expand...

How have I insulted you? I'm not praising you, but that's not exactly an insult. You've got a lot of writers trusting you, so we're just trying to make sure you treat them right.

And I would very much like it if you could point out where people have been insulting you, because I can't find it.

Re: The site statement---

Johanna,

You say that I am too inexperienced in the business to be doing what I am doing. But I am not inexperienced in taking something good and making it successful. Did you look at the posts of the people that I pay to work with me? FAR, FAR OUTWEIGH MY EXPERIENCE IN THE LITERARY INDUSTRY.

I'm not saying I have all the answers, JUST USING A DIFFERENT ROUTE. String back and see my statement about "Executive Producer rather than Literary Agent".

As for insults, I do not consider being compared to a 'cult leader', 'pied piper' or noted to have 'dishonest practices' as being favorable.

Acting off of my legal background, I ask you, "Have you ever prepared a case for litigation?" The whole point in doing so is to market your client and make sure a jury finds them favorable. Marketing is all about the power of persuasion--and I have MUCH experience in that.

Re: The site statement---

Rob - I did not call you a cult leader I said that the kinds of things that SKM held up as important to him/her are not the types of things one gets from literary representation - however, they are the kinds of things one gets from being in a cult.

Yes I did call you the pied piper - because I think you are leading people, with your sales abilities, AWAY from the path that will lead to traditional commercial publication and towards something that will not.

As for your vision of yourself as an executive producer. Novelists don't need executive producers. Writers need to write. And after they write they need agents and publishers. Producers in film - and that is my writing background, so I know of where I speak - oversee all elements of creating a film. There is a lot of minutae involved in producing a film, from development to production through post production - everything from costume design to music clearance. And producers bring on hundreds of specialists in each and every area to complete each task. But writing and publishing a novel require no such tasks - all they require is the ability and talent of the writer, and the agent's ability to get the work to publishers. There is no place for an executive producer in a writing career.

You are not creating some new paradigm that will revolutionize literary representation as we know it. And you still have not defined the phrase "common writer" without clarification I tend to lean toward "mediocre, not good enough to be published but I will find a way to get them published anyway because bad writers deserve publication too" If I am wrong, please clarify.

I have never called you a scammer, I believe you are sincere and passionate about your mission. I see that you have removed the misrepresentative phrase from your website, I respect you for that.

But the purpose of this particular board is to give people researching agents practical and useful information which will help them make an informed decision.

And the fact is - if someone is seeking an agent with a goal of say, getting published by a major house or even a solid independent - then they should be seeking representation by an experienced agent who has publishing industry experience, a track record of sales, and contacts in the business. You bring none of that to the table and no amount of passion will bring it to the table.

Victoria's comment

Hiya Mrs. Strauss,


How does a person gets a track record of success if no one will take a chance on them? Even Donald Maas had that first sale. I'm sure that before that he was a newbie, didn't have a record.

I'm sure the Sunpiper guy needs to be more knowledgeable. I know you're right about that, but if he's relatively new...he'll not have a record of anything.

Like the real estate agent who doesn't have a record before his first sale.

David

Re: Victoria's comment

I'm not Victoria, but perhaps I can help.

Agents usually get their experience by being junior agents/assistant agents in a larger agency. They develop their own lists there, under the head of the agency.

Then, one day, they depart, setting up their own shops. Some of the authors they've worked with over the preceding years, and whose books they've sold, go with them based on their personal relationships. On the day the "new agents" hang out their shingle they have those authors and those books as a track record. Eventually, their agencies grow (if they're successful), and they take on junior agents to help handle the load. Those junior agents develop their own stables of authors and, one day....

Agents really do learn their craft by a kind of "apprenticeship" system. Yes, there are other paths, but that's the most common.

One thing you must understand is that over at publishing houses you'll find stuff called "agented slush." That's the stuff that comes from agents no one's ever heard of. It can sit in those slush piles for a long, long time.

I know this has been recommended before, up above, but may I add my voice in suggesting that everyone read On the getting of agents?