A GAME OF THRONES (HBO) -- POSSIBLE SPOILERS

thothguard51

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Because the plot in GoT didn't force Catelyn and Sansa into total dolts? Sansa actually trusted someone who killed her puppy.

Think about that for a second.

Sansa's problem is not that she trusted her father, who killed her dire wolf, but that she lives in a fantasy world thanks to the stories of Septa Mordane. Sansa believes everything she was told about knights and royalty being noble. This is shown very well in the books, and yes, at times it was very boring to read about her character. In the TV series, they have had to cut a lot of her character building, but they still have done a good job of showing that she is starting to realize not all the stories are happy, and not all knights are righteous.

As to Cat, while she understands more about how things work than her children, she too set things in motion for the fall of Winterfell by not being there. She never truly loved Winterfell and her marriage to Ned was one of duty and honor. She only learned to love Ned later. The way she treated Jon was harsh and some would say uncalled for, especially if she loved Ned.

So Cat is not without her faults, but she is no dolt .

Of all the Stark Children, Arya and Jon seem to be the only ones with any sense. Bran is very much like Arya, adventurous and full of questions. Had he not met with his accident, I think he would be a very different character in the books.

To me Dani is more like Sansa, just older and with a little more knowledge of how the world works. But she too is a dreamer, like Sansa. Both have big hearts and want to believe the world is not as evil as it appears. Both are getting lessons otherwise...
 

dragonjax

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True, some of the women make foolish decisions. But I cut Sansa some slack since she's supposed to be what--14?

In the books, she is 11 in A Game of Thrones; because they aged up the characters by three years in the HBO series, that makes her 14.

Here's the telling thing about what Sansa used to think of the world: she had named her direwolf Lady. All Sansa wanted was to be a noble lady. She had no idea how brutal, ruthless and truly ugly the world -- and people -- could be. Her betrothed, the young king, is a monster who abuses her; the only one who has truly protected her since her father's arrest and execution is the Hound, a man with a horrific face but who has been surprisingly caring around her.

Poor Sansa. Maybe she dreams of lemoncakes and noble knights...
 

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To me Dani is more like Sansa, just older and with a little more knowledge of how the world works. But she too is a dreamer, like Sansa. Both have big hearts and want to believe the world is not as evil as it appears. Both are getting lessons otherwise...

Indeed.

While Sansa was brought up with ideas of nobility and beauty, Dani was brought up with ideas of Targaryen rule. Thus, it's all "fire and blood" and her birthright and what have you...but she was also a widow at 14 (17 in the HBO series) and the "mother of dragons." Most 17 year olds I know are led by their hearts; that Dany makes some truly horrible (but passionate) calls makes sense.
 

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Sansa's problem is not that she trusted her father, who killed her dire wolf

Not her father. Cersei. Cersei is absolutely the one who killed her direwolf. She didn't wield the knife herself, but she's the killer, unquestionably.

Sansa should not have trusted Cersei, not because doing so in general makes one an idiot (like this is from the reader's perspective, rather than the characters'), but because Cersei killed her puppy.

That's something that grown-ups just shouldn't be able to come back from.

The knighthood/honor/etc. myth that Sansa has - that's a character trait, a flaw, and that's a good thing. It's the trusting a grown-up that had her dog killed that had my rolling my eyes into the heavens. It's just unrealistic IMO.

As far as Catelyn is concerned, not even realizing that Tyrion could have been framed was doltish. As far as not anticipating that her actions could provoke a war, that's fine - it's explained by character traits.

Anyway, I think the genders in ASOIAF are about equal in this respect (Jon Snow is oftentimes an idiot, as is Ned, as is Robb, and Tyrion even, as well as Cersei and Dany), but I just wanted to disabuse this notion that it's only the male characters that suffer from plot-idiotis. The plot occasionally drags the characters around kicking and screaming, that's all.

Still love the show, and like the books, at least the first three.
 

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True, some of the women make foolish decisions. But I cut Sansa some slack since she's supposed to be what--14?

Catelyn hasn't done anything really doltish yet, has she? She's not my favorite character, too self-righteous for my tastes, but she seems to have a head on her shoulders.

Yeah, Catelyn is definitely the voice of reason, imho. And Sansa is 14 in the series, though was 12 in the books, so she's not exactly functioning with a full adult mind yet. :)

Characters in Martins' books make stupid mistakes and trust the wrong people. Book 5 has a very grave example of this that I won't bring up here (as does book 3 for that matter). But, I guess I like that Martin punishes his characters for those mistakes. They don't coast along just because they're the POV "darlings."

I don't think Sansa trusts Cersei in book/season 2 at all. She learned that lesson when her father was beheaded. She trusted her before because she was Joff's mother, and Sansa was still believing that she would marry Joff and be a princess/queen someday. In book 3 .... >>>> She trusts Littlefinger for the love of God, to the point of almost convincing herself that she is the person he wants her to be. It's interesting because Sansa is so much more fragile than her sister, Arya, who fights against her destiny as a faceless (wo)man and the loss of her identity with every fiber of her being. >>>>>>

But, I agree with Yorkist. The women have made some seriously bad choices in the series. Dany in particular. And all have paid for those mistakes . . . paid a very steep price.
 
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I don't think Sansa trusts Cersei in book/season 2 at all. She learned that lesson when her father was beheaded.

Yeah, I know. I just think she should've learned it when the bitch killed her puppy. :)

But, I agree with Yorkist. The women have made some seriously bad choices in the series. Dany in particular. And all have paid for those mistakes . . . paid a very steep price.
I don't know what the deal is. Perhaps it's that these characters make the same mistakes over and over and over again. But I do make the distinction between mistakes made due to traits or a flaw (for example, Cat kidnapping Tyrion in spite of the fact that it was going to start a war with the Lannisters, because she loves her child that damn much and she's also quite hotheaded) and those made because of either a lack of cognition or lessons the character should have already learned at least in that context. Sansa should've known not to trust Cersei before she did. It'd be like if Catelyn still trusted Littlefinger at this point in the TV series.

Anyway, these are minor points of contention for the most part. The Sansa thing was the worst for me and I think it made a lot of people hate her character, and since she is my favorite character (Cat's in second place, who is also widely hated within the fandom), it grates.
 

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Yeah, I know. I just think she should've learned it when the bitch killed her puppy. :)

I don't know what the deal is. Perhaps it's that these characters make the same mistakes over and over and over again. But I do make the distinction between mistakes made due to traits or a flaw (for example, Cat kidnapping Tyrion in spite of the fact that it was going to start a war with the Lannisters, because she loves her child that damn much and she's also quite hotheaded) and those made because of either a lack of cognition or lessons the character should have already learned at least in that context. Sansa should've known not to trust Cersei before she did. It'd be like if Catelyn still trusted Littlefinger at this point in the TV series.

Anyway, these are minor points of contention for the most part. The Sansa thing was the worst for me and I think it made a lot of people hate her character, and since she is my favorite character (Cat's in second place, who is also widely hated within the fandom), it grates.

See, I never disliked Sansa. She's an awesome peripheral character. By paying attention to all the things going on around her, you got a LOT of info about what was happening, who was doing what, and what other characters were capable of. Sure, I was interested in her character arc (especially when it came to her and The Hound).

I personally would have been pissed about the wolf, but I know a lot of people wouldn't have been too bothered by it. I mean, sniffled a bit, gotten upset, then let it go because "it was just an animal."
 

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See, I never disliked Sansa. She's an awesome peripheral character. By paying attention to all the things going on around her, you got a LOT of info about what was happening, who was doing what, and what other characters were capable of. Sure, I was interested in her character arc (especially when it came to her and The Hound).

Perhaps it's partially because I watched the show first and Sophie Turner is just such perfection, and perhaps it's because I find her to be the "deepest" character (because her arc is more internal than any of the other characters, perhaps), but Sansa is not peripheral to me at all - no more than Arya is, anyhow. I think Martin may like Arya more, but they get about the same amount of narrative time and I for one am quite more attached to and invested in Sansa.

Not that that makes me hate Arya, and I'm not disinterested in her, and I sort of get annoyed at the fandom (as well as, perhaps, the GoT narrative) for treating the Arya/Sansa sibling rivalry like *paraphrases poster at TWoP whose moniker I can't remember* it's frigging Highlander and there can only be one.

I personally would have been pissed about the wolf, but I know a lot of people wouldn't have been too bothered by it. I mean, sniffled a bit, gotten upset, then let it go because "it was just an animal."
I maintain that the narrative treats the child: wolf relationships as very significant, and also that this is a child: puppy relationship. Children are less objective about and more attached to their relationships with their pets, IMO.
 

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In the last episode, I actually thought the "stupidest", "most foolish" move (not just as in it made no logical sense character-wise, but that it also felt like nothing so much as a move designed to allow a plot course change) was Halfhand and the other Nightwatchmen leaving Jon alone to kill the captive and telling this guy (who was not even a ranger and had never been north of the wall): "Um, cut off 'er head and catch up with us."

Honestly, it struck me as so idiotic it nearly ruined the entire series.

My hope is that Halfhand somehow foresaw the captive and Jon "bonding" and hoped to use it to his advantage. But I doubt that will happen.
 

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In the last episode, I actually thought the "stupidest", "most foolish" move (not just as in it made no logical sense character-wise, but that it also felt like nothing so much as a move designed to allow a plot course change) was Halfhand and the other Nightwatchmen leaving Jon alone to kill the captive and telling this guy (who was not even a ranger and had never been north of the wall): "Um, cut off 'er head and catch up with us."

Honestly, it struck me as so idiotic it nearly ruined the entire series.

My hope is that Halfhand somehow foresaw the captive and Jon "bonding" and hoped to use it to his advantage. But I doubt that will happen.

You're right. This was totally stupid.
 

thothguard51

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Wow, this episode just blew me away.

I finally got to hear Ygrette say, "You know nothing, Jon Snow." The only problem I had was she did not say it like I heard it in my head while reading the books.

Arya and Tywin Lannister, these added scenes are better than the books. IF the actress playing Arya does not get nominated for so award, I would be very shocked. She is doing a superb job...

And Dani with only two episodes left, she is going to have some interesting scenes...

The Kingslayer, Jammie is going to drive Bree crazy with his banter. I can't wait...

The scene between Sansa and Cercie, as well as between Tyrion and Cercie was very well done in showing a softer side of Cercie...which no one should truly believe.

And for those who have not read the books and are saddened by the burnt children hanging from Winterfells walls, well, just wait and see. Theon will more than pay next season, that's all I'll say...
 

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The whole point of half-hand letting Jon be alone with the Yggrite, is so he can better understand the nature of the Nightwatches' war with the wildlings. Jon is brave and idealistic, and Halfhand wants to hammer home the way the war really is. It's not a clean, good versus evil kind of affair, it's simply a kill or be killed one.

Qhorin knows this, and this is why he puts Jon on the spot, and leaves him alone. Ygritte makes Jon hesitate in his performing of his duties, and makes him question the oaths he swore, and Qhorin being the shrewd bastard he is, makes this a test of sorts for Jon.
 

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The whole point of half-hand letting Jon be alone with the Yggrite, is so he can better understand the nature of the Nightwatches' war with the wildlings. Jon is brave and idealistic, and Halfhand wants to hammer home the way the war really is. It's not a clean, good versus evil kind of affair, it's simply a kill or be killed one.

Qhorin knows this, and this is why he puts Jon on the spot, and leaves him alone. Ygritte makes Jon hesitate in his performing of his duties, and makes him question the oaths he swore, and Qhorin being the shrewd bastard he is, makes this a test of sorts for Jon.

Yeah, I agree completely. Perhaps it's less clear in the series and moreso in the books? Qhorin's no dummy. In the books.... (which they apparently did not show in the last episode as Ygritte led Jon into a trap) >>>>>> Qhorin tells Jon to do whatever it takes to infiltrate Mance Raydar's group, to do ANYTHING . . . to break his vows temporarily if it means that Jon can gain Mance's trust in some way. Maybe Jon escapes temporarily and has that conversation with Qhoren then returns to find the wildlings again? I seem to recall Ghost being involved too. >>>>

So, Qhorin's motives are really twofold here.

But, I think by rushing along with Qhorin, we kind of lost some of that in the series. Who knows, maybe there's more coming. Ghost is still out there wandering around. That might save Jon's butt next episode. :)
 

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Well, as I said, it was my hope that Halfhand had some ulterior motive, but the tv show did absolutely nothing to make it look that way. Coupled with the absolutely ridiculous escape of Jamie in tonight's episode, I was beginning to doubt all the hype of this thing being intricately plotted. It seems more that a bunch of stupid people just keep doing inexplicably ludicrous things ("Duh, I'm a-gwanna walk right in here with this dangerous prisoner who just er beat this other dude to death...I'm gwanna turn mah back on 'im and put down mah serd too..."--to borrow another Marty quote: "Really?").
 

thothguard51

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It seems AGOT is the most illegally downloaded show of the year so far...

From MSN now...

http://now.msn.com/entertainment/0513-thrones-illegal-download.aspx

according to those in the know, the reason for this is two fold...

a) holds appeal for younger male audiences (computer savvy, zitty, fans of exposed breasts) and b) HBO has made it difficult to get the show any other way (HBO's online service requires a cable subscription, out of reach for many younger potential viewers).
 
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CrastersBabies

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If they had a way for people to get the episodes w/o subscribing to HBO (it's not cheap when you're already paying almost $100 for cable/satellite and DSL, etc).

I get HBO the Friday before GoT starts and drop it the day after it ends. I used to watch True Blood, but it was so bad last year that I won't keep HBO through the summer. I'd love to be able to get the show per episode. Even if it cost me (total) what the DVD boxed set cost, it would be less than I'm paying per month for all these channels that I honestly never watch except for GoT.

I don't fault people for downloading it because of HBO's iron fist over this sort of thing. People have no options and have to wait almost a year for the DVDs to come out once the show has aired. I will say this, the people I know who have downloaded GoT in the past have all bought the bluray or the DVD set when it's come out.

From what I've heard, there IS an audience who is willing to pay (a big audience), but HBO doesn't make it easy. I'm not saying it's okay to run around and download everything illegally, but I also can't get all up in someone's business for wanting to see the show so badly that they'd download it week to week.

A pal of mine was downloading it from an out-of-country P2P server (invite only, or so he said) and I saw like 5000 "seeds" (which are people who are letting other people download off them?) and over 10,000 "leeches" (which are the people downloading). I don't know if I have that terminology correct. So, for that site alone, 10,000 people were downloading episodes. You charge $5 per episode, and that's $50,000 profit for HBO right there. $500,000 if you include all 10 episodes.
 
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That long shot of Harrenhal was absolutely stunning. It was like some kind of apocalyptic vision, all blackened and burning, with the hanged man dangling in his red coat.
 

thothguard51

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I liked the view from above where you could see the dragon fire blasted turrets and towers crumbled. Harrenhal looked like it had been blitz bombed like Berlin during WW2...

I am so enjoying the interaction between Arya and Tywin. When she sprouted about who rode what dragon and then asked him all innocently how many stonemasons he had met, I liked his response. "Careful girl. I like you, but thread careful here."

I also enjoyed Arya's response when Tywin corrected her M'Lord, vs the proper My Lord. Shows she's very quick witted, compared to Sansa. And the look on her face when Tywin asked her who taught her about Dragons, and she said my father, precious reaction. Very well done for a young actress.
 

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I am so enjoying the interaction between Arya and Tywin. When she sprouted about who rode what dragon and then asked him all innocently how many stonemasons he had met, I liked his response. "Careful girl. I like you, but thread careful here."

I also enjoyed Arya's response when Tywin corrected her M'Lord, vs the proper My Lord. Shows she's very quick witted, compared to Sansa. And the look on her face when Tywin asked her who taught her about Dragons, and she said my father, precious reaction. Very well done for a young actress.
Arya is definitely the favorite part around our casa. Altho we are looking forward to more bad things happening in King's Landing. Every time they cut to Jon north of the wall, we'd all sigh with disappointment. Dany used to be our fav but now the hurdles she keeps facing just seem like so many plot devices.

And none of us have read the books, but as Bran (et al) came upon the farmhouse and someone mentioned something about two orphans being sent there...Well, it didn't take too much imagination to see where that was headed.
 

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Arya is definitely the favorite part around our casa. Altho we are looking forward to more bad things happening in King's Landing. Every time they cut to Jon north of the wall, we'd all sigh with disappointment. Dany used to be our fav but now the hurdles she keeps facing just seem like so many plot devices.

And none of us have read the books, but as Bran (et al) came upon the farmhouse and someone mentioned something about two orphans being sent there...Well, it didn't take too much imagination to see where that was headed.

That's funny. My husband hasn't read the books and the Jon Snow parts are some of his favorite.

You aren't alone with Dany. She only had, hmmm, 3-4 total chapters in Clash of Kings and it was pretty much her wandering around the "red waste" watching her people starve and go thirsty. Qarth is the highlight in the book for her, which we're in the middle of now, and that's not sayin' much. Just keep in mind that she still has to go to the House of the Undying. :) That should liven things up! It will be interesting to see what non-readers think of what is to come, and, how they portray it all in the series. Hope that's not all too spoilery.

On the orphans, you know, that's an interesting thing to bring up. One would think that if they had the boys, they'd have their wolves as well?

I feel so bad for Catelyn. Ned is gone, now Bran and Rickon.

My husband thought the last episode was a little too "talky." All I kept thinking was... (spoilers) >>>>> Wait until the Blackwater! I hear that 3/4 of the episode is dedicated to the battle.... <<<<

I thought the scenes with Jaime were a little long (well, Jaime and his "cousin"). I also don't remember him being THIS bad in the books, but, we never got his POV in books 1 and 2, so who knows.
 

thothguard51

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Get plenty of Jamie's PoV in book three and four...

Vary's is the one who is missing this season. We saw him what, once when Tywin was trying to find who the spy for Cercie was. I always enjoyed his conversations, the way he has of saying things without really spelling them out...