Nonfiction proposal chapters

TrixieBelden

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It is recommended to include sample chapters in a nonfiction proposal. However, over the last few months Ive read in various interviews and articles of a few nonfiction authors who submitted proposals with no samples and received representation and/or contracts.

Do you think this is acceptable or are these particular authors just fortunate?
 

Fruitbat

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I haven't heard about that and it could be things are changing and I'm not in the loop enough to know. But from where I'm at anyway, I'd stick with the standard way. I'm sure there are always exceptions but I wouldn't risk them just thinking I was too amateurish to know how to write a proposal.

Edit: I'm finishing my NF book before sending out proposals because I just want to write it right now and will self-publish if they don't take it (but I've also got a few articles published that are based on it). Anyway, I would be thrilled if I sent a query and they told me to just send it and skip that PITA proposal completely. :)
 
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Kolta

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It is recommended to include sample chapters in a nonfiction proposal. However, over the last few months Ive read in various interviews and articles of a few nonfiction authors who submitted proposals with no samples and received representation and/or contracts. Do you think this is acceptable or are these particular authors just fortunate?

Did the submission guidelines for the agencies they contacted require samples? Even if they did, and the authors received contracts despite only offering a proposal, that's not another writer's cue to ignore what the agency wants. What's acceptable is showing potential agents you did something as simple as follow what they asked for. They dislike poor etiquette, and in the cases of the authors above, they were lucky.

It depends heavily on who you're submitting to and how easy is to find information on them. What one agent would like to see for nonfiction submissions differs from the next and they appreciate having personal preferences paid attention to.

Most agencies have their submission guidelines on their websites. Others will email you the guidelines after writing a short query to them; many actually just do the blank email bit with 'query' or something of the sort in the subject line and you'll receive a list of everything they require of you. They place much stress on not straying from what they go out of their way to ask for.

If for some reason they have made it difficult to procure such information, send the samples chapters.
 

Wilde_at_heart

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I'd just go by whatever the submission guidelines are. I've seen publishers, etc. who only want to see a proposal but I'd imagine that writing samples did come at some point before a contract was signed.
Either that or the person was already established as an expert in the area they were writing about and would know 'their stuff' inside out.
 
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ColoradoGuy

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Send at least chapter 1 -- it's the standard. I've heard that famous and/or infamous authors can get away without it, but I think that's the exception. I've published 4 nonfiction books, working on my 5th, and publishers still want a sample chapter.
 

HoldinHolden

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It always seems like an urban legend to me. I HEAR of authors who can get signed with just the proposal and the book hasn't even been started, but I've never known anyone to have that happen.
 

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I like to have a few chapters anyway-- because writing them always leads to changes in the book concept and allows me to realistically estimate how long the whole book will take to deliver
 

TrixieBelden

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I've heard of it happening more these days than ever before and wondered if perhaps it was a new trend in nonfiction or maybe certain types of nonfiction. Just pondering writing trends :)
 

Literateparakeet

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I've heard of it happening more these days than ever before and wondered if perhaps it was a new trend in nonfiction or maybe certain types of nonfiction. Just pondering writing trends :)

I'm going with the Urban Legend theory. :)

I've always been amazed that publishers will make a deal on a proposal without the benefit of reading the whole book. It's great for writers, but seems like a risk for publishers.

And then to take that a step farther and accept a proposal without sample chapters? Especially from an unknown writer? That just seems crazy to me.

I read in 77 Reasons Why Your Book was Rejected by Mike Nappa
that a publisher spends around $50,000 to bring a book to market. I could have the number wrong, but it was definitely in the tens of thousands range. Why would anyone put that kind of money on the table without first seeing a few sample chapters?

Again, I'm going with urband legend.
 

K1P1

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Definitely go with the submission guidelines. If they say to submit a chapter, then do. If not, then don't. Sometimes they just want to make sure you can write well--they don't necessarily want part of the book you're proposing. My publisher, before signing me for my first book, wanted copies of published articles and some self-published items to show to the rest of the editorial committee.

Maggie
 

susangpyp

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I sent two and that was enough to retain an agent, but she wanted three very polished chapters before we submitted to a publisher. We sent two and when the publisher asked for a third, we had it ready.
 

RCameron

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Following on these non-fiction submission questions, does the entire non-fiction manuscript have to be completed when you query an agent? It seems dicey at best to try to just submit a proposal with no chapters at all actually written, but must the whole work be completed at the time of the query?

Let's say you have three very polished chapters for a 10-15 chapter book. Is that sufficient? Or would you look foolish if something was accepted based on three good chapters with nothing else finished? I'm sure it's always good to have more finished than not, but I'm wondering how far you can get with a semi-completed project.

If these questions are very naive, I apologize. I have experience with fiction but very little with non-fiction.
 

Siri Kirpal

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It depends on the genre of nonfiction. If it's memoir or a similar narrative, you'll need the whole thing. If it's how-to or academic or other general nonfiction, no, you don't need to have written the whole thing. But yes, you will need three or more chapters.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 

RCameron

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Thank you for the response. Yes, it would be more of a how-to or general nonfiction. So it seems you don't need to have it all complete if that is the case. Appreciate it.
 

CraftyCreations411

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I have a bunch of words that could be used about proposals but I don't think the moderators would let me get away with it. ;) Whomever came up with the ideas of proposals should be taken out behind the wood shed and paddled!

I've written my proposal and I'm happy with it. I still change things around when it's requested by an agent or the website. There's still things I don't get. An agent wants a synopsis and a proposal. A synopsis is usually part of the proposal so am I supposed to write two different ones?

The chapter summaries are another royal pain in the butt-insky. Some of my chapters can be summed up in a few sentences and some take a paragraph or more. Reading over them makes me wonder if I should drop some of the chapters.

I think it's the bio that hurts me. I have no writing credits or notable writing credits to my name so mentioning that I'm a mother, grandmother, vet, have two college degrees, and do crafts is about as exciting as whale poo at the bottom of the Pacific Ocean.

No matter which way we go, good luck to us all this upcoming year.

Candy
 

Siri Kirpal

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If you have to attach the proposal, always include a synopsis in the query letter. I've tried saying, the synopsis is in the proposal...but considering the luck I've had with that, I don't recommend it.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 

RCameron

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Following up on this, can someone either provide an example or link to of a non-fiction book proposal. I've Googled it naturally, but what I'm a little more interested is not an example that tells you the elements of a good proposal, but what it actually looks like.

That is, does one simply start with a query? If a query should include an actual proposal and sample chapters and you are supposed to paste that into the body of an email I worry about how informal that will all look. With fiction pasting a sample chapter into an email is easy, but with non-fiction the sample chapter(s) might not even be the most important part. You want your proposal to shine, and if it's in the body of an email format might look sloppy. But maybe agents are aware of this.

I'm just trying to get a sense how the query and submission process progresses, and what submissions actually look like. These aren't the days of mailing in a formally printed and bound proposal, so I'm wondering how polished proposals actually are and look when done by email. I guess if an attachment is asked for, you can make it look stronger but if not what to submissions look like?

Thanks!
 

CraftyCreations411

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Sorry RC, I can't be of any help. I've been looking for a couple of years and haven't found one online. I'm sure you don't want to hear this but if you buy the book, Ten Book Proposals that Sold, or something along that lines, (I can't find my copy to get the right title and author,) I think Mark Larsen wrote it. His book on proposals is really great. I didn't want to buy a book on proposals but in the end I'm glad I did.

Some of the websites have the basics of proposals down and what's supposed to go where but I found them confusing and then when agents have their own way of doing them, it makes it worse. I made each section of mine an individual file so that when agents only ask for certain parts, I can just send those parts.

There are certain parts of a proposal that I can't figure out how they pertain to my book. Thanks to Siri, I got through it. Siri is totally awesome and extremely helpful.

Good luck with writing one. I find them very difficult but if I can sell one book from my proposal, I'll be super happy. I'll definitely be doing the happy dance!

Candy
 

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I have generally found that the publishers I have approached had a very specific proposal structure outlined on their website, and I followed that exactly
 

CraftyCreations411

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I have generally found that the publishers I have approached had a very specific proposal structure outlined on their website, and I followed that exactly


You said that much better than I did with fewer words!

One of the things I've noticed about agent websites, some agents want just certain parts and others want the whole kit and caboodle.

(I'll go hide in my corner now.)

Candy
 

Siri Kirpal

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Thanks, Crafty!

Yes, if it says just send a query, do that. If it says, send a proposal, send the whole thing. Paste it in unless it says to attach. Agents/publishers often have very specific ground rules for their proposals. Follow those as best you can.

If I ever sell a book or attract an agent based on the proposal, I promise to post the whole thing somewhere in SYW. Oddly, I have two nonfic books published and neither sold on the proposal, but on the writing and TOC and my credentials only.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 

Helix

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I'm going with the Urban Legend theory. :)

I've always been amazed that publishers will make a deal on a proposal without the benefit of reading the whole book. It's great for writers, but seems like a risk for publishers.


It's definitely not an urban legend! It's how I picked up my (unagented) non-fic deal. I'm quite happy with publishers taking the risk too. Good ones are able to do the calculations.
 

RCameron

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Thanks for all the replies. Link to PDF examples is very good, but here is the question again. If an agent asked for an attachment, those would look great. But if they say paste into an email, that will break down a bit. I would certainly strive to have a great looking proposal and will have it ready to go, but if a rep says paste some elements of that into an email your nice polish goes out the window. But I suspect may agents know this and can't be overly critical in that regard. I guess you have to follow each agency's instructions and make some judgement calls.

Definitely less straight forward than fiction and more of a case by case type of thing. Thanks again for the input.

RC