Is it okay to use neuter pronouns?

KateM said:

Eons ago while writing essays in high school I was told that pronouns like "it""they""them""their" were not allowed.

Can I use these pronouns in my novel without the grammar police coming after me? (with an antecedent of course!)

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That's asinine. How are you supposed to write plurals without they, them or their? And how are you supposed to reference things like chairs without using it?

I think Kate's referring to using they, them, their in the singular sense instead of he, she, his, her, him, her.

If that's the case, it's stylistic, really. I don't do it in formal writing, but it's a stylistic choice, not a hard and fast rule of grammar. It may have been in the past, and it's been drilled into some schools' curriculum as proper, but it's perfectly acceptable in either form these days.

Kate, I'm sure you disremember. It, they, them, and their are very much allowed in novels and other works. Open any handy novel, and you'll see them at work in the first pages.

I know several members of the grammar police force, and they use them in their writing, and it makes the writing shine.

The grammar police like to find instances in which the antecedent of a pronoun is unclear. One of the things that bugged me when I changed my manuscript from 1st person to third was how much more often I had to use everyone's names, since "she" was no longer obviously not the POV character.

Then there's the question of whether you can say things like, "No one shaves their legs these days." That's still technically incorrect, but so common in popular speech that I wouldn't sweat it in a novel.

KateM said:

Eons ago while writing essays in high school I was told that pronouns like "it""they""them""their" were not allowed.

Can I use these pronouns in my novel without the grammar police coming after me? (with an antecedent of course!)

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There are lots of arbitrary limitations on kids in high school, but when you're grown up you can drink and smoke use pronouns to your heart's content. I think some teachers do things out of sadism (Pink Floyd's "The Wall" especially "Another Brick In The Wall Part II").

Chase said:

Kate, I'm sure you disremember.

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Maybe but I wouldn't bet on it. High school and college English classes can be weird places to learn to write things. I was told conflicting information in two college English classes (regarding when to spell out the word for a number), and only decades later when I got on AW did I discover that these were just style differences.

Sarah Madara said:

The grammar police like to find instances in which the antecedent of a pronoun is unclear. One of the things that bugged me when I changed my manuscript from 1st person to third was how much more often I had to use everyone's names, since "she" was no longer obviously not the POV character.

Then there's the question of whether you can say things like, "No one shaves their legs these days." That's still technically incorrect, but so common in popular speech that I wouldn't sweat it in a novel.

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This woman looks kinda nerdy (not that there's anything wrong with that), but I'd trust her way before a high school English teacher. Then again this appears to be descriptive, not prescriptive:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/video/0033-hisher.htm

benbradley said:

This woman looks kinda nerdy (not that there's anything wrong with that), but I'd trust her way before a high school English teacher. Then again this appears to be descriptive, not prescriptive:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/video/0033-hisher.htm

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Ugh. I can't take it. Next thing you know we'll all be ending our sentences with prepositions without a shred of guilt. And I don't think that's anything to be proud of.

But to each his own.

Here's a suggestion: Open up some of the books on your shelves. Do you see these words in use? There's your answer.

Chase said:

Kate, I'm sure you disremember.

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benbradley said:

Maybe but I wouldn't bet on it. High school and college English classes can be weird places to learn to write things. I was told conflicting information in two college English classes (regarding when to spell out the word for a number), and only decades later when I got on AW did I discover that these were just style differences.

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I'm sorry for your confusing experiences in high school and college, Ben, but yes I'll bet the farm that no English teacher. horrible as yours were, told her that pronouns like "it," "they," "them," and "their" were not allowed.

The teacher may have put restrictions on them, such as the pronouns should match their antecedents in number, but "not allowed"? That's the part which I suggest is disremembered.

And was that one class the only time pronouns were ever mentioned? No outside reading of any kind for this young lady to see pronouns at work or for that matter for you to see numbers used?

Yep, it's just got to be the fault of the awful English teachers. I'll further bet you have lots of agreement in blaming ol' Teach these days. I'm seeing the kind of writing comiing out of high schools and colleges.

My complaint was awful math teachers. One said X equalled 2.5, and the next year another said X equalled 7.322. They could never keep X straight.

Chase said:

My complaint was awful math teachers. One said X equalled 2.5, and the next year another said X equalled 7.322. They could never keep X straight.

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Man, the state of the US school system...

FWIW, I love the neutral singular 'they', as it sounds more natural than anything else I've seen. If I can avoid it, I will, but sometimes it's necessary.

Chase said:

...I'll bet the farm that no English teacher... told her that pronouns like "it," "they," "them," and "their" were not allowed.

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Agreed. 100%.

Chase said:

The teacher may have put restrictions on them, such as the pronouns should match their antecedents in number, but "not allowed"? That's the part which I suggest is disremembered.

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Alternatively, the sentence in question in the OP's essay might have had two plural nouns preceding the use of the pronoun (for example, perhaps 'the stableboys' and 'the trainers'), thus making it unclear (syntactically) to which of the plural nouns 'they' or 'their' referred.

In formal writing, which an essay for English class is, it must be clear syntactically (not just from the context) for which noun the pronoun is standing in.

For example, let's take the following example.


From the context, it's clear that 'he' refers to Clem, not Bill. But from a purely syntax point of view, it's not clear, and, therefore, for formal writing, the pronoun would be incorrect usage. For that matter, the pronoun 'it' would be similarly syntactically unclear, since it could refer to either the halter or the door.

Since it's the job of English teachers to teach formal writing skills to students, I can imagine that the above sentence in an essay would be marked down.

And the fix is, of course, quite easy. Either of the following examples works, as would a number of others.


or


I'd bet dollars to donuts that this was what the teacher was trying to convey about pronouns, and that the OP didn't understand the point or misremembers it.

KateM said:

I am not disremembering - DH will tell you how good my memory is. Now I'm wondering if maybe since the essay was not in English (Social Studies or Civics or whatever they were calling it at the moment) the teacher (not an English teacher) banned "they" "it" "them", claiming they were unclear.

As for picking a book up off my shelf: I have seen some really, really terrible garbage get published. I try not to compare my works to others.

I randomly opened The Mists of Avalon - no instances of "it" "they" or "them". In Dan Brown's Angels and Demons (also opened randomly) I found two instances of "it".

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The teacher was talking through their hat. (I'm deliberately using an ambiguous pronoun there because I prefer that to 'his or her'.)

KateM said:

I am not disremembering - DH will tell you how good my memory is. Now I'm wondering if maybe since the essay was not in English (Social Studies or Civics or whatever they were calling it at the moment) the teacher (not an English teacher) banned "they" "it" "them", claiming they were unclear.

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Well, I think it would be obvious that a teacher of a subject other than English might not be the final arbiter of correct English language usage. Perhaps you need to invest in a basic grammar book to refresh your knowledge of the actual rules. My favourite is the Little, Brown Handbook. It's fairly pricey if you look at the latest edition, but you can get older used ones for good prices. I used mine for 20 years before losing it in a move; after all, grammar rules don't change frequently or quickly.

KateM said:

As for picking a book up off my shelf: I have seen some really, really terrible garbage get published. I try not to compare my works to others.

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No one suggested that you compare your work to others, although learning how to do so isn't a bad strategy. The name you gave this thread is 'Is it okay to use neuter pronouns?', and an excellent way to find out if something is allowed is to see if other published writers do it.

KateM said:

I randomly opened The Mists of Avalon - no instances of "it" "they" or "them". In Dan Brown's Angels and Demons (also opened randomly) I found two instances of "it".

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I'm sorry, but your reading-for-style needs to be a bit more than just randomly checking a couple of pages. My point in making the comment about published books is that writers need to read for more than just entertainment. We need to read with our attention focused on the writing: what works, what doesn't, what the current conventions are, and so on.

Finally, as a point of etiquette, you might want to rethink the strategy of dismissing people who take the time to provide answers to your questions.

I think these pronouns sometimes slip past us when we read, so it's hard to notice that they're in use all the time. For instance, I opened Mists of Avalon at random, and on p. 400, I found

She could not call the barge; she feared with her very soul to cry aloud the word of power that would summon it through the mists. She could not command it...

Halfway she must move through the mists; otherwise the path would but bring her to the monks' garden behind their cloister.

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If I hadn't been looking, I'm not sure I'd have noticed the two uses of "it" or the one of "their." Frankly, I don't know how anyone could write fiction without pronouns.

I try to avoid using "they" or "their" as singulars, but I've seen it often enough in published works that I wouldn't take any complaints about it seriously. Centuries of use have effectively neutered the male pronouns, so I use those in preference to other devices when the need arises. Anything else just looks awkward to my eyes.

I don't believe I have ever heard the advice to not use these pronouns at all, outside of one writing exercise where I and the other students in my class were told to write an essay without using pronouns of any sort.

KateM said:

I am not disremembering - DH will tell you how good my memory is. Now I'm wondering if maybe since the essay was not in English (Social Studies or Civics or whatever they were calling it at the moment) the teacher (not an English teacher) banned "they" "it" "them", claiming they were unclear..

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They are a cohesion device: links that hold a text together and stop repetition in a text. Look up anaphoric and cataphoric uses and you'll see why they play a part in my genres (and registers of writing).

And Terie is right, the best place to look is your book shelf. Yes there's some rubbish out there, but hopefully you haven't paid money to have it on your book shelf, so it's safe to use as a reference

KateM said:

So "I looked at the chairs and decided they needed to be moved" would be "I looked at the chairs and decided the seats/furniture/chairs needed to be moved".

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No kidding.

You can safely jettison that advice. It's crazy.

Torgo said:

The teacher was talking through their hat. (I'm deliberately using an ambiguous pronoun there because I prefer that to 'his or her'.)

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I think there's also difference in acceptance if using it that way between British and US English. The way you used it there looks totally fine to British me, but some people would want to change it to "through his or her hat", which looks exessively wordy to me when "their" does the job!

Sarah Madara said:

Ugh. I can't take it. Next thing you know we'll all be ending our sentences with prepositions without a shred of guilt. And I don't think that's anything to be proud of.

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I usually ignore all the rules of style teachers insisted on when I was in high school. College too, actually... If it sounds good, makes sense and gets the right point across, I'll use it...

Becky Black said:

I think there's also difference in acceptance if using it that way between British and US English. The way you used it there looks totally fine to British me, but some people would want to change it to "through his or her hat", which looks exessively wordy to me when "their" does the job!

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I seem to remember that "through his or her hat" was a fairly recent development, something that took off in popularity during my lifetime. Before that, it was just "through his hat."

Now, probably half the nonfiction books on my shelf have something in the introduction about which gender pronoun is used and why, so that the authors won't be accused of sexism.

Maybe she meant it wasn't okay to neuter pronouns.

Unless there is an overpopulation of feral pronouns, in which case trap-neuter-release is the more humane option.

Am I really the only one who can't resist?

Sarah Madara said:

Now, probably half the nonfiction books on my shelf have something in the introduction about which gender pronoun is used and why, so that the author's won't be accused of sexism.

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Yep, same for the books on my shelf.

I would suggest looking to see how books in the genre you're writing in handle this. If you're writing fantasy novels, do other fantasy books use the neuter pronouns? If they do, it's safe to use them.

Like other people said though, this seems to be a style thing as opposed to hard and fast rules. Just thought I'd offer my suggestion

Sarah Madara said:

I seem to remember that "through his or her hat" was a fairly recent development, something that took off in popularity during my lifetime. Before that, it was just "through his hat."

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Yep, but the admitedly tedious "his or her" fix siezed upon with happy blinders by those intent in driving sexism from the language at any cost was only one way to avoid writing "The teacher was talking through their hat."


All plurals: The teachers were talking though their hats.

Rewording: The teacher was talking through a proverbial hat.


It's only hard for writers who don't want to think too much about how they create third-person narrative*.

*For first-person narrative and dialog, of course, the writer creates each character's level of diction.