Now you can beat your wife !!

Plot Device said:

So you're saying:

A) A high frequency of a wife choosing to refuse her husband can lead to ...

C) marital strife which ...

D) is partly the woman's fault, and yet ...

E) no case of marital strife should ever justify/lead to force and/or violence.

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Wouldn't it be MOSTLY the woman's fault? I mean if she's the one refusing...

Well...I'll certainly say disagreement in sex drives generally causes marital (or relationship) strife. Doesn't matter who's refusing who. However, it's no one's fault, just something that should either have been dealt with beforehand or compromised on. You can't blame people for their sex drives, but it's something important to be dealt with in any meaningful relationship.

Needless to say, that's no justification for rape.

kuwisdelu said:

However, it's no one's fault, just something that should either have been dealt with beforehand or compromised on.

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I disagree. It's the fault of whoever is doing the refusing.

This is a problem in the UK as well. People need to appreciate America for the fact that unlike the UK and Australia, we've yet to allow Islamic fundamentalists to dictate our laws (it's only a matter of time before Australia starts giving them exceptions like Britain did.) I hope I'm wrong but I'm probably right.

I would say refusal would lead to strife only in a troubled marraige where discussion and work on the problem did not occur.

I would say "marital strife" is meaningless. And where there is disagreement it is pointless to even thinking of laying blame. If there are disagreements and they are seen as individually owned, this is a troubled marraige.

I would further suggest that once violence (including rape) occured the Austrlian police will apply the law, as written and in full. Including in most cases that the abused spouse need not press charges for an arrest to occur.

So if it seems a person is being abused and may not be willing to seek help, this is where the neighbors and community have a role to play. Australia has a far different culture to the UK--and I do not know of a case even in the UK where islamic law is respected by the rule of law. Only a few idiots in positions of purely religious authority (Islamic and Christian) have even suggested that it should. Those in the police force have rejected these suggestion as counter to the innate need for the impartial rule of law as laid out by the Westminster system.

As for the refuser being at fault. If a man tortures and kills his wife's dog in the morning, how is not having sex in the evening her fault? Even if laying blame was helpful, it cannot be done in a blanket fashion. And that overlooks the notion that an unwilling women should submit to her body being "used" because it is her duty to please her husband. Why not the other way around? If not having sex would please the wife, this is equally the husbands duty to please her--especially as he has other ways to acheive orgasm and sex with an unwilling partner would seem to serve no other purpose.

[/horrified rant]

Shadow_Ferret said:

Wouldn't it be MOSTLY the woman's fault? I mean if she's the one refusing...

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Shadow_Ferret said:

I disagree. It's the fault of whoever is doing the refusing.

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Say the husband is a complete jerk. Refuses to work. Refuses to bathe. Refuses to do a thing around the house to help, and treats his wife like a maid. Would it still be the woman's fault?

Haggis said:

Say the husband is a complete jerk. Refuses to work. Refuses to bathe. Refuses to do a thing around the house to help, and treats his wife like a maid. Would it still be the woman's fault?

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That scenario, no.

I was using the sex as blackmail scenario. Withholding sex until she gets her way. Or as punishment.

Ferret,

Sex, when wanted, is a really awesome thing.

Sex, when not wanted, is emotionally and, for a woman, physically painful. It leaves you with a sick feeling in your stomach and a strong desire not to be touched by the person you just had sex with.

It's not a woman's "fault" if she's trying to avoid that second feeling. She shouldn't be put in that position.

EDIT:

Wait, nope...we're in agreement, I guess. Withholding sex as blackmail or punishment or whatever sucks, will cause problems in a marriage, and would be the woman's fault.

Monkey said:

Ferret,

Sex, when wanted, is a really awesome thing.

Sex, when not wanted, is emotionally and, for a woman, physically painful. It leaves you with a sick feeling in your stomach and a strong desire not to be touched by the person you just had sex with.

It's not a woman's "fault" if she's trying to avoid that second feeling. She shouldn't be put in that position.

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I have no idea what you're talking about because it isn't what I was talking about.

ETA: Nevermind, we agree on something.

ETA2: And at no time have I ever argued it's OK for the man to force himself upon her.

Then you might need to restate what ypu meant because I read it the same way.

veinglory said:

Then you might need to restate what ypu meant because I read it the same way.

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Me? Read what the same way?

IIRC, in countries where sharia law is the law of the land, the clerics make the laws. If sharia law were the law of the land in Australia, rape and wife beating would now be legal (much like it is in Iraq).

IMO it's worse than the fact that it USED TO BE okay in christianity, or that men exist in this country that see no problem with spousal rape. Islam(ist extremists) appear to not see women as equals.

Captshady said:

IMO it's worse than the fact that it USED TO BE okay in christianity, or that men exist in this country that see no problem with spousal rape. Islam(ist extremists) appear to not see women as equals.

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How is it worse? I doubt when it was more accepted in Christianity that those men saw women as equals, either. In fact, there are Biblical passages that suggest they aren't.

The problems of spousal rape and misogyny transcend any one religion or time period. Islamic extremists own their part of the ugliness, but they don't get credit for the whole pile.

kuwisdelu said:

How is it worse?

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It's happening now.

That fact that it happened in our history doesn't excuse it happening in the now.

Captshady said:

It's happening now.

That fact that it happened in our history doesn't excuse it happening in the now.

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Gotcha. I think. I had thought you meant there was something that made it more excusable when Christians did it.

kuwisdelu said:

Gotcha. I think. I had thought you meant there was something that made it more excusable when Christians did it.

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Not at all. The fact that Christians did it shouldn't excuse the fact that it's happening now.

They should make a law like this in America for ex-wives.

Better yet, if one party decides to do something (like cheat for instance) it's ok for the other party involved to beat them senseless.

Well, sadly, there are still people who call themselves Christians in the US and live by the guideline that a woman's body belongs to her husband. I know several in the church I used to go to.

Vile behavior has no boundaries between religion, gender, or race.

James81 said:

They should make a law like this in America for ex-wives.

Better yet, if one party decides to do something (like cheat for instance) it's ok for the other party involved to beat them senseless.

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The only concern i have with this is that there are some vile, vindictive ex-spouses. Just as some spouses will use their children against each other, I can totally see some women claming marital rape just to punish their husbands.

Clair Dickson said:

I can totally see some women claming marital rape just to punish their husbands.

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I have the solution to that too.

When it's proven to be false, we take the women that do this out and crucify them (not lethal injection, I'm talking nails and boards to a cross).

kuwisdelu said:

Good news: I googled it myself. This was the case a few years ago (well...is the 90's still "a few years ago"?). It's since been criminalized all across the US.

Bad news: Many states still treat it as a lesser crime with more lenient penalties. IMO, penalties for rape are too lenient as it is.

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Nice. That's just peachy. Still, at least it's officially a crime.

kuwisdelu said:

Bad news: Many states still treat it as a lesser crime with more lenient penalties. IMO, penalties for rape are too lenient as it is.

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Quoted for truth.

veinglory said:

I would say "marital strife" is meaningless. And where there is disagreement it is pointless to even thinking of laying blame. If there are disagreements and they are seen as individually owned, this is a troubled marraige.

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Also quoted for truth.

Haggis said:

Say the husband is a complete jerk. Refuses to work. Refuses to bathe. Refuses to do a thing around the house to help, and treats his wife like a maid. Would it still be the woman's fault?

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At that point, I would argue she is justified in attempting to resolve it, and if it cannot be resolved, to divorce the $*!)% already.

No matter what is going on, and no matter who is doing it, sexual violence, or violence and use of force of any kind is not justified in a relationship of this nature. Work on the issues, and squeeze in an anger management class or two, but don't try to justify away what everyone seems to be able to agree is deplorable.

Plot Device said:

The phrase "do not use a stick larger than your thumb" suddenly came to me.

Good old Google.

http://books.google.com/books?id=tw...&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result

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Just watch the movie "the Duchess" last night. That exact phrase came up. Of course it was the most F'd up movie ever.