What makes a villian someone you want to hear and don't think is over the top?

Someone who feels as if they could exist in the real world. Even if under normal circumstances the character would have felt over the top, the story can be written in a way that makes us empathize, and sometimes sympathize. They become human, even if cartoonish.

Hannibal Lector in The Silence of the Lambs
Long John Silver in Treasure Island
Clare Quilty in Lolita
The Joker in The Killing Joke (graphic novel)
Mr. Kurtz in Heart of Darkness
Tom Ripley in The Talented Mr. Ripley

Chigurh in No Country for Old Men is, in my opinion the perfect villan. He is not explained, he cannot be reasoned with. He is fate and he is chaos and there is no way you can stop him. He's barely a human being, more of an elemental force of nature.

On the other hand, Milton's Satan is perfect as well. Unlike Chigurh, we see his motivations, we know why he is the way he is. In the opening books of Paradise Lost, when he is in hell surrounded by his soldiers he seems the height of nobility.

During book 1 he is raising their spirits after the greatest defeat any army will ever face. ARISE, ARISE OR BE FOREVER FALLEN. He is dashing, he is noble. He seems the perfect military commander. You think to yourself, man, I would follow this guy into battle (he's so good we forget that their sitting around the lake of fire)

In book 2 Satan's more manipulative side comes out. During the debate into what to do he subtly steers to the course he is set on. It's so subtle that you don't notice it unless you're looking for it. He makes the fallen angels think he is great because he is democratic. Of course he's nothing of the sort. He is just eclipsed by rage and hate at God. Still, you would walk through fire for him. Satan presents himself as the liberator, the one being that has the stones to stand up to that asshole God.

So convincing is Satan's portrayal during these first two books is that Philip Pullman writes His Dark Materials (A quote from book 2) as a new war in heaven between a new Satan for the freedom of mankind from tyranny. Of course, he's mistaken, Satan is motivated by malice and hate, not love and ideals. As the poem progresses Satan's true nature becomes more and more obvious (his first sight of Adam and Eve is fantastic in his expression of pure malevolence and jealousy at their happiness), in the end he is just a vicious snake, biting at himself for eternity.

Yeah, Satan is the best villan. He's pretty 'over the top' though. He's the prince of darkness. In Milton everything is writ large.

Mr. Kurtz in Heart of Darkness

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Kurtz isn't the baddie in Heart of Darkness, mankind itself is. I maintain that he's the sanest character in that entire book.

I agree with ccv707. I like villains to be human characters. I like it when they are motivated by personal things, like personal revenge or some kind of personal ideology, not matter how wrong it seems to the rest of the world. Money-driven characters are kind of bland, in my opinion.

Then again, having characters who do evil things for the sake of doing them are interesting. But they have to be interesting characters all around for this to work, at least for me.

I can't say I have any personal favorite villains. I generally don't have "favorites" when it comes to characters, strangely enough...

A mustache is usually a bad sign. Unless you're me and you like the ridiculous villains. Then it's usually a great sign. Unless it's Tom Selleck (literary Tom Selleck, of course). Then it's usually a bad sign.

Interesting thread....

Nearly all the main characters in my book are "bad guys." I just try to show them as humanly as possible. Like beckykw said, they are mostly motivated by personal revenge and personal ideology.

Then again, in The Godfather series and films they were mostly bad guys, yet people cared enough to follow the whole dang saga. To answer your original question, I think a villain has to be almost like the hero in a Greek tragedy, someone brought to lowest depths by their own weakness or flaws.

I meant to point out that villains can be incredibly "real" even if they aren't human. A writer has the ability to humanize characters. Kurtz made a good example of Milton's Satan in Paradise Lost, who is one of the most eloquently drawn antagonist characters in literature.

As with Gatita, many of my own characters fall into the gray area between "enemy" and "hero", and it depends on your perspective within the story to make up your mind as to what they are. Michael Corleone is another good example of a pseudo-hero that becomes a villain through circumstance and both internal and external corruption.

I like smart villains with a sense of humour. Everyone has already spoken of the most important quality, that villains themselves don't consider themselves to be villains. That they are human and have ambitions etc. The more three dimensional, as with all characters, the more interesting.

Ben Linus, though, on LOST has got to be one of my latest fav villains, for both the writing and the acting. He is a man with a master plan, incredibly smart, and always a few steps ahead of everyone, but at the same time petty and vulnerable, and prey to acting out rashly. He's also very funny and tends to be emotionally opposite of what would normally be expected in a particular moment. Thus he isn't just an evil genius, he is also just a person. A very nasty person who ALWAYS LIES, but a person nonetheless. (Seriously though, how do the writers manage to convince me every time that this time, this time, he's telling the truth, when inevitably he isn't?? Amazing.)

My favorite villains are the ones that could be the hero - only they don't limit themselves to lines they refuse to cross.

To me,

A great villian must have 'depth'. You ever meet people who are wise beyond their years, or are filled with enormous character?

The villian must also conform to a set of self imposed rules since we all do. This gives the reader the ability to understand the villian.

My favorite villian of all time comes from C.S. Friedman's Black Sun Rising

The villian is a sorta demonic vampire/wizard who sold his soul for immortality. He is also smart and 'noble'. As the story progresses, you feel an enormous depth to him through his actions, dialogue, and interaction with those around him. Soon, you begin to understand him while at the same time being capativated by how evil he is.

Anyways, my answer. Villians that have 'depth' and a consistancy to their thoughts and actions. Not to say they are predictable, just consistant (if that makes any sense).

Mel...

Whee! I love you guys! I was stuck between two characters to be the primary nasty and reading this thread has knocked the competition out. I have a winner now!

See, I didn't think anyone else really thought like me. I tend to root for the bad guys most of the time. I like those characters but dangit, I don't want them to be completely destroyed either. I rooted for Jaws, I rooted for King Kong, I rooted for the dinos in the park. The same holds true for human characters too, if the writer gives me reason to feel for them and their plight.

Yay for not feeling like an evil groupie all alone in the world...

ETA: I realize these are primarily films I used as examples, but the principle would still stand for the written story

We just had a discussion on this in the SFF weekly chat. I went off looking for the transcript but I couldn't find one.

Bahamutbrat, or, well, anyone responsible for it, any of you have it or know where it is?

Some good stuff came out of there.

If you are looking to make some really good bad guys i think i would suggest the game Assassin's Creed. The player character was the only one that you knew was a good guy.

I don't often suggest games.