Does anyone know what the legal position is on that in the UK? Can you still submit to an agent if you've posted say, the first chapter online? Even password protected?
If only... When I...
- Thread starter Birol
- Start date
- Status
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2006
- Messages
- 372
- Reaction score
- 26
- Location
- The pacific NW
- Website
- ingemarwrites.wordpress.com
I write because I love writing.
I strive toward getting published because I want to have a job that I love doing.
Nothing more, nothing less. The "milestone" hit me without my knowledge when I realized that I finally had the tools/skills to finish a piece I started.
I strive toward getting published because I want to have a job that I love doing.
Nothing more, nothing less. The "milestone" hit me without my knowledge when I realized that I finally had the tools/skills to finish a piece I started.
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2005
- Messages
- 43,746
- Reaction score
- 8,652
- Location
- Los Angeles
- Website
- www.amazon.com
First chapter only? In password-protected forums? No problem. The whole thing? Well, it depends. At least in the US, you can still first rights, but maybe not first online rights. But then again, I am not a lawyer.
Published
The thing to remember is that this is NOT a legal issue. The legal definition of "published" is completely unimportant. What matters is only what a given agent or editor has to say about it. If an agent or editor does not want something because it's been published online, you can't make them take it. If an agent or editor does want something regardless of the fact that it's been posted online, it doesn't matter in the least whether it has technically been published.
Legal definition only matters because of when the life of the copyright begins counting down.
No agent or editor ever says, "That has been legally published, so I don't want it." What an agent or editor may say is, "Well, so many people have already read this that I probably can't sell enough copies to matter." Or less likely but still possible, they may say, "Hmmm, this seems to have generated some interest, and if we publish it and give it some distribution, we might make a lot of money."
This is why, rarely, publishers take on a self-published novel. The writer sells seven or eight thousand copies in a respectable length of time, so a big publisher grabs it, even though it has been legally published. It's all about how many copies an agent/editor believes will still sell, not about legalities.
No one minds a first chapter that's been posted. Even many, many publishers post first chapters in order to make readers want the complete novel. For a complete work, however, this may be why an agent or editor doesn't want it.
The thing to remember is that this is NOT a legal issue. The legal definition of "published" is completely unimportant. What matters is only what a given agent or editor has to say about it. If an agent or editor does not want something because it's been published online, you can't make them take it. If an agent or editor does want something regardless of the fact that it's been posted online, it doesn't matter in the least whether it has technically been published.
Legal definition only matters because of when the life of the copyright begins counting down.
No agent or editor ever says, "That has been legally published, so I don't want it." What an agent or editor may say is, "Well, so many people have already read this that I probably can't sell enough copies to matter." Or less likely but still possible, they may say, "Hmmm, this seems to have generated some interest, and if we publish it and give it some distribution, we might make a lot of money."
This is why, rarely, publishers take on a self-published novel. The writer sells seven or eight thousand copies in a respectable length of time, so a big publisher grabs it, even though it has been legally published. It's all about how many copies an agent/editor believes will still sell, not about legalities.
No one minds a first chapter that's been posted. Even many, many publishers post first chapters in order to make readers want the complete novel. For a complete work, however, this may be why an agent or editor doesn't want it.
Last edited:
Some will respect you if you never sell anything. Many will not respect you even after you're published, unless it's a type of publishing they approve.
Still others will not respect you no matter what you have published unless you can wave a big check under their noses. That's life.
I needed self-validation. I don't care what others think. Those who matter do not care what I do, and those who do not care do not matter.
Validation
For me, if it isn't good enough to sell, it isn't good enough to read. Period. I'm darned if I want anyone reading anything of mine that wasn't good enough to sell. Getting read is easy, but it has no bearing on quality. Selling nearly always does.
For me, if it isn't good enough to sell, it isn't good enough to read. Period. I'm darned if I want anyone reading anything of mine that wasn't good enough to sell. Getting read is easy, but it has no bearing on quality. Selling nearly always does.
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2007
- Messages
- 471
- Reaction score
- 110
- Location
- Oregon Coast
- Website
- www.catherinebusinelle.com
My big validations would be:
- People I don't know buy one of my books without looking at the synopsis because they've read a couple of my other books and liked them that much (I know not everyone buys books this way; I just mean people like me who will go on author binges and read everything by a particular writer when they fall in love).
- My publisher asks me when my next book will be finished instead of me having to convince an agent/publisher that I can sell enough copies to make my next book worth the cost of printing.
- I make as much money writing two books a year as I could make with my current resume at a non-writing job.
Yep, I'm just informed enough to know how rare/unlikely that scenario is and to know that very few writers make it. But I have 10 years or so to work on these goals and just decent enough skills that mind-blowing effort and sheer stubbornness could actually get me there.
- People I don't know buy one of my books without looking at the synopsis because they've read a couple of my other books and liked them that much (I know not everyone buys books this way; I just mean people like me who will go on author binges and read everything by a particular writer when they fall in love).
- My publisher asks me when my next book will be finished instead of me having to convince an agent/publisher that I can sell enough copies to make my next book worth the cost of printing.
- I make as much money writing two books a year as I could make with my current resume at a non-writing job.
Yep, I'm just informed enough to know how rare/unlikely that scenario is and to know that very few writers make it. But I have 10 years or so to work on these goals and just decent enough skills that mind-blowing effort and sheer stubbornness could actually get me there.
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2006
- Messages
- 2,809
- Reaction score
- 899
- Location
- Sunny SoCal
- Website
- www.katethornton.net
I have over 60 short stories in print. I'm always looking to my next story - maybe a genre breakout as I have been writing mystery shorts for a long time now. But my "if only..." is all about having more time to write. I am disciplined, but a few more hours in the day would be heaven...
I have thought about novels. Really. Hmmmm.....
I have thought about novels. Really. Hmmmm.....
- Joined
- May 14, 2005
- Messages
- 12,862
- Reaction score
- 2,846
- Location
- A Small Town in Germany
- Website
- www.sharonmaas.co.uk
Something happened today which made me say "If I were.." to myself.
I got a telephone call from a stranger. A woman who lives down the road. She asked me if I have a bushy black dog, I said yes, and she said the dog had been in her garden and scared her. I apologized and said, he must have strayed, and just as I spoke he came back in the door; I tol d her it wouldn't happen again, but that he is a friendly dog and would never harm anybody. And apologized again.
She launched into a lecture about the dangers of letting a dog stray and how scared she was and there are children on the street etc etc, and then she said if it happens again she is calling the police.
I felt that last so uncalled for, especially to a person you have never met. And later I told my husband, if it had been So-and-so - our next door neihbours, a well integrated couple, the man a director of a local school and an elected official in local government - she would not have spoken that way.
There was just a basic lack of respect that got to me; and the thought flit through my head, "If I were a well-known author she would not have spoken to me in that tone and threatened with police."
I have never been interested in fame; it's the respect that being known as an author would bring I hankered after in that moment. I felt she had talked down to me.
And yet - what I would really want, and what I believe, is that this respect should be there quite independent of any achievement I might make as a writer. It's something so basic, and it's the way I try to approach everyone, regardless of their position or achievements.
Oh, and something else: she first asked to speak to my husband, as if only he could deal with it; this may be just a chip on my shoulder, but I wonder if she would have spoken to him differently?
I got a telephone call from a stranger. A woman who lives down the road. She asked me if I have a bushy black dog, I said yes, and she said the dog had been in her garden and scared her. I apologized and said, he must have strayed, and just as I spoke he came back in the door; I tol d her it wouldn't happen again, but that he is a friendly dog and would never harm anybody. And apologized again.
She launched into a lecture about the dangers of letting a dog stray and how scared she was and there are children on the street etc etc, and then she said if it happens again she is calling the police.
I felt that last so uncalled for, especially to a person you have never met. And later I told my husband, if it had been So-and-so - our next door neihbours, a well integrated couple, the man a director of a local school and an elected official in local government - she would not have spoken that way.
There was just a basic lack of respect that got to me; and the thought flit through my head, "If I were a well-known author she would not have spoken to me in that tone and threatened with police."
I have never been interested in fame; it's the respect that being known as an author would bring I hankered after in that moment. I felt she had talked down to me.
And yet - what I would really want, and what I believe, is that this respect should be there quite independent of any achievement I might make as a writer. It's something so basic, and it's the way I try to approach everyone, regardless of their position or achievements.
Oh, and something else: she first asked to speak to my husband, as if only he could deal with it; this may be just a chip on my shoulder, but I wonder if she would have spoken to him differently?
I think some of you may be expecting more out of the "published author" name badge than you'll get, I'm afraid. Unless they're living next door to your 120 acre lot with mansion which you bought on your writing work, and you can't take their call right away because of a film crew doing an interview with you....the respect will be lacking. And even then, it won't be much. People can talk down to anyone they want. IT doesn't matter who they are.
Unless they're living next door to your 120 acre lot with mansion which you bought on your writing work, and you can't take their call right away because of a film crew doing an interview with you....the respect will be lacking. And even then, it won't be much. People can talk down to anyone they want. IT doesn't matter who they are.
I think the majority of respect I'm looking for is inside my own head. Since fame and fortune are not going to follow (I'm not that delusional) I'll be happy when I can see my story(ies) in paperback on a shelf at the B&N.
I know I'll have this day job till the day I'm found dead at my desk, surrounded by the bodies of those I take with me. But being published (the regular way) will put a smile on that cold, dead face.
I know I'll have this day job till the day I'm found dead at my desk, surrounded by the bodies of those I take with me. But being published (the regular way) will put a smile on that cold, dead face.
This make it sounds as if you don't believe commercial fiction can have flawed, deep characters.
What if they don't? What will you do then?
What if they're still not impressed? What if they say, "FINALLY! You've finished it. Are you going to get a real job now?"
What form did self-validation take for you, James? Was it the selling?
(this is what I get for watching too much Dog Whisperer)
When you are confronting dogs and dealing with dogs of any size, they feed off of your stance, your energy, and how you are relating to them. If you are timid, or afraid, or you are giving the dog any sort of power over you, it will take it. It's a pack animal. Someone has to be in charge, or the dog will take charge.
One of the best ways to deal with dogs in any situation and keep them from getting out of hand is to walk in like you own the place. The dog is naturally subservient to you, because you have decided that the area is yours, the route is yours, the space is yours. The dog awaits your initiative, because you are pack leader. It's your energy, the mood you give off. You have assumed dominance.
I would suggest that the same thing works as being a writer. A few years back, when I decided that I was a writer, and that the end of it (with the finality and certainty that I have decided I am male, or decided I am pulled on by gravity) I noticed that immediately, the snide comments, the weird questions all stopped. I acted like I was selling books by the millions (which does not mean snotty and rude, mind you) and the world treated me accordingly. People are decent about it, they will occasionally discuss with me. It never gets condescending. Not even with strangers.
You have to acknowledge yourself as the level of writer you expect everyone else to acknowledge you are. Go out there like you're a rock star, like you really are a rock star, and the world will not necessarily fall all over you, but they'll pay attention instead of pointing and laughing.
If you go out nervous and embarrassed of your writing, and aware that you may never get published, you're just baring your throat.
(thank you, Caesar Millan, you've now invaded every corner of my life that Mike Rowe hasn't...)
When you are confronting dogs and dealing with dogs of any size, they feed off of your stance, your energy, and how you are relating to them. If you are timid, or afraid, or you are giving the dog any sort of power over you, it will take it. It's a pack animal. Someone has to be in charge, or the dog will take charge.
One of the best ways to deal with dogs in any situation and keep them from getting out of hand is to walk in like you own the place. The dog is naturally subservient to you, because you have decided that the area is yours, the route is yours, the space is yours. The dog awaits your initiative, because you are pack leader. It's your energy, the mood you give off. You have assumed dominance.
I would suggest that the same thing works as being a writer. A few years back, when I decided that I was a writer, and that the end of it (with the finality and certainty that I have decided I am male, or decided I am pulled on by gravity) I noticed that immediately, the snide comments, the weird questions all stopped. I acted like I was selling books by the millions (which does not mean snotty and rude, mind you) and the world treated me accordingly. People are decent about it, they will occasionally discuss with me. It never gets condescending. Not even with strangers.
You have to acknowledge yourself as the level of writer you expect everyone else to acknowledge you are. Go out there like you're a rock star, like you really are a rock star, and the world will not necessarily fall all over you, but they'll pay attention instead of pointing and laughing.
If you go out nervous and embarrassed of your writing, and aware that you may never get published, you're just baring your throat.
(thank you, Caesar Millan, you've now invaded every corner of my life that Mike Rowe hasn't...)
- Joined
- May 17, 2006
- Messages
- 2,037
- Reaction score
- 593
Ooh, Birol asks tough questions!
I've been satisfied from the moment I started writing my first piece of fiction. However, I'll never be satisfied enough -- and I view that as a good thing. I push myself harder to improve, improve, improve than anyone (okay, except my husband. He pushes me harder.)
I just don't ever want to settle. And that will be enough for me.
I've been satisfied from the moment I started writing my first piece of fiction. However, I'll never be satisfied enough -- and I view that as a good thing. I push myself harder to improve, improve, improve than anyone (okay, except my husband. He pushes me harder.)
I just don't ever want to settle. And that will be enough for me.
Hmmm. My first reaction was a full-on explanation of why this won't work, yada yada yada. But the truth of it is . . . You're absolutely right.
- Joined
- Sep 27, 2005
- Messages
- 16,339
- Reaction score
- 4,110
- Location
- East O' The Sun & West O' The Moon
- Website
- www.jlevitt.com
Sorry, Peedee, but you've overlooked one small detail. Dogs are not people.
Cesar himself has admitted to some problems dealing with his marriage and family before he realized that.
Cesar himself has admitted to some problems dealing with his marriage and family before he realized that.
Well said, Birol. I used to think that if I received respect as a writer I would be validated but now I find I am the only one who can validate me, both with respect to my writing and as a person. I am not convinced that achieving recognition as a writer would make me feel better abut myself. I'd probably just find something else to feel inadequate and hard done by about. It's really up to me to make the decision about how I want to feel about myself, whether I receive any literary recognition or not. For example, what if I had literary recognition and not love? Would I be happy then? No. I guess I'm just trying to be happy so I won't have to depend on publication for validation. I don't want to waste my life moaning about things over which I have little control.
Yeah, but if I can just smack my oldest sister on the nose with a newspaper, I'll be happy
Yes, well, I wouldn't try it exactly. I was making a point, not saying "Be a pack leader of people & sniff their butts."
- Joined
- Sep 27, 2005
- Messages
- 16,339
- Reaction score
- 4,110
- Location
- East O' The Sun & West O' The Moon
- Website
- www.jlevitt.com
I personally always try to identify the alpha dog in any group and then attempt to bring them down through underhanded means.
And it was on April 2nd, 2007, that the denizens of AW discovered that "rugcat" was really the username of "Snidely Whiplash."
- Status