So did you guys hear what James Frey is up to now?

That's just sad that MFA programs don't prepare people for the industry. But what James Frey is doing is just deplorable. He's no better than a con artist at this point. Like I said before, I really hope people read the contracts and see that this is big "get rich" scheme from Frey.

artemis31386 said:

That's just sad that MFA programs don't prepare people for the industry. But what James Frey is doing is just deplorable. He's no better than a con artist at this point. Like I said before, I really hope people read the contracts and see that this is big "get rich" scheme from Frey.

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Maybe I'm naive, but I really don't see how people could fall for this, be they MFA graduates or any other kind of writer. The fact that Frey is well-known for unscrupulous actions should make this even more difficult to pull off.

MacAllister said:

Never underestimate the gullibility of idealistic, hopeful, and naive writers. Any time someone wants something very badly and knows a lot less than they think they know, they're a prime target for a fast-talking con man.

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I know. I know. They don't even have to be fast talking. I've had friends ask for my advice. I gave it to them. They ignored it. YES...one of them asked me what I thought of PA. I told them. A couple of months later, they were proudly published.

People are desperate and they are professionally ignorant of anything getting in their way. The BLINDERS are HUGE, people.

sleepsheep said:

Maybe I'm naive, but I really don't see how people could fall for this, be they MFA graduates or any other kind of writer. The fact that Frey is well-known for unscrupulous actions should make this even more difficult to pull off.

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He's already pulled this off, and he's continuing to pull it off. Apparently, it's not difficult.

He certainly isn't the only person doing this. Whether he's the scummiest, I can't say. Wouldn't surprise me.

These people really must think they have to literally starve for their art. No one should come out of school thinking their time is worth so little. That prof needs his/her head examined for letting that kind of mis-information into the classroom.

Bs_08 said:

i do agree that just because someone graduates an MFA program doesn't mean their writing is actually WORTH anything but to think that 250/500 is okay for six months of writing (where the book might not even get published and you might never see another dime?) wow.... a self published book can make more than that in 6 months.

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Heck, I made more than $250 on my first short story sale.

I took a quick look at the contract language. Ho. Ly. Crap.

Bs_08 said:

agreed. especially in new york there seems to be this romantic notion of the starving brooklyn/manhattan artist with his/her laptop and a mug of coffee in some cafe typing away. THAT SHIT NEEDS TO STOP (well the 'starving' part, the rest of it i don't mind.) these poor kids graduate thousands of dollars in debt, thet need to be held by the hand and explained how to support themselves, preferably through writing. i do agree that just because someone graduates an MFA program doesn't mean their writing is actually WORTH anything but to think that 250/500 is okay for six months of writing (where the book might not even get published and you might never see another dime?) wow.... a self published book can make more than that in 6 months.

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That's what I don't get. These are graduate students, not undergrads. And since the MFA is like a doctorate, many of them are fully funded, with housing stipends! I don't understand why anyone would agree to this, unless they thought that it was a legitimate gig that would boost their CV... and even a tiny little bit of online research should eliminate that as a possibility.

In my field, computer science, we don't do a damn thing unless we're getting paid, and even the lowliest frosh intern earns more than the federal minimum wage.

There's something wrong with professional subcultures in which people think they need to work for free to get a foot in the door, or some shit.

Never mind work for free, people think they actually need to pay to get published.

Where the fuck did this start??

SPMiller said:

There's something wrong with professional subcultures in which people think they need to work for free to get a foot in the door, or some shit.

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Or worse, when people think that working for money is beneath them. Until they have to work for money.

Sometimes I think there's a willful ignorance about money among some professional subcultures. I don't understand it.

When I was in college there was a general view in and outside of the art, English, and history departments that there were no jobs in these fields. There was no expectation of making money with them except in teaching. At one school the professors tried to discourage us from taking degrees in them, suggesting we find something we could use to survive.

At the other school, well, there was that art is above money thing going on. There was also, and I think this is part of the problem, the concept that artists and writers of real literature, shouldn't know too much about the unenlightened world beyond art and the university.

The schools I attended did not have an MFA, but I suspect the view would have been the same for it.

As long as idealism is praised and cynicism rebuked kids won't be able to protect themselves.

So what's the name of this scandal? The MFA/YA Mill? The Frey Mill?

sleepsheep said:

Maybe I'm naive, but I really don't see how people could fall for this, be they MFA graduates or any other kind of writer. The fact that Frey is well-known for unscrupulous actions should make this even more difficult to pull off.

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MacAllister said:

Never underestimate the gullibility of idealistic, hopeful, and naive writers. Any time someone wants something very badly and knows a lot less than they think they know, they're a prime target for a fast-talking con man.

"That book you can't even get an agent to look at? Why don't you run it by me -- I've got a few connections. No promises, of course, and it'll mean a lot of hard work...but I really think we can at least get your foot in the door with some of the movers and shakers in the publishing industry..."

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Look at the groups commonly called cults, they recruit a LOT of members from college campuses. Of course I didn't get sucked into a cult until age 30, but that's a different topic. Or, thinking back to much of the content of "A Million Little Pieces," perhaps not. <Ben is This Close to stepping back on his Soap Box/Hobby Horse once again> I've been angry at James Frey, but for quite different reasons than most people.

jennontheisland said:

Never mind work for free, people think they actually need to pay to get published.

Where the fuck did this start??

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Through not being able to get anything published. I know this is difficult for those who have managed to get things published through traditional methods, but if you haven't, or are naive and ignorant, and have a little money, the temptation is out there.

People fall for Nigerian inheritance scams.

sleepsheep said:

That's what I don't get. These are graduate students, not undergrads.

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Which means . . . what? I have a lot of experience with graduate students, and was one myself. You think their DNA is different, somehow?

At school in Iowa, I once was a friend with a grad student from New York City, who approached me one day with a question he was embarrassed to ask, but we had arrived at a position of mutual respect and trust, so he did: The question was:

"Do hens die when they lay an egg?"

Never underestimate the power of pure ignorance.

sleepsheep said:

I don't see what this has to do with the MFA program. It's a very standard program, and has been around forever.

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Sleep, the article linked isn't about the Columbia MFA program. It's about this particular sleazebag's program, coupled with a criticism of Columbia's opening the door to allow him to sell it on their premises. Seems to me that criticism is fully justified. Do you think for a heartbeat that Columbia University would allow the perpetrators of the Nigerian inheritance scam to come speak to students in classrooms?

jennontheisland said:

Never mind work for free, people think they actually need to pay to get published.

Where the fuck did this start??

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Pre-nineteenth century when editors looked at sale rights and thought 'hey, there is money in this.'

None of this surprises me at all. What surprised me was this guy's still writing books (which are being published).

Frey's one of the co-writers (as: "Pittacus Lore") of "I am Number Four", which is a YA alien tale. (and horribly written, IMO - the perfect example of how not to write 1st Present)

Cyia said:

None of this surprises me at all. What surprised me was this guy's still writing books (which are being published).

Frey's one of the co-writers (as: "Pittacus Lore") of "I am Number Four", which is a YA alien tale. (and horribly written, IMO - the perfect example of how not to write 1st Present)

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yes, as a writer he's a certifiable fucknugget. as a human, he is wholly unscrupulous.

blacbird said:

Which means . . . what? I have a lot of experience with graduate students, and was one myself. You think their DNA is different, somehow?

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It means that they are older, and therefore wiser... I'd assume.

MacAllister said:

Never underestimate the gullibility of idealistic, hopeful, and naive writers. Any time someone wants something very badly and knows a lot less than they think they know, they're a prime target for a fast-talking con man.

"That book you can't even get an agent to look at? Why don't you run it by me -- I've got a few connections. No promises, of course, and it'll mean a lot of hard work...but I really think we can at least get your foot in the door with some of the movers and shakers in the publishing industry..."

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Especially after they've dropped $40,000 on a program and are looking at an additional six figures of debt once they receive that degree...

sleepsheep said:

It means that they are older, and therefore wiser... I'd assume.

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They're still young, and it's this kind of experience that will make them wiser. Wisdom doesn't come with age, it comes with being taken, and realizing it.

Some kids are very wise, some old people are just old and foolish.

James Frey is a lowlife, but this does not mean he won't prosper, and sure doesn't mean he can't continue to scam people of this age for decades to come.

sleepsheep said:

It means that they are older, and therefore wiser... I'd assume.

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If this were true, the phrase "book smart, street dumb" wouldn't exist.