How many pov shifts are too many?

KateJJ said:

i may need to reconsider exactly what I'm trying to do in the scene.

Click to expand...

I think that's a good starting point. If you find that switching that rapidly between the two is what is needed, then that's what you do.

Just make sure it's clear, clean, not confusing and done well.

Easy peasy, right?

A light-hearted observation maybe, but survival seems the most obvious thing for both parties to be focussed on rather than thoughts designed to explain things to the reader.

Just a final passing thought. As the fight progresses does each one twig or begin to suspect who the other is, perhaps by recognising a stance, or grip, or movement or strike or whatever, because if that were the case, dialogue would no doubt then enter the picture (muffled by head gear?) and that will help with the POV issue and the choosing of perhaps a single POV.

If I know the overall situation and the position from the POV of one character it should not be difficult for me to assume what the reactions and emotions of the other character are likely to be.

Good luck once you've decided what the scene's primary purpose is.

KateJJ said:

Well in this case the reason I'm switching POVs is to show the emotions and thoughts of the characters, so an outside pov won't work. I'm sticking with tight third so no omniscient. And the characters are wearing disguises and armor and beating each other with swords so I can't just show what the other person is thinking from the context.

i may need to reconsider exactly what I'm trying to do in the scene.

Click to expand...

If it works it works. Isn't that want the agents say time and again. Is the scene entertaining and understandable? If so what's the fuss?

To what fuss do you refer?

If the OP considered it entertaining and understandable I doubt the question would have been posed.

All she's been given are alternatives and available options that she can consider and use or discard as she chooses.

I've occasionally switched POV in a scene using scene breaks - it's not uncommon where multiple POVs are employed.

The OP seems to be concerned about the frequency of these changes in a given scene.

I've done the same thing -- shifted POVs multiple times, and overlapped or even reiterated events, depending on what the heck we need to see and whose POV was the most interesting/relevant at the moment. And sometimes the time in a given POV is a matter of just a few lines, cuz that's what it needed.

And while I generally prefer to read and write in a single (tight 3rd) POV as much as possible, sometimes you need that other viewpoint, and it can't wait til the end of Character A's present actions to see what's inside the head of Character B (especially when there's a lot happening simultaneously).

I wanted to weigh in on the original post because I've gotten the same feedback from 2 agents and 1 editor on the last manuscript I've submitted that my frequent shift of POVs is a problem. I didn't realize my shift of POVs was "frequent." I tend to write the first half of a 4,000-or-so-word chapter in the heroine's POV and the second half of a chapter in the hero's POV, and this is the first time I've ever been told by any agent or editor that it's too much. It could totally just be that my MS sucks, but going back to your original post, I'd be careful of doing so many shifts. It could be frowned upon by the people who actually publish your work.

The first one that irritates the reader is one too many.

Plus what Myrealana just posted, above, reiterated for emphasis.

caw

KateJJ said:

How many pov shifts are too many?

Click to expand...

Personal opinion: one. I really don't like POV shifts. It takes me out of the story. I like to follow one MC, get connected with him/her and get inside her head. I can't do that if the POV keeps shifting. Inevitably, I'll get annoyed with one of the POV's and start skipping ahead to the POV of the character that I enjoy most. Typically, I won't even read books with POV shifts.

frankiebrown said:

Personal opinion: one. I really don't like POV shifts. It takes me out of the story. I like to follow one MC, get connected with him/her and get inside her head. I can't do that if the POV keeps shifting.

Click to expand...

Every aspiring writer here needs to print this in big bold font and post it where it can be seen each time a writing session begins.

The seemingly limitless infatuation with multiple-POV narration in this forum has exploded over the past couple of years. There must be fifty threads devoted to this issue. And a hell of a lot of readers detest shifting POVs in narration.

I strongly suspect that most of the interest in shifting POVs derives from a form of laziness. It's easy just to jump over into Mary's POV to tell something, rather than stay in Cynthia's. Oh, and then David needs to narrate something. But that makes Elizabeth have to tell something else.

This is almost always a crappy way to write fiction. First error is the need on the part of the writer to tell everything the moment it occurs, and the failure to recognize that the reader doesn't need or even want that.

The worst offenders, in my experience, are aspiring Fantasy writers. Every aspiring Fantasy writer should go read some really good Mystery writers, like Rex Stout, John D. MacDonald, James M. Cain, Tony Hillerman. Mystery writers understand effective narrative techniques better than almost any other genre, in my experience. Their stories depend on crisp, clear narration and POV control.

My experience in critiquing unpublished manuscripts has indicated clearly to me that lack of POV discipline is the single most important problem that injures a story. Many writers get so wrapped up in enthusiasm for plot and story development that they forget/ignore/are unaware of the importance of POV control. Many cannot effectively control even a single POV, let alone multiple ones. And the seduction of dipping into many POVs just complicates the problem.

The top-of-the-bell-curve reader doesn't analyze this problem, but most will feel it when it is there. And that is likely to drive that reader to seek another, more satisfying reading outlet.

caw

blacbird said:

The seemingly limitless infatuation with multiple-POV narration in this forum has exploded over the past couple of years. There must be fifty threads devoted to this issue. And a hell of a lot of readers detest shifting POVs in narration.

Click to expand...

<snippola>

While I don't disagree with you that it's sometimes done for no good reason, commonly overdone, and often poorly done, I wonder if the reason it irritates the reader is not so much the POV shift or even outright headhopping (which frankly most non-writers don't seem to notice), but rather that most of the POVs used just aren't very danged interesting. So every time the tale switches to yonder POV, it goes flat.

Reziac said:

While I don't disagree with you that it's sometimes done for no good reason, commonly overdone, and often poorly done, I wonder if the reason it irritates the reader is not so much the POV shift or even outright headhopping (which frankly most non-writers don't seem to notice), but rather that most of the POVs used just aren't very danged interesting. So every time the tale switches to yonder POV, it goes flat.

Click to expand...

This, too, is entirely correct. The more POVs you employ in narration, the less is the chance that you make any of them truly interesting to the reader, and the greater is the chance that all of them wind up reading as equally dull.

caw

Good post. I was thinking of going back and inserting some pov from the bad guy. Or should I just stick to the one pov?

It might be worth your while to read Patricia McKillip's Solstice Moon.

Plenty of switches of POV -- done beautifully.

keepcalmandwriteon said:

Good post. I was thinking of going back and inserting some pov from the bad guy. Or should I just stick to the one pov?

Click to expand...

Anything can be done well. If you feel like the baddy needs page time, go ahead and do it. Just make sure its relevant and grabs the reader's attention.


Personally, I'm fine with POV switches when they are done well. But when it's done because the writer is lazy or needs to fill pages (when the POV switch doesn't bring up any point), I just skip them. There have been some POV change overs that I've skipped, and some that make the entire story worthwhile for me.

This is the case of: Done well, it can work out great. Done bad, and all the writer throughout the land will stab you for it, but the reader doesn't really care so much, they'll skip it.

I usually write one pov, but I love reading multiple points of view, and I'm pretty sure at least half the books on my shelves use multiple pov. I'm having a problem believing that this is a beginner mistake, when some of my favorite authors are doing it.To me it's only lazy when the author feels they need to switch pov in order to show what every single character is thinking. Going from John in London to Susie in New York because both characters are doing something interesting and have no way of interacting with each other, is not, imo, laziness.

As to the original question, changing pov within a scene would bother me. Changing pov over and over and over in the scene would ruin the story for me.

Would you say the following is generally true, especially for an inexperienced writer like me:

If POV shifts have to occur at all, they should be in separate chapters.

The fewer POVs, the better.

Omniscient POV is the hardest to write and least liked by readers.

keepcalmandwriteon said:

Good post. I was thinking of going back and inserting some pov from the bad guy.

Click to expand...

I had to do that, due to complaints from beta readers that otherwise what befell the MC was too opaque: MC had absolutely NO idea why he got picked on (tortured, etc), and that went on too long to sustain without a peek at the motivation behind it. It turned out rather well, and provided a nice character intro for the ongoing villain of the piece (and his sidekick, who is referenced a lot) without giving away his root motivation, which we encounter later.

WillSauger said:

Personally, I'm fine with POV switches when they are done well. But when it's done because the writer is lazy or needs to fill pages (when the POV switch doesn't bring up any point), I just skip them. There have been some POV change overs that I've skipped, and some that make the entire story worthwhile for me.

Click to expand...

An example leaps to mind: one of Morris West's novels (I can't recall if it's The Shoes of the Fisherman or The Devil's Advocate)... next time I read it, I'm going to skip the subplot and its POV entirely. It reads like a "romantic subplot" shoehorned in at the behest of the publisher, and really has nothing to do with the meat of the book.

MythMonger said:

Would you say the following is generally true, especially for an inexperienced writer like me:

If POV shifts have to occur at all, they should be in separate chapters. Mostly, usually, but there could be exceptions, theoretically. I'd say that's generally a decent guideline.

The fewer POVs, the better. Put it this way--the more POVs you have, the harder it is to get the reader oriented and invested in the characters, and the more likely it is that you're inserting stuff that doesn't need to be there. But I wouldn't say it's a rule to use fewer POVs.

Omniscient POV is the hardest to write and least liked by readers. Disagree. Some readers don't like it, I hear, but many like it just fine. Many of my favorites are in omniscient. POV isn't the problem; it's how it's written. Please don't think you can't write omni; but do learn how to write it by reading a lot of it and seeing how it works when done well.

Click to expand...

Nothing is a hard rule; nothing is set in stone; there is nothing that you can't do. But certain things are harder to pull off, from what I've seen. (And tried.)

Here are the potential issues when writers attempt multiple POVs, as they occur to me:

1) The more POVs there are, the less time you spend with the characters, and the harder it is to get invested in them.

2) The more POVs there are, the better the chances are that they become generic or indistinguishable or plain boring.

3) The more POVs there are, the greater the chances that the writer hasn't spent much time developing the characters, sometimes reducing them to two-dimensional lists of traits or cardboard cutouts.

4) The more POVs there are, the greater the chances that you're including scenes that are not necessary.

5) The more POVs there are, the greater the chances that the writer has a general issue with overwriting (can stem from a desire to show every little thing instead of sketching certain things more broadly, letting a reader's imagination fill in details, etcetera, which bleeds into the writing more generally).

6) Switching POVs too often or between too many characters is confusing and disorienting, which becomes tiresome and frustrating.

7) Omni is not an excuse to write in infinite POVs. It's one POV--that of the narrator. Too often, though, it's treated as the former.

And that's all I can think of now, although I'm sure more may come to me...

If you can avoid these things and the story benefits from it, then by all means, use more than one POV.

buzhidao said:

1) The more POVs there are, the less time you spend with the characters, and the harder it is to get invested in them.

2) The more POVs there are, the better the chances are that they become generic or indistinguishable or plain boring.

3) The more POVs there are, the greater the chances that the writer hasn't spent much time developing the characters, sometimes reducing them to two-dimensional lists of traits or cardboard cutouts.

4) The more POVs there are, the greater the chances that you're including scenes that are not necessary.

5) The more POVs there are, the greater the chances that the writer has a general issue with overwriting (can stem from a desire to show every little thing instead of sketching certain things more broadly, letting a reader's imagination fill in details, etcetera, which bleeds into the writing more generally).

6) Switching POVs too often or between too many characters is confusing and disorienting, which becomes tiresome and frustrating.

7) Omni is not an excuse to write in infinite POVs. It's one POV--that of the narrator. Too often, though, it's treated as the former.

Click to expand...

This is what every writer in the forum should print out in bold and tack to their computer monitors.

frankiebrown said:

This is what every writer in the forum should print out in bold and tack to their computer monitors.

Click to expand...

Yeah... I've got a rule about not having negative rules...

My rules for multiple third:

- Have a minimum of 5000words for the POV character introductions.
Helps with defining and connecting with the character. I like 7-10K.

- Make sure the POV character/switch is needed to carry the main story along.
Special sub-plots can be nice, but keep the as relevant as possible.

- Switching too rapidly can be disorientating.
Or, too long between switches can make the reader forget the character altogether.

- Try to "meet" other POV character to trade off the narration.
Example: Chapter 1, Bob does this, meets Mandy, goes about his business. Chapter 2. Mandy does this...
And keeping this relevant to a single story keeps the POV character very attached to the story
This lessens that abrupt character switch without any interest towards them.


I've got more rules, but that's strict to my writing style. These are what I've found that works for me as a writer, and what I've liked while reading.

MythMonger said:

Would you say the following is generally true, especially for an inexperienced writer like me:

If POV shifts have to occur at all, they should be in separate chapters.

Click to expand...

They can also change on the scene boundary.

The fewer POVs, the better.

Click to expand...

Some stories need multiple POVs, but in general, they should be restricted to the fewest possible. Every POV adds another layer to the story. I'm personally not in favor of using the POV of walk-on or unimportant characters just because you need a pair of eyes to observe something. Restructure the story so that those scenes aren't necessary.

Omniscient POV is the hardest to write and least liked by readers.

Click to expand...

Some writers just naturally do omniscient well. For those who don't, yes, it's difficult.

It's also less popular these days than it used to be, but that doesn't mean it can't be successfully used.

buzhidao thanks for your list. You've given me a lot to think about and I really appreciate it.

BethS, also thank you for your input.