Why I Won't Beta Read Your Novel

Unimportant said:

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Holy Moses on a pogo stick. I don't know whether to send the mods cookies and gin, or to beg for the opportunity to be a mod so I too can experience those train wrecks first-hand.

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modded another board for a bit....all the irritation of herpes without any of the fun. I'm just thankful others are foolish...noble, I mean, enough to step up.


it IS too bad they can't just do a PM dig and find out the person who threatened the research thread guy who mentioned killing a dog though.....totally different thread, but occasionally some really not cool shit goes down in any board :-( (end derail)

AW Admin said:

Exactly. There's a great deal that goes on in the background in terms of Rep comments and PMs, and even emails.

A fairly gentle PM reminding a member that courtesy is expected, and noting the availability of the Report post button

, and pointing out that members can always PM MacAllister about problems with a Mod, that is met with a response referring to censorship and first amendment rights and the Constitution and an additional hostile reference to another member, is not going end well.

For general reference, it's not OK to second guess mod decisions in public. Use a PM. You can always PM MacAllister the board owner if you have concerns. She takes them very seriously.

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When I first joined I was used to the 'everything goes" structure of media outlet message boards. I was getting in trouble with the MODs all the time. I wasn't banned thank God I love this site. A few times I knew I was naughty. A couple times I was shocked when I had angered a Mod. I always tried to PM the mod for clarification. I have never received a response from a Mod after I PMed them for clarification. I was very hurt about the lack of response. I have since accepted no one owes me an explanation. If it was obvious to them why I angered them, I accepted it should be obvious to me even though it still wasn't obvious to me. I have PMed other posters when they were angry with me and although I still disagreed with them, they gave amazing, thoughtful responses. I do see new members getting in trouble here more than the old members which seems perfectly natural. I think its because new members are presuming the rules here are the same as the media outlets. I haven't been in trouble since around my 60th post. I make sure I'm very very careful, fearful and paranoid now about anything i say before I say it because i'm not always sure whether something I say will anger a mod. I take full responsibility. I'm too self-revealing and I see humor sometimes at inappropriate moments. I need a short leash sometimes - fear and paranoia work for me. I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. I don't want to be left shaking from head to toe with shame, confusion and hurt because I've angered a Mod. As I've been wisely told by AW mods. This is a privately owned, writer site. I've been told this site is very different than Slate, Washington Post, Los Angeles Times, the other sites that were my frame of reference. I'm thinking the more gregarious new members are making presumptions about the lay of the land.

That's why the site has pretty extensive newbie guidelines. And when you join, if you post in the "Welcome" thread, people send you links to all of that. I have a feeling some newbies never bother to read it.

That said, it was clear to me even before reading the newbie stuff -- heck, just from lurking -- that this is a diverse community where people actually know one another, and that you can't just mouth off at random, at least without consequences. It's sort of like a big, work-related cocktail party. You can have fun, but you always want to be mindful of the impression you make.

Anyway. I"ll stop derailing the thread now. (I seem to recall something about that in the newbie guidelines... )

Timmy V. said:

When I first joined I was used to the 'everything goes" structure of media outlet message boards.

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I was on a board like that once. It splintered off from an online community where there was a lot of pressure (maybe too much?) to be civil in discourse, so the board went to the other extreme and was a complete free-for-all. I knew and liked many of the people who posted there, but I didn't stick around for long. Too much potential for nastiness. I like a board where there can be rousing debates, but also where someone who's in need of help can find a safe place, and for that, rules are necessary.

... digression over.

One more comment, then I'll stop. I read this:

Queen of Swords: I like a board where there can be rousing debates, but also where someone who's in need of help can find a safe place, and for that, rules are necessary.

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and yep, I agree. Without rules, it could get ugly, but this?

Timmy V.: I make sure I'm very very careful, fearful and paranoid now about anything i say before I say it because i'm not always sure whether something I say will anger a mod.

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Yikes.

One more comment, then I'll stop. I read this: Quote:
Queen of Swords: I like a board where there can be rousing debates, but also where someone who's in need of help can find a safe place, and for that, rules are necessary.
and yep, I agree. Without rules, it could get ugly, but this? Quote:
Timmy V.: I make sure I'm very very careful, fearful and paranoid now about anything i say before I say it because i'm not always sure whether something I say will anger a mod.
Yikes.

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Oh.My.Dog

I wish I'd seen that when he posted it so I could have devoured him immediately. I mean, how dare he not capitalize the "I" in "i'm."

Timmy V. said:

I make sure I'm very very careful, fearful and paranoid now about anything i say before I say it because i'm not always sure whether something I say will anger a mod.

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I'm very much the same, though it's less about stepping on a mod's toes, and more of a new awareness about how I want to present myself, professionally.

On other media sites, I'm just one idiot out of a hundred other idiots. Here? I'm trying to be a writing professional. I'm not perfect, but every time I post I ask myself: Is this something I'm willing to have searched out on Google by a potential publisher/agent?

If the answer to that is questionable, I don't post. Usually. Sometimes my hot head gets the best of me.

dunno about the worries; I've gotten a few nastygrams, but still, considering how blunt I am, you gotta be pretty douchey to get a ban....really. Fear is unfounded, methinks.

quicklime said:

it IS too bad they can't just do a PM dig and find out the person who threatened the research thread guy who mentioned killing a dog though.....totally different thread, but occasionally some really not cool shit goes down in any board :-( (end derail)

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That was sad. Most people I've encountered here so far have been reasonable and helpful. It was so wrong for that mystery person to send a threatening message-to a newbie of all people. This should be a safe place to develop ideas - and usually is.

Sometimes people (hmm, like me) don't articulate as clearly as they think online and offend, when no offense was intended. But, an apology goes a long way. If someone doesn't get that much, then perhaps this isn't the place for them.

I haven't taken the leap yet into offering to Beta. Right now commenting in SYW seems a good place to get my critiquing / feedback toes wet.

Haggis said:

Oh.My.Dog

I wish I'd seen that when he posted it so I could have devoured him immediately. I mean, how dare he not capitalize the "I" in "i'm."

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Oh heck, if AW member iwannabepublished goes missing or gets roughed up on some corner, I know which mod I'm... not saying a word about *double checks all upper and lowercase usage* phew.

G. Applejack said:

Here? I'm trying to be a writing professional. I'm not perfect, but every time I post I ask myself: Is this something I'm willing to have searched out on Google by a potential publisher/agent?

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This.

And let me second (third? fourth?) the thanks for this thread. As someone who's never asked another writer to critique her work, and still gets the shakes just thinking about it, I need all the guidance I can get.

Unimportant said:

Getting this thread back on track.....

One thing that makes me less likely to crit (beta-read, or on SYW) is if the author asks for a 'gentle' crit or says they can't handle 'tough' or 'negative' criticism. Yes, I understand that it's hard to hear your writing isn't perfect. Yes, I understand that only a minority of authors actually like snarky critiques. Yes, I understand that authors new to writing (or the genre) may not grok shorthand like "As you know, Bob" dialogue or TSTL character. Yes, I know that few authors would appreciate seing this cartoon in a crit.

But quite honestly, I'm really not sure what an author wants when they ask for gentle. Is that code for the author wanting to hear only about the bits which worked well, with no commentary at all about what didn't work? Do they only want the English critiqued without any mention of characterisation, plot, POV, or other craft issues? Do they want everything prefaced with "IMO"? If every sentence is grammatically incorrect and the character is dull and the plot is just one cliche after another, how many issues can the critiquer address before they've crossed into ungentle territory?

The more info an author provides about what kind of feedback they're looking for, the more likely I am to crit.

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Two thumbs up on this from me (or one rep point, at least). I'm not sure what gentle means either. Personally, I still try to respond to those, but I always feel weird and cautious when I do. The last thing I want to do is spiral someone into a fit of depression.

In general, I don't understand why people put things up for critique if they're not ready for critical feedback.

I know that when I put things up to be critiqued I just want honesty. What doesn't work in it? Any suggestions?

I've never once read a critique that hurt my feelings. My sense of self-worth comes from accepting mistakes and trying to make things better. Not from hitting a home run every time I go up to bat.

Unimportant said:

<snipped for space>But quite honestly, I'm really not sure what an author wants when they ask for gentle. Is that code for the author wanting to hear only about the bits which worked well, with no commentary at all about what didn't work? Do they only want the English critiqued without any mention of characterisation, plot, POV, or other craft issues? Do they want everything prefaced with "IMO"? If every sentence is grammatically incorrect and the character is dull and the plot is just one cliche after another, how many issues can the critiquer address before they've crossed into ungentle territory?

The more info an author provides about what kind of feedback they're looking for, the more likely I am to crit.

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When a writer puts something up for crit, they have the right to describe exactly what kind of crit they are looking for. In the same way, you (metaphorical you) have the right to decide not to crit for that person.

To me a gentle crit is just that, a crit that is gentle. It isn't generous or false. It just means that you state your opinions gently. We know how to use words to evoke different emotions, so we should know how we are stating something, and the emotions that might come from them.

Sydneyd said:

When a writer puts something up for crit, they have the right to describe exactly what kind of crit they are looking for. In the same way, you (metaphorical you) have the right to decide not to crit for that person.

To me a gentle crit is just that, a crit that is gentle. It isn't generous or false. It just means that you state your opinions gently. We know how to use words to evoke different emotions, so we should know how we are stating something, and the emotions that might come from them.

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I'll give a pass to younger writers asking for gentle crits. I've felt bad a few times when I critted in my usual (very direct) style and found out I'd just gutted a teenager.

But. I don't have a lot of respect for someone with serious professional aspirations who can't handle the thought of getting a thrashing in critique. 'Cause if you think a harsh critique stings, what will you do when you get 1-star reviews on Amazon?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydneyd
To me a gentle crit is just that, a crit that is gentle. It isn't generous or false. It just means that you state your opinions gently. We know how to use words to evoke different emotions, so we should know how we are stating something, and the emotions that might come from them.

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If I may. . .
Example: marys love was heartworming.

Gentle crit: Proper names s/b capitalized: Mary. "Love" is possessive, so add 's after Mary: Mary's. s/b heartwarming.

Not so much: You're killing me, you realize that. Surely by now you know that proper names are capped, not to mention, Mary is the first word of your sentence, and oh, she doesn't have heartworms, for God's sake (maybe I shouldn't presume), so: Mary's love was heartwarming.

btw, you might want to revise that to active voice--

kkbe said:

Not so much: You're killing me, you realize that. Surely by now you know that proper names are capped, not to mention, Mary is the first word of your sentence, and oh, she doesn't have heartworms, for God's sake (maybe I shouldn't presume), so: Mary's love was heartwarming.

btw, you might want to revise that to active voice--

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Well, there's a difference between "direct" and "asshole."

Amadan said:

Well, there's a difference between "direct" and "asshole."

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But there's not a difference between 'thrashing' and 'asshole'?

I don't need the kid-glove treatment but I'd prefer not to get 'thrashed' as I would define 'thrashed'. Unless 'thrashed' is your direct, which is how you would define it.

Now we have competing definitions for something as simple as 'be direct and honest but don't gut me please'.

Would that be a preferable way to ask for criticism?

Amadan: Well, there's a difference between "direct" and "asshole."

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I presume you were being "direct."

Amadan said:

But. I don't have a lot of respect for someone with serious professional aspirations who can't handle the thought of getting a thrashing in critique.

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... you don't have to worry about me in that regard.
I can handle thrashing critiques!
For the most part

bearilou said:

But there's not a difference between 'thrashing' and 'asshole'?

I don't need the kid-glove treatment but I'd prefer not to get 'thrashed' as I would define 'thrashed'. Unless 'thrashed' is your direct, which is how you would define it.

Now we have competing definitions for something as simple as 'be direct and honest but don't gut me please'.

Would that be a preferable way to ask for criticism?

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Direct is "This is very cliched writing" or "You really need to work on your subject-verb agreement" or "Your main character is not very interesting, she doesn't have much personality" or "I have no idea what's going on here."

Amadan said:

Direct is "This is very cliched writing" or "You really need to work on your subject-verb agreement" or "Your main character is not very interesting, she doesn't have much personality" or "I have no idea what's going on here."

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Okay. Never had a problem with direct. But what's a thrashing?

I guess in the end, it doesn't really matter because at this point in our conversation, it's a discussion about my comfort level and your directness level, which in this case align very nicely.

It comes back around to the author and the beta talking about what they want and what they can give. Possibly a test drive beta of a chapter to see if it's a good fit and saying farewell when it's not.