Querying Agents After Self-Pubbing

MandyHarbin · Nov 7, 2013

FYI, #4 on that list, Katy Evans, is a formerly self-pubbed author. MINE is the followup to her self-pubbed NYT bestseller REAL. Once she hit the list AND stayed on it, an agent and a publisher snapped her up. Gallery re-released REAL under their imprint. MINE just came out this week. To my knowledge, she has never released another book before REAL. She is an example of someone who self-pubbed properly (hired editors, designers, PR peeps), the stars alined, the waters parted, and the gods smiled down on her.

This goes in line with what I said about agents watching the lists. Self-pubbing doesn't have to be a negative stigma. The majority of people probably didn't know Katy Evans was self-pubbed before traditionally pubbed.

juniper · Nov 7, 2013

WeaselFire said:
Electronic publishing has changed that world, and those opportunities.

Yes, more opportunities, but opportunities are not all equal. Some require much more work - and money - to succeed. If you're willing - and able - to produce a good product without the middlemen, go for it! I have a friend who's self-pubbed about 5 titles now, and she seems happy with her decision. She hires editors, cover designers, etc.

WeaselFire said:
You no longer need to be published by a major house to make it as an author (John Locke, et. al.).

John Locke isn't really a good author to use as someone who "made it" since he revealed that he bought a bunch of his 5-star reviews, and encourages others to do the same.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/26/business/book-reviewers-for-hire-meet-a-demand-for-online-raves.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

MandyHarbin · Nov 7, 2013

WeaselFire said:
You no longer need to be published by a major house to make it as an author (John Locke, et. al.).

Jeff

I agree with you here, but what authors have to do is decide on their own just what "making it" is. Granted, the explosion of ebooks has opened more doors for authors, but it doesn't mean big 5 is out of the game. Personally, I think they should have embraced it sooner, but they are slowly creating digital-first imprints, releasing ebooks faster, etc. It'll be hard for the small indie publisher to compete with the level of marketing/distribution/etc. a major publisher can achieve.

If I had my choice between a digital release from a Random House imprint or a digital release from a Mom&Pop indie publisher, I'm going with Random because they can offer me more. If Mom&Pop is my only choice, then chances are I'll self-pub...because why would I want to give Mom&Pop a cut of my royalties when most pubs at this level think their job STOPS when the book goes live on Amazon. I can hire their same editors, cover designers, and typesetters and do it myself.

So I agree big 5 isn't necessary to make it in publishing... but neither are the fly-by-night small indie publishers.

juniper · Nov 7, 2013

MandyHarbin said:
So I agree big 5 isn't necessary to make it in publishing... but neither are the fly-by-night small indie publishers.

I think most of these are actually micro-presses, rather than "small." There are many good, well-regarded small publishers.

I've seen several local micro-presses who do just as you say - get the book up on Amazon, then consider their job done. And sometimes their covers and editing aren't that good.

So yeah, between micro- or self-pubbing, the only difference is that the writer can say, "Yes, a publisher bought my book. I'm not self-published."

And sometimes, that badge of "being published" is all a writer wants.

MandyHarbin · Nov 7, 2013

juniper said:
And sometimes, that badge of "being published" is all a writer wants.

That's so true. After years of queries and rejections, it's easy to get caught up in that first acceptance and forget that signing on the dotted line is a business decision that must be thoroughly thought out.

WeaselFire · Nov 7, 2013

MandyHarbin said:
So I agree big 5 isn't necessary to make it in publishing... but neither are the fly-by-night small indie publishers.

Nobody wants the fly-by-night operators around. And sometimes it's tough to tell who they are. That's a major distinction between the big 5 and indie publishers.

Over the years though, I've found that no publisher, or author/editor/agent/reader is perfect for all books. Or for all goals of all authors. And that's the toughest part for beginners to see.

Jeff

djf881 · Nov 12, 2013

Christyp said:
Here's a conversation that came up between a bunch of authors and myself. One author self-pubbed (I've done it myself in the past) and was wondering if there was any point for him to attempt to find an agent or publisher for his book. I said, why not. I mean, self-pubbing doesn't have the stigma it did in the past. We've all seen the numbers of Indies published on Kindle and others.

Just wondering what your thoughts and experiences were. Other than Amanda Hocking type success, has any of you (or someone you know) ever self-published, only to successfully sell your book to a traditional house?

If you self-published it, the sales figures matter. If you didn't sell at least 10,000 copies, it's most likely dead to agents and publishers. This is why I adamantly caution authors against treating self-publishing as a route to mainstream publishing.

MandyHarbin · Nov 12, 2013

djf881 said:
If you self-published it, the sales figures matter. If you didn't sell at least 10,000 copies, it's most likely dead to agents and publishers. This is why I adamantly caution authors against treating self-publishing as a route to mainstream publishing.

I commented last month on another thread discussing sales numbers here http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8508070&postcount=6

All 10k in sales is going to do is maybe help you when shopping a new, unpublished (in any form) manuscript. But I do agree that self-publishing a book is not a way to get THAT book traditionally published. There are no guarantees even for those of us who've sold many times that amount in a short amount of time.

djf881 · Nov 12, 2013

MandyHarbin said:
I commented last month on another thread discussing sales numbers here http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8508070&postcount=6

All 10k in sales is going to do is maybe help you when shopping a new, unpublished (in any form) manuscript. But I do agree that self-publishing a book is not a way to get THAT book traditionally published. There are no guarantees even for those of us who've sold many times that amount in a short amount of time.

I meant 10,000 copies of that work alone; 10 different things that have sold 1k each are of no interest to the mainstream publishing industry.

I suspect many agents will probably reject a book that has been previously self-published in almost every circumstance unless it has at least 25,000 sales for that title. However, I can imagine, if it was a manuscript they'd be eager to represent under other circumstances, that if that book had sold 10,000 copies, they might not reject it on the basis of being previously self-published.

But I think publishers are probably done lunging at every self-pub book that did 60k copies at $0.99, because they've acquired some of those for large advances that have not done well at higher prices. My impression is that, if a publisher would not have acquired a manuscript through its normal acquisition process, editors will not want to deal with it, even if it sold 100k e-books.

MandyHarbin · Nov 12, 2013

djf881 said:
I meant 10,000 copies of that work alone; 10 different things that have sold 1k each are of no interest to the mainstream publishing industry.

I suspect many agents will probably reject a book that has been previously self-published in almost every circumstance unless it has at least 25,000 sales for that title. However, I can imagine, if it was a manuscript they'd be eager to represent under other circumstances, that if that book had sold 10,000 copies, they might not reject it on the basis of being previously self-published.

But I think publishers are probably done lunging at every self-pub book that did 60k copies at $0.99, because they've acquired some of those for large advances that have not done well at higher prices. My impression is that, if a publisher would not have acquired a manuscript through its normal acquisition process, editors will not want to deal with it, even if it sold 100k e-books.

Totally understand what you were saying about the 10k copies.

There's a big difference between what an agent will take on and what a publisher will accept. My experience has been that agents won't handle self-pubbed books unless they think they have a chance at selling them to mainstream publishers. So even though an agent might say they won't even consider taking on self-pubbed unless sales are at least at 20k (i.e. http://jetreidliterary.blogspot.com/2012/10/some-hard-numbers.html), it doesn't mean they'll automatically offer representation.

As for me, I've told my agent that I'm not eager to sell rights to a U.S. pub on my self-pubbed series. Creative Artist Agency contacted me about the film/television rights once the first book reached number 1 in teen romance. I pointed them in the direction of my agent. If they work out a deal, I'm not opposed to seeing if a U.S. pub wants to make a deal on it too. But right now, I want book deals to focus on my unpublished manuscripts.

Laer Carroll · Nov 15, 2013

I see a couple of problems with several of the responses so far.

One is that not all agents are clones of each other. They don’t all feel the same about self-published works, for instance. Some don’t care if a book has sold a few copies. (They may even prefer it did not.) They are confident that most of the time they can tell if a book is worth their effort to sell it.

The second is dividing publishers into the Big 5 and “indie” publishers—the same over-simplification error of the “agents are clones” thinking.

They come in all sizes, from those who publish two or three books a year to the mid-level “indies” who publish several dozen. Such as Baen (67 in 2012), DAW &Scholastic (53 each), Subterranean (49), and so on. Some are long-established, some very recent.

Publishers (of all sizes) also have different target audiences. Baen, for instance, focuses on military SF & fantasy readers, but are pushing into more kinds of books each year.

So quit anguishing about whether or not your book was self-published. Read the agent’s description of what want. If they do not say they refuse self-pubs, see if your book otherwise is what they want. If so, send in a query.

AnneGlynn · Nov 15, 2013

djf881 said:
I think publishers are probably done lunging at every self-pub book that did 60k copies at $0.99, because they've acquired some of those for large advances that have not done well at higher prices.

Can you list a few of these failures?

I'm not disputing what you've written but I'd love to know which deals did and didn't work out. I've recently found Hocking's novels at Target, so I'm guessing she's doing well for her print publisher. I can't find Locke's work anywhere except Amazon, so I'm guessing he hasn't been a money-maker for his print publisher. But it's all a guess.

Which self-published authors signed a big deal and the deal didn't work out?

MandyHarbin · Nov 15, 2013

Laer Carroll said:
I see a couple of problems with several of the responses so far.

One is that not all agents are clones of each other. They don’t all feel the same about self-published works, for instance. Some don’t care if a book has sold a few copies. (They may even prefer it did not.) They are confident that most of the time they can tell if a book is worth their effort to sell it.

The second is dividing publishers into the Big 5 and “indie” publishers—the same over-simplification error of the “agents are clones” thinking.

They come in all sizes, from those who publish two or three books a year to the mid-level “indies” who publish several dozen. Such as Baen (67 in 2012), DAW &Scholastic (53 each), Subterranean (49), and so on. Some are long-established, some very recent.

Publishers (of all sizes) also have different target audiences. Baen, for instance, focuses on military SF & fantasy readers, but are pushing into more kinds of books each year.

So quit anguishing about whether or not your book was self-published. Read the agent’s description of what want. If they do not say they refuse self-pubs, see if your book otherwise is what they want. If so, send in a query.

I was speaking from personal experience. I talked to several of my top-choice agents via email and phone when offers started coming in (I cited these agents in another thread somewhere) and what I was told of their experience. As for there being a range of publishers, I get that, too, but I already publish for digital-first publishers (and have connections at others). I'm only interested in my agent getting deals with the larger pubs, so I didn't ask about the smaller publishers willingness to take on previously self-pubbed material. I'm sure there are some out there that will re-publish previously self-pubbed material with minimal sales...I just didn't ask about those.

Querying Agents After Self-Pubbing

MandyHarbin

juniper

Always curious.

MandyHarbin

juniper

Always curious.

MandyHarbin

WeaselFire

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djf881

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MandyHarbin

djf881

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MandyHarbin

Laer Carroll

Aerospace engineer turned writer

AnneGlynn

If you don't try, you can't fail

MandyHarbin