Is Neil Gaiman Right?

For many people, that free access to a computer is what helps them educate themselves. I went to school with people who had no computers, and the school library shut down when the school did. How else would it have been possible for them to do their homework? Teachers don't assign posters anymore, they assign power-points. And it's pretty hard to type a paper and cite your (required) internet sources with no internet access. Libraries were also the only place they could fill out their college applications (I don't know of a single one that takes paper apps anymore), and since nearly all job applications are online now, how else are people to be able to do these things? It's nice to say people should go someplace else, but where exactly are they to go?

Little Anonymous Me said:

For many people, that free access to a computer is what helps them educate themselves. I went to school with people who had no computers, and the school library shut down when the school did. How else would it have been possible for them to do their homework? Teachers don't assign posters anymore, they assign power-points. And it's pretty hard to type a paper and cite your (required) internet sources with no internet access. Libraries were also the only place they could fill out their college applications (I don't know of a single one that takes paper apps anymore), and since nearly all job applications are online now, how else are people to be able to do these things? It's nice to say people should go someplace else, but where exactly are they to go?

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Also, over here, those who are receiving benefits/welfare its a requirement to have an online account to prove that you are job searching. If you don't, they stop your benefits. For a significant proportion, the public library is their only computer access.

gothicangel said:

Also, over here, those who are receiving benefits/welfare its a requirement to have an online account to prove that you are job searching. If you don't, they stop your benefits. For a significant proportion, the public library is their only computer access.

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I'm on foodstamps and I didn't even think of that. Thanks!

Ken said:

Libraries are for books and information and research.

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That's a fairly narrow view.

There's a lot more to a library than that. Baby/child storytime, homework help for teens, teen book club, summer reading challenge for kids, adult book club, various community meetings, etc.

Why should games be banned on a library computer? Following this logic, should the local chess club not be able to hold their monthly meet-ups in the library?

With budget cuts and outright closures, a lot of libraries are being forced to rethink what they provide and how they do it. Personally, I'm terrified that they're going to be privatized.

The topic that Gaiman didn't touch upon is the amount of people who are mentally ill or homeless who use the library. Librarians are often, by extension, social workers. Sometimes it's not pretty. But I shudder to think where some of those people would go/what they would do if they weren't occupied with books/magazines/computers.

Little Anonymous Me said:

For many people, that free access to a computer is what helps them educate themselves. I went to school with people who had no computers, and the school library shut down when the school did. How else would it have been possible for them to do their homework? Teachers don't assign posters anymore, they assign power-points. And it's pretty hard to type a paper and cite your (required) internet sources with no internet access. Libraries were also the only place they could fill out their college applications (I don't know of a single one that takes paper apps anymore), and since nearly all job applications are online now, how else are people to be able to do these things? It's nice to say people should go someplace else, but where exactly are they to go?

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... well if schools close down then that's a real difficulty.
Barring that though schools are the place for a lot of stuff that goes on in libraries, IMO.
Schools should be open after classes and be accessible by students.
Comps should be provided. That seems very reasonable to me.
Libraries should not be made to pick up the slack.
It's nice that they do. But really it shouldn't be foisted on them, IMO.

gothicangel said:

Also, over here, those who are receiving benefits/welfare its a requirement to have an online account to prove that you are job searching. If you don't, they stop your benefits. For a significant proportion, the public library is their only computer access.

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Interesting to know. Wasn't aware of that.
Job centers would seem more like the place for access of the sort.
That would make it more structured too and beneficial.

In general, libraries just seem to be wearing too many hats these days.
IMO.

KVL said:

That's a fairly narrow view.

There's a lot more to a library than that. Baby/child storytime, homework help for teens, teen book club, summer reading challenge for kids, adult book club, various community meetings, etc.

Why should games be banned on a library computer? Following this logic, should the local chess club not be able to hold their monthly meet-ups in the library?

With budget cuts and outright closures, a lot of libraries are being forced to rethink what they provide and how they do it. Personally, I'm terrified that they're going to be privatized.

The topic that Gaiman didn't touch upon is the amount of people who are mentally ill or homeless who use the library. Librarians are often, by extension, social workers. Sometimes it's not pretty. But I shudder to think where some of those people would go/what they would do if they weren't occupied with books/magazines/computers.

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Again. All this stuff is fine. But it shouldn't be foisted on libraries.
And it is not like they have unlimited resources or space.
Reading is important. Books are important.
They shouldn't be made to take a back corner.
And slowly but surely they are.

Ken said:

... well if schools close down then that's a real difficulty.
Barring that though schools are the place for a lot of stuff that goes on in libraries, IMO.
Schools should be open after classes and be accessible by students.
Comps should be provided. That seems very reasonable to me.
Libraries should not be made to pick up the slack.
It's nice that they do. But really it shouldn't be foisted on them, IMO.



Interesting to know. Wasn't aware of that.
Job centers would seem more like the place for access of the sort.
That would make it more structured too and beneficial.

In general, libraries just seem to be wearing too many hats these days.
IMO.

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I don't really see any reason libraries need to be "forced" to pick up the slack. They offer services such as loaning books and internet access, and people make what use of it they want.

If you want job centers to take up a lot of that stuff, then aren't you actually going to end up paying more money? You have to have a new building, a whole new set of administrative positions, pay more for more internet connections, more for utilities, etc. If the library already has the infrastructure, why shouldn't they take up some slack.

With all the horrible, invasive, expensive, destructive, silly things out government spends billions of dollars on, why are we trying to take down an incredibly useful, life-saving, joy-making set of services that cost each citizen a whole $31 a year?

Nobody has ever accidently dropped a library into a toilet.

Ken said:

Schools should be open after classes and be accessible by students.
Comps should be provided. That seems very reasonable to me.

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Aren't you the one complaining about tax dollars for libraries? Who do you think will pick up the tab for schools to stay open and providing computers? It ain't gonna happen for free, y'know.

shadowwalker said:

Aren't you the one complaining about tax dollars for libraries? Who do you think will pick up the tab for schools to stay open and providing computers? It ain't gonna happen for free, y'know.

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Liosse de Velishaf said:

If you want job centers to take up a lot of that stuff, then aren't you actually going to end up paying more money? You have to have a new building, a whole new set of administrative positions, pay more for more internet connections, more for utilities, etc.

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... good points !

I guess I am putting across two different ones myself.
A. Library cost.
B. Library use.

Am not really connecting either.
They're just two opinions I have.
To be considered separately.

With your feedback I'll attempt to consolidate them one day.
Fortunately my opinions are neither here nor there.
No legislation depends on it.
About the only thing that does is vanity.

I am right. You two are WRONG !

<---- one person who used the library to escape. I always felt safe there.

And reading was/is cool, too.

Have you ever taken a really good look at a children's book? They're big, and small, and sometimes card-board paged. They have soft fur on a kitty and a rubbery ball feels rubbery. The pages are often over-sized, and some have pop-out pages. (On some every page pops out.) I can't imagine any of these books feeling anything but simply flat if they are on a digital reader.

And how does a child feel the page, and look at you expectantly as you say, the monster is on the next page! Don't turn it! And he giggles and turns it anyhow.

A reader is great for books that are all text, but children's books are so much more. I took out a dozen books recently for a child, all different sizes and shapes. Reading a digital book is fine for an adult, or older child (though I've also seen chapter books and books for teenagers with pockets and envelopes, etc., in the pages.)

Reading a digital book to a little child would be a lot like reading television. Now, television is great and I love it. But when I say tell my grandson, go get the kitty book, he runs for it. It feels like a kitty and some of the pages meow and others you lift up to see what's underneath - a mouse? Another kitty?

Even my older grandson, just learning to read, likes the feel of the pages and the quiet a book entails. There's no, umm I'd rather play that video game - and push a button and the book is gone and we're playing a great video game, but...

I just see children's books as this gorgeous marvel of color and words and stiff pages, or paper pages. Just for the tactile stuff alone, I don't know how a digital book can replace that.

Libraries are an invaluable resource for people who don't have computers or who lack internet access for some reason. They can host seminars and classes for adults and children. They can provide summer and after school enrichment activities. Sometimes they have job boards. Sometimes they're just a place to kill a couple of hours when one is at loose ends. I know a couple of people who spent an hour or two each day as pre-teens at their local library after school, waiting for a parent to get home.

And yes, they still have books. In addition to standard paper books, they loan e-books, audio books (very important for people with visual impairments), large print books, etc. They have movies to check out too, and of course access to periodicals (often in e-format, but sometimes also in print), And a lot of the younger people I've chatted with on this site and on other writing sites, and many of my students (college) too, discover new authors (or older authors for that matter) at the library and check out books they need for school projects. I'm far from rich, but I have enough money to buy books that look interesting to me. But not everyone is so fortunate.

StephanieZie said:

Aside from whether or not libraries still have a place in modern society (I think they do), I'm one of those old (twenty-something) fuddy-duddies that don't believe digital readers will ever replace ink and paper books. They have their place, and if there are people who prefer to read on them, that's fine. But holding an electronic device will never instill the same feelings in me as holding a book.

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You're in good company. I prefer holding physical books. The feel and sound of the turning pages can't be replicated.

And with my reading speed, I give people the impression that I'm playing a game or something at the speed at which I tap on my mobile to turn the pages.

I realize computer access is very important, and I can see how libraries slid into providing it, but it irks me that people think they can afford smartphones or cable TV and not a computer and internet access. However, that's just me, and I wouldn't want schoolkids to suffer needlessly for the choices of their parents.

bonitakale said:

I realize computer access is very important, and I can see how libraries slid into providing it, but it irks me that people think they can afford smartphones or cable TV and not a computer and internet access. However, that's just me, and I wouldn't want schoolkids to suffer needlessly for the choices of their parents.

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Bear in mind, though, that for many it's not a matter of affording both, but one or the other. Computers aren't cheap, and internet access is some places is astronomical. I don't know of many people who can afford all of the above and don't, frankly. Too much hassle involved to run to the library for internet if you don't have to.

bookworm92 said:

And with my reading speed, I give people the impression that I'm playing a game or something at the speed at which I tap on my mobile to turn the pages.

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This is precisely the reason I think it's nice for libraries to offer both.

I love paper books. However, I don't have the space to drag home a big stack of library books each time I go. Kindle loans ar instantaneous and don't take up space in my cluttered home.

There was an interesting blog post on this that I read. I will have to look for it. But, to paraphrase, it said that now we have the option to be critical about the physical books that we buy. With ebooks, we can have our cake and eat it, too: read to our hearts content, but still have our old favorites on hand.

Anyway, that may be slightly off topic, but there you go.

acockey said:

I don't like to double post in so many days, now, but I thought this would make for good discussion. In linked to article Neil Gaiman expounds on why libraries are important. I think he is missing the mark, libraries use to be the key stone to discovering reading, I think in the digital age it is more beholden on the parents. The community psyche has grown to be more (I) based and digital readers, and the inherent discovery they have has replaced the traditional library.

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/oct/15/neil-gaiman-future-libraries-reading-daydreaming

Enjoy the read none the less

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My gut reaction is that he is right. Not everyone can afford to shower their kids with electronic books and as a mom I depend on going to the library weekly to read and pick out books with my kids. There's something about being immersed in a library or a bookstore that can't be duplicated electronically and I say that as someone who almost exclusively buys ebooks now.

Ken said:

... libraries are fine, but they should be self-supporting and not rely on tax dollars.
Patrons should have to pay to get books on loan or pay a yearly membership fee.
Exceptions would be made for those who can't afford them,
but only if circumstances warranted it like with foodstamps.

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This is a terrible idea. If you take away that free resource then library use becomes a luxury and less people will use it.

I definitely feel very strongly that it should be a free resource for all.

I think charging people to check out a book is actually punishing those who read more.

And don't place burden for funding on towns.
Let the government pick up the entire tab.
Leave the middle class out of the equation.

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Over here they are entirely funded centrally by the government. Yes, it's a lot of money , but worth every penny.

Must we pay for everything ?
Our paychecks are pitiable enough as is !

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And now you want us to pay to use the library too?

Ken said:

... well if schools close down then that's a real difficulty.
Barring that though schools are the place for a lot of stuff that goes on in libraries, IMO.
Schools should be open after classes and be accessible by students.
Comps should be provided. That seems very reasonable to me.

Click to expand...

And so the cost gets shifted to the school instead? Schools are the place for a lot that goes on in libraries, but there is so much more that goes on in a library than just reading and computer access - and what about adults who want to use the facilities during the day? How would that work at a school? You just going to have people coming in an out all day? What about all the community groups etc who have their meetings? Or the classes etc run for folks in computer use, literacy etc? Libraries are not just about reading and research.

Interesting to know. Wasn't aware of that.
Job centers would seem more like the place for access of the sort.
That would make it more structured too and beneficial.

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And so the cost just gets shifted to another organisation instead - which is government funded. So really, it's not a solution, it's just shifting the cost around.

Also, I don't know if you've ever been to a job centre, but they are small and busy enough as it is without people coming in to use computers.

In general, libraries just seem to be wearing too many hats these days.
IMO.

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What you have to realise is that libraries are a social centre for their users. They provide somewhere to go to socialise for people, facilities for clubs and groups - they provide so much that is outside of reading. The things people need from a library have changed over the years and libraries have changed with them. Our local library has a quiet reading section where you can study, read in peace and slience. But the kids area is always active and fun with reading groups etc, and they don't discourage talking in the library either, so it's very active place.

bonitakale said:

I realize computer access is very important, and I can see how libraries slid into providing it, but it irks me that people think they can afford smartphones or cable TV and not a computer and internet access. However, that's just me, and I wouldn't want schoolkids to suffer needlessly for the choices of their parents.

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I agree. But at the same time, something to note is that even when people have internet access - and only about 90% of the country actually has broadband access, and much of that is poor connections. When we lived in the country our connection was terrible - virtually non-existant.

So, for folks in rural areas sometimes the library is the only building that can provide those facilities thanks to the funding they get.

I grew up poor, too. Public libraries were like sanctuaries. The sheer wonder of quiet, peace, safety, and worlds of books made them my favorite places. As an adult, I often discover a good book in the local library and go on to purchase many by the same author. I've done that for years, so I believe libraries help sell books. I can't be the only one.

As far as paying to use one, I do donate money, and many, many books I've purchased to the Friends of the Library book sales. It's not something I am made to do, but I enjoy giving back. If libraries disappear, I wonder about the generations who will have to grow up without them.

shadowwalker said:

Bear in mind, though, that for many it's not a matter of affording both, but one or the other. Computers aren't cheap, and internet access is some places is astronomical. I don't know of many people who can afford all of the above and don't, frankly. Too much hassle involved to run to the library for internet if you don't have to.

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Sorry, I wasn't clear enough. I can't afford both. We don't have cable or smartphones. We do have internet access, and have had it since before there were pictures on the screen. First things first, is what I mean.

jari_k said:

As an adult, I often discover a good book in the local library and go on to purchase many by the same author. I've done that for years, so I believe libraries help sell books. I can't be the only one.

As far as paying to use one, I do donate money, and many, many books I've purchased to the Friends of the Library book sales. It's not something I am made to do, but I enjoy giving back. If libraries disappear, I wonder about the generations who will have to grow up without them.

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Me too, me too! Both! And I pay local and state taxes to support libraries. Where we are, you have to vote in every local levy, and the library has seldom lost a vote (though the town's getting poorer, and the votes closer).

shaldna said:

This is a terrible idea. If you take away that free resource then library use becomes a luxury and less people will use it.

I definitely feel very strongly that it should be a free resource for all.

I think charging people to check out a book is actually punishing those who read more.



Over here they are entirely funded centrally by the government. Yes, it's a lot of money , but worth every penny.




And now you want us to pay to use the library too?



And so the cost gets shifted to the school instead? Schools are the place for a lot that goes on in libraries, but there is so much more that goes on in a library than just reading and computer access - and what about adults who want to use the facilities during the day? How would that work at a school? You just going to have people coming in an out all day? What about all the community groups etc who have their meetings? Or the classes etc run for folks in computer use, literacy etc? Libraries are not just about reading and research.



And so the cost just gets shifted to another organisation instead - which is government funded. So really, it's not a solution, it's just shifting the cost around.

Also, I don't know if you've ever been to a job centre, but they are small and busy enough as it is without people coming in to use computers.



What you have to realise is that libraries are a social centre for their users. They provide somewhere to go to socialise for people, facilities for clubs and groups - they provide so much that is outside of reading. The things people need from a library have changed over the years and libraries have changed with them. Our local library has a quiet reading section where you can study, read in peace and slience. But the kids area is always active and fun with reading groups etc, and they don't discourage talking in the library either, so it's very active place.





I agree. But at the same time, something to note is that even when people have internet access - and only about 90% of the country actually has broadband access, and much of that is poor connections. When we lived in the country our connection was terrible - virtually non-existant.

So, for folks in rural areas sometimes the library is the only building that can provide those facilities thanks to the funding they get.

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... more objections than one can shake a stick at.
Not quite sure where to begin ;-)

Will tackle schools.
NO ADULTS ALLOWED !
After school availability would be for students, alone.
Kidsters would be better served in 'em as well.

Libraries are okay for homework, etc, but if they could use schools with comp and internet availability, that would:
A. Be more convenient. (Able to scoot right from class to rooms set aside for such.
B.Have a teacher(s) who could be there to help out.
"Pythagorean theorem? Sure Jane. a2+b2=c2."
"Thnx muchly Miss McGillicuddy!"

Not sure how the cost would work out. More than libraries I suppose.
Schools are larger, but since only a few teachers would be required,
maybe not considerably so.

Plus for us grups as well.
Library space would be freed up.
No spitballs neither or paper airplanes zippin' by.
Best of all, MORE BOOKS !

Also, librarians wouldn't be overwhelmed with helping students, etc.
And would be able to allocate their time to us writers who are the important ones, by golly !
Again. They are swell to help as are libraries in gen.
GOD I love their generosity.
But seriously. It isn't their responsibility, IMO.
Jack of all trades. NOT !

Neat the gov funds yours.
If it can be like that in your county it can be like that here.
Tend to that local politicians !

Ken said:

... libraries would still be much cheaper than bookstores even if they charged.
Even 50 dollars/euros a year would go a long way to making them self-supporting, instead of tax-funded.

And here's the ironic thing.
Factor in late fees and you've already got patrons paying for library service.
Not really, but yes really. B/c taken altogether those late fees add up !

So all in all am not proposing anything that radical.



It's not only taxes though.
All towns have budgets. Money that goes to libraries is taken from
money that might go towards something else. More cops, etc.
So it gets ones considering alternatives. At least for me.
Still respect your opinion. Share it, somewhat, except on paydays.

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Out of our property taxes, about $85 per year goes to the library--it's a flat x cents per thousand dollars of assessed property value, a far smaller percentage than what's taken out for police and fire. If you billed everyone, say, $50, that'd cost us $15 more per year than we pay now. A family of 5 would be paying $250 per year. I can afford the occasional book, but there's lots of families around here who can't and those who need the library the most would be cut-off from being able to really use it.

Our late fees are ten cents per item, per day, so this year our household paid them…$85.30 from taxes and fines. I don't think that extra thirty cents will help a lot.

I live in a state with a very literate population. I'd hate to see that change simply because people were unable to afford to use the library.

Reference some of the other comments: As far as electronic books go, I like them for traveling. But 15 years from now when the format that books are e-published in completely changes, what are you going to do? Re-buy all your books?

I like the tactile sensation of opening a book. I like grabbing a book off my shelf and seeing my grandfather's (or father's) name written in the front. And ask any archivist: one of the best ways to store information is with paper and ink (barring water, too low of humidity and bookworms, of course). One of the worst is electronically due to changes in hardware and software over time. I've volunteered at our state archive and there's literally thousands of disks of varying sizes of records that, without a huge outlay of time and money, are virtually lost.

I've always found my local library great - especially for my mum when me and my twin sister were little. We used to borrow books all the time. Over the years I managed to buy a lot of books with pocket money, but I read more than I could afford to, so got books from the library instead. I also expanded my reading there - that whole issue with paying to take a chance. I ended up getting very much into myths thanks to the library.

However, recently the library funding in England has dried up an my local library has very few new books. It still has the old ones (mostly) but without new ones coming in, it's limiting. I also went there to do some reading on Japanese history and found nothing (which was surprising considering the massive history section), although I am aware this was a very specific thing to look for.

Still, without funding, libraries aren't going to be able to provide any more. I know even my old college library down-sized and lost nearly half its books thanks to the cuts to education.

It's frustrating...