The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

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James D. Macdonald

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Canada James said:
This falls into the "marketing you don't see your publisher doing".

Well, last night I posted in the Uncle Jim thread what I'm doing by way of my own promotion. And you know that I'm not a big believer in author promotion. You can see what I do on my own.

=================

Poetry is a really hard sell. Self-publishing is traditional there, with the author selling chapbooks from the back of the hall at readings and such. (If you figure that every copy you sell is going to be face-to-face anyway, you aren't losing anything by going with a system where every copy you sell is going to be face-to-face.) Heck, you don't even need and ISBN for that.

What your friend might do is check out the careers of poets whose books you do find on the shelf at B&N, see what their lives and careers were like, and go do the same.
 

Sher2

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DreamWeaver said:
I checked out the website of the author who mentions crime scenes. Unless he splurged for his own editor, I think he is in for a big disappointment, as he has written this on his homepage: He says his novel is now in PA's editing process; it will be interesting to see how long the honeymoon lasts. As always, sad to see another person caught in the scam.
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I kept my BIC all day yesterday and accomplished a great deal. I'm doing the same today. I did, however, visit the Web site mentioned -- out of simple curiosity, you understand. For purposes of remaining within the range of the Nice-O-Matic, may I say simply, "Oh, my."
 

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What a bummer!

:gone: ED!:gone: :gone: :gone: :cry: I guess I might as well go...too!
 

DreamWeaver

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Sher2 said:
For purposes of remaining within the range of the Nice-O-Matic, may I say simply, "Oh, my."
Ken, here I assumed you only did research. But no, you're a full-fledged inventor. I LIKE your Nice-O-Matic!:Clap:

Kris, NOT using the NOM for this one
 

Jeff

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This today, from a published or soon-to-be published author on the Publish America chat board:

Why is it that a handful of detractors (former PA authors) can get their message out, and PA can’t? I understand the negative angle and the media, yet we seem to wait and then respond, when we should be doing just the opposite, taking the initiative.

Because Amo, the message that is getting out is the truth of the matter. You are simply blinding yourself to the reality of the situation. Your publisher/printer cannot afford to "take the initiative" because to do so would bring even more scrutiny to their business in the form of press and unhappy customers. The absolute last thing that PA wants is someone poking around their townhouse, looking in their books, talking to their past customers and generally shining any kind of light on what they do.

I am pleased to see that you are planning on attending an author and writers convention in NYC this month. I suspect that you will have your eyes opened there, unless it is a vanity-press event.

Oh! One other thing, Amo.

You've stated in response to the NYT article that "bullies don't go away unless confronted". If speaking out against the scam that is PA makes one a "bully", then this place is full of them. Lest anyone accuse you of speaking out of the side of your mouth, and since the "bullies" cannot go to where you safely post on PA's message boards and discuss this with you, I've come up with a great idea! Why not come here and engage in a rational, mature and reasonable discussion about your publisher and take on those "bullies" that you declare need to be "confronted" yourself? I can assure you that from my past experience in reading this board you would be welcomed here and not edited or banned for speaking the truth as you see it (of course you will need some facts and figures to back up your claims, this is after all a "confrontation" however friendly it might be).

What do you say, Amo? I hope you will accept the offer.

Amo?

Hello?

Well, we'll keep a light burning in the window for ya.

======================================================
This post has been sanitized by the Nice-O-Matic (tm) system. Any comments that might be construed as somehow not politically correct or which might in some manner ever bruise the feelings of any reader in any manner for any reason are unintentional and the author cannot be held responsible for said bruising. This is a feature, not a bug. No authors were maimed, mutilated, killed or made to wear a nightie in public in the production of this post. Please read responsibly. Do not read and drive. Your milage may vary. Read the prospectus before investing; past gain is not an indicator of future earnings. If you've read this far don't blame me, that's what editors are for. Thanks, Ken.

 
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James D. Macdonald

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Jeff said:
I've come up with a great idea! Why not come here and engage in a rational, mature and reasonable discussion about your publisher and take on those "bullies" that you declare need to be "confronted" yourself?

Jeff, Amo has been out and about defending PA in places other than the PA Messageboard. See, for example, here. (Please notice the Usual Suspects are present.) It's just that he hasn't shown up here yet.
 

Sher2

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Jeff said:
What do you say, Amo? I hope you will accept the offer.

Amo?

Hello?

Well, we'll keep a light burning in the window for ya.
The sanitized version is that Amo has been in danger of seeing the light before and was rushed to be fitted with emergency shades. Keep the light burning, but I wouldn't look for him any time soon.
 

Jeff

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New, from a published or soon-to-be published author on the Publish America chat board:

Message:I was laying in bed tonight thinking about those that bash PA. You know what I'm not going t let you people rain on my parade.

No one is here to rain on your parade, Ann. We are here speaking out about the realities of the publishing business because the company that printed your books has fed you a world of lies. See below.

You say that PA will publish anything, well I know for a fact that that's not true. Because I sent them a ms before I double checked it and guess what they didn't take it.

There can be several reasons for this. Most likely they simply reached their limit of manuscripts for that day and rejected everything else out of hand. They only have the capacity to run so many manuscripts through the spellchecker in one day.

I went back over it and redid the work. I sent the same ms to another company and guess what for a lot of money they were willing to take the ms.

At least the second vanity house that you approached was upfront about the costs. PA, on the other hand, charged you at the back-end by inflating the price of your book by @$5 over the cost of similar books on the market. Tell us, how many of your own books are you going to buy?

PA didn't ask and hasn't asked for any money as a matter of fact they gave me a doolar advance.

You do realize that even with a regular small press the advances run in the thousands of dollars, don't you? That dollar PA gave you was no favour, trust me. They are making it back by inflating the cost of your book and selling it back to you and your family and your friends -- because without placement in a bookstore, who else is going to know about it?

Which maybe to you that doesn't seem like a lot of money but to me that was showing that they have faith in my work.

No Ann. I'm sorry. It simply indicates that you've fallen for PA's scam like so many others.

Also I have read where the PA bashers talk about how sentences aren't always right or words aren't speeled right, guess what I'm reading a book by a well known author and not all of his things are done right and he paid someone to look his work over.

Are you sure he paid someone? Because if he was published by a reputable publishing house, no matter how small, he did not have to pay a dime. Editing (and not just spellchecking) is something that professional publishing houses do for their authors, Ann, because those houses make their money selling books to a discerning public, not just the authors family and friends.

This thought that authors have to pay for editing is just one of the many misconceptions floating around the PA boards that PA does nothing to refute.

So before you say stuff about the authors that write for PA and how PA isn't any good check with other books and see how they compare.

Recently one of my favourite authors produced a terrible book. It was not just terrible in terms of story (which is often in the eye of the beholder) but the book contained numerous spelling errors, grammatical misuses and repeated phrasings. It was disappointing to see such a weak editorial effort from a major publisher. The reviews for that book were terrible. The current book from the same author is, by contrast, tight as a drum and obviously well-edited.

You can bet that somewhere in that major publishing house, Ann, heads rolled.

So sure, sometimes the major houses produce sub-standard work, but they are still the standard on which everyone is judged. You cannot have read much work from your fellow authors if you can honestly claim that PAs product compares at all to what is published professionally.

No one is perfect and everyone makes mistakes but I don't feel that I made a mistake using PA.

You are correct, no one is perfect and everyone makes mistakes. I hope in six months, when you've run out of friends and family to sell your book to, and your first royalty check comes in, that you still feel you did not make a mistake. I suspect if you do, you will be in the minority.

Maybe I could have gone through another company but I'm glad that they gave a chance to see what I can do.

They gave you nothing really, Ann. What they did is spend very little money to print up a few copies of your work in order to entice you to open your pocketbook and buy more. Have you?

Please come to AW and talk to us. You will be welcomed here and we will discuss the realities of the publishing world. We do not bite (much) and if nothing else you will have had the satisfaction of defending your publisher to the very people who "bash" it, in your view.

That is something very few of your fellow authors can claim to have done.

Best Wishes,

Jeff

========================================================
This post has been sanitized by the Nice-O-Matic system. Any comments that might be construed as not politically correct or which might in some manner ever bruise the feelings of any reader in any manner for any reason are unintentional and the author cannot be held responsible for said bruising. This is a feature, not a bug. No authors were maimed, mutilated, killed or made to wear a nightie in public in the production of this post. Please read responsibly. Do not read and drive. Your milage may vary. Read the prospectus before investing, past gain is not an indicator of future earnings. Ed, come back. If you've read this far don't blame me, that's what editors are for. Thanks Ken.

 
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Jeff

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Jeff, Amo has been out and about defending PA in places other than the PA Messageboard.

Thanks James. I just need to get out and read more!

Although I cannot find where Amo ever responded to your questions in the thread? That surely was not much of an example of confronting the "bullies". :)

Offer still stands, Amo!
 
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James D. Macdonald

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Jeff said:
Although I cannot find where Amo ever responded to your questions in the thread? That surely was not much of an example of confronting the "bullies".

I asked him those same questions in a couple of threads when he popped over to defend PA.

No, he never did respond.

Meanwhile, I've been wicked.

(Y'all can link to that if you want.)
 

reph

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a PA author Jeff quoted said:
Why is it that a handful of detractors (former PA authors) can get their message out, and PA can’t?
Here at Detraction Central, we can't even get the message out that we're not all former PA authors. It isn't that we haven't said so. It must be that they're not listening.
 

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ResearchGuy said:
James N. Frey has some pertinent comments in his How to Write a Damn Good Novel. There, in a brief discussion of types of writers groups (pp. 153-155), he says of the easygoing "puff" group that "this type of group has ruined ... writers ...." He goes on, "You can gain nothing from flattery. It will destroy your determination by making you think your highly flawed first draft is a finished masterpiece." He endorses the highly critical "destructive groups" as "the only kind that are truly worthwhile."
I'd agree that puff groups are useless. But I'd argue that groups that are harsh for harshness's sake are equally useless, and can ruin writers in a different way by seriously damaging their sense of their own worth. I was part of one, once upon a time, and the feeding frenzy of criticism--much of it (I can see in hindsight) fueled by fragile egos and jealousy, rather than by any genuine critical thought--that accompanied every story was one of the most negative experiences I've ever had. What I learned from this group was that I never wanted to be part of a writers' group again.

There's an enormous difference between forthright, constructive criticism, which may be hard to take, and criticism simply for the sake of ripping something to shreds. And there's nothing wrong with praise where praise is due, or even praise to offset the sting of a sharp critique. In my destructive group, no one ever said anything good about anyone else's work, even if it deserved it. IMO, to point out the good is as much a part of the critiquer's job as to identify the problems.

- Victoria
 

Patricia

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This is one of the more. . .

stupid things Clophead has said.

NewsChannel 4 asked him to name one big title or bestseller by Publish America. He couldn't, but quickly pointed out neither could most publishing companies.

If by most, he means Vanity-and POD, he may have a nudge of truth there, but he meant to imply "major publishing companies." That is his style.
 
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James D. Macdonald

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victoriastrauss said:
There's an enormous difference between forthright, constructive criticism, which may be hard to take, and criticism simply for the sake of ripping something to shreds.

You might want to look for a group where half of the members are where you are right now, and half are where you want to be.

Book Publisher -- PublishAmerica
 

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Amo from PA board said:
I know many authors are “grateful” for just being “published”, well if that’s all it takes, then I have no comment for those authors, because you’ve already lowered the bar for yourselves, however I don’t subscribe to being “grateful” and not wanting the best possible chance for both my publisher and myself, and I understand the dynamics of this industry and the tensions between the “establishment” and publishing houses like PA, however I don’t see PA taking the battle to them (the establishment), the play defense.

There are countless writing conventions and author forums taking place around the country, I’m attending one in NYC at the end of this month, that’s where the “battle” is, I’ve never seen any representation from PA, at these conventions and again, that’s where the battle is, debate them and set the record strait. I’ve done countless book fairs around this country, and I’ve never seen any representation from PA at any of these book fairs.

Why is it that a handful of detractors (former PA authors) can get their message out, and PA can’t? I understand the negative angle and the media, yet we seem to wait and then respond, when we should be doing just the opposite, taking the initiative.

I’m in NYC, the publishing capital of the world, yet there’s no representation from PA, not even a PO Box…that’s my point!

Amo sounds like a bright guy. He needs to bring it over here and have a little chat with Uncle Jim.
 

victoriastrauss

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Well, I've finally caught up (whew!) after a number of days out of town and a glitch that kept me off the boards for most of yesterday.

I'm really distressed to see that Ed has left. I hope that his frustration is a passing one, and that he will come back--I already miss his insight and humor. (Ed, my man, the AW addiction is not so easy to shake. Just when you thought you were out...)

I think that the concern for sparing PA authors' tender feelings has gotten out of hand. Personal attacks on or protracted ridicule of individuals is not kosher, but I don't think that making occasional fun of mis-spellings or silly promotional ideas and the like rises to that level. If you put yourself out there in cyberspace, you're opening yourself to public scrutiny and comment; it goes with the territory. People on the PA boards aren't shy about making fun of and correcting one another, so it's not like they've never experienced it. And unlike the PA boards, anyone we talk about here is free to show up and respond.

I know it has been said that some PA authors who'd like to participate here are put off by the tone of some of the posts, but many don't seem to have a problem with it, as indicated by the constant influx of new members--who are ALWAYS warmly welcomed. I think that this, as well as the really amazingly friendly atmosphere of this thread (which as a veteran of Usenet, I can tell you is incredibly unusual for an online discussion, especially one as protracted as this) does as much as anything to make the point that it's PA we're after, not its authors. If some of the talk here isn't always kind and gentle and glowing with positivity, well, we're human. Humor is fun.

If I see something I consider inappropriate, I'll let y'all know (ah, the godlike power of the moderator, who decides what's appropriate and what isn't! Just call me Mistress Benevolent Dictator). For now, I don't have any problem with the tone of the discussion, and I'm hoping that the arguments over it can cease.

- Victoria
 

DreamWeaver

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Memphis Ed said:
Amo sounds like a bright guy. He needs to bring it over here and have a little chat with Uncle Jim.
He needs to stop a moment, read his OWN words, and think what they imply.
Amo from PA Board said:
...I don’t see PA taking the battle to them (the establishment)
...I’ve never seen any representation from PA, at these conventions
...I’ve never seen any representation from PA at any of these book fairs.
... I’m in NYC, the publishing capital of the world, yet there’s no representation from PA, not even a PO Box…that’s my point!
Amo, I think I got your point. I'm just not sure it's the one you were trying to make.

Kris
</NOM>
 
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clintl

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victoriastrauss said:
I'd agree that puff groups are useless. But I'd argue that groups that are harsh for harshness's sake are equally useless, and can ruin writers in a different way by seriously damaging their sense of their own worth.

I agree. For a writing group to be useful, the critiques need to honest. But writers need feedback on what is working as well as what isn't.
 

ResearchGuy

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DreamWeaver said:
Ken, here I assumed you only did research. But no, you're a full-fledged inventor. I LIKE your Nice-O-Matic!:Clap:

Kris, NOT using the NOM for this one
Shamelessly off-topic: for my 'career' as an 'inventor', see http://home.inreach.com/kumbach/bio.html. Perhaps I will add the Nice-O-Matic(TM) to that saga, once I finally describe the Macrowave Oven.

--Ken

p.s. I hereby grant a royalty-free license to all AW posters to apply the Nice-O-Matic[tm] to their posts.
 
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James D. Macdonald

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Thinking about ol' Larry's various diatribes recalls to mind this adage:

When the law is against you, argue the facts. When the facts are against you, argue the law. When the law and the facts are against you, pound on the table.
Larry's pounding on that table something fierce.
 

Sher2

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James D. Macdonald said:
Thinking about ol' Larry's various diatribes recalls to mind this adage:

When the law is against you, argue the facts. When the facts are against you, argue the law. When the law and the facts are against you, pound on the table.
Larry's pounding on that table something fierce.
There's also this one: If you can't dazzle them with the truth, baffle 'em with BS. Larry's a master at that, too.

Rolling on, totally not sanitized,
www.publishamericasucks.com, The Tour
 

Christine N.

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Sher2 said:
There's also this one: If you can't dazzle them with the truth, baffle 'em with BS. Larry's a master at that, too.

Rolling on, totally not sanitized,
www.publishamericasucks.com, The Tour

Anybody see Chicago? I watched it again this morning. PA could be like 'ol Billy Flynn.

"Give 'em the old Razzle -Dazzle..."

"...Long as you keep 'em way off balance, they'll never spot
you've got no talent..."
 

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Ann said:
stupid things Clophead has said.

NewsChannel 4 asked him to name one big title or bestseller by Publish America. He couldn't, but quickly pointed out neither could most publishing companies.

Well, he was right. Most publishing companies can't name one big title or bestseller by PublishAmerica.
 

lindylou45

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James D. Macdonald said:
Jeff, Amo has been out and about defending PA in places other than the PA Messageboard. See, for example, here. (Please notice the Usual Suspects are present.) It's just that he hasn't shown up here yet.

Isn't Amo the guy that was selling promotion workshops for $60.00 a pop a year or so ago? I wonder if he's still doing that.
 
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