Modern Capitalism and Mitt/Barry - a good read

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chuckybrown70

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You will hear a lot of debate in the coming weeks over the impending debt ceiling increase. It is a hot bed issue. The fiscally conservative side of the aisle will insist we need to limit spending and show constraint. The financially liberal spendthrifts, on the other hand, will insist they need to increase the debt limit to stimulate a sagging economy. Well, whatever side you lean towards, I have an entirely different way of looking at this situation. There is a way to solve poverty, rid unemployment, end government borrowing and create wealth while still rewarding innovation within a capitalistic framework. People need to spend profit. Let me explain.

Let’s start on a small scale. Imagine a closed system between two people. Assume person one, let’s call him Mitt, and person two, let’s call him Barry, both have needs. Both start with $10 and they both have a commodity or a service the other person needs (we will call this “being able-bodied”). Mitt sells that need to Barry for $10. Now Barry has $20 but he needs a service from Mitt, so now he pays Mitt $10 for the service he needs. Both people now have their needs met and they both once again have $10 each.

What happens when Barry needs that service again, but this time he does not SPEND as much, he chooses to save $2. Well, when it comes time for Mitt to buy back the service that he needs, he has $8 and not the $10 needed to meet the original demand. He’ll only be able to purchase 80% he needs. Uh oh. We are starting to fall out of equilibrium.

You might ask why Mitt would give Barry a discount. Well, Barry’s his only friend so he figures he’ll help him out. But then, Barry saves $2 again. Mitt now only has $6; again he must buy less. Meanwhile, as Mitt is struggling, Barry’s sitting on his pile of 40 bucks, aka his savings. If this cycle continues, then Barry will eventually end up with all the money and Mitt will not be able to meet any of his needs. This is what is happening in the world today. Spending money instead of saving money would end that inequity.

Let’s take the next step. Let’s apply this idea to the real world. We will limit it to the United States. We currently have 99.2% of the population earning under $250k per year (these are our Mitts); .8% earn more (our Barrys). As a very general idea we will say that the Mitts of the world may be able to meet their needs but will not have money to spare or save. Yet, the Barrys will have a potential profit that they can save. If this assumption is somewhat true this means that 992 people out of 1000 don’t save a nominal amount, and 8 do have the ability to save.

Now, let’s add another element to this national equation, major corporations. These companies profit millions and billions. This is a great thing, without them we would not have cures for cancer, or pro sports, or computers to type this op-ed. I would not want to punish them for innovation. So I have an idea on how to encourage this progress and still SPEND our way out of poverty. But first let’s take it one step further.

Let’s apply the idea on a global scale. There are many people in the world that want to work, yet there is no one to employ them. What would make them happy is working a job that they enjoy, providing for their family, and not needing to worry where the next paycheck is coming from. This type of ambition leads to the beautifully symbiotic relationship between entrepreneurs and workers; where people with great ideas and risk takers need help making their dreams come true and can employ people that want to work and allow the entrepreneurs to earn profit from them.
Everyone thinks the human experience is to have a job, but the real human experience is to give a job. Every time you spend money you are hiring someone. Most people don’t ever realize that. Even the lowest income person is a “job creator.” Every time we go to the grocery store or rent a movie or buy sneakers we are all employing people. If you spend money you are enabling people to make money and consequently spend money with someone else. Unfortunately, as people earn profit, they sometimes choose to save the extra money , taking dollars out of the system. This is the loss of equilibrium that we visited in our first example.

I have presented economic theory: capitalism, equilibrium, the effect of savings vs spending, and employment. Let’s now tie it all together. Let’s have capitalism work for us. It will create innovation and incentivize excellence. Once this is achieved the people who are the most motivated, skilled and perform the best will be rewarded by earning the most money. Probably will still be 8 out of 1000 people. But these people who create all the money will then announce their profit to the world at year end, and as of the next year end they will have to spend all the profit. They will make an effort to be socially responsible and employ people. Thus, those employees will now have money to spend. If the profiteers continue to innovate then clearly the employees that are now rewarded with the opportunity to work, will be happy to spend their money and support those profiteers. There will be no need for income tax. The government will exist off of sales tax and it will be limited to provide all the infrastructure to support the new commerce. The government will spend all of the tax. In this way they too will be pumping money into the system. There will be full employment. No need to borrow. No more debt ceiling debate. We can end poverty, all we need to do is stop saving and SPEND the money.
 

Don

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Agorism FTW!
I. Just. Can't. Even.

Anybody? Bueller?

:popcorn:
 

RichardGarfinkle

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It's not worth the energy to refute point by point.

I'll try it in one general math shot.

OP, please take your abstract description.
Turn it into actual algebraic formulae.
Plug in numbers derived from real world experience.
Demonstrate how this accords with your hypothesis.
Then and only then will it be worth the effort to argue with you.
 

Xelebes

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It's not worth the energy to refute point by point.

I'll try it in one general math shot.

OP, please take your abstract description.
Turn it into actual algebraic formulae.
Plug in numbers derived from real world experience.
Demonstrate how this accords with your hypothesis.
Then and only then will it be worth the effort to argue with you.

The algebraic fomulation for my refutation looks like this:

Code:
~r

Yes, I'm being pithy and I should probably delete this and act like I've never responded to this thread. But I thought I would see who could parse that formulation.
 

Williebee

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I have an entirely different way of looking at this situation.


It's not new, sorry. And the logic holes and incomplete lines of thought make it look like Sponge Bob after an unfortunate desert adventure.

Nonetheless, Chuckybrown70, welcome to AW and P&CE. Please, read the Newbie guide and the stickies at the top of the forum rooms, thanks. I hope it works out for you and us.
 

rugcat

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Nonetheless, Chuckybrown70, welcome to AW and P&CE. Please, read the Newbie guide and the stickies at the top of the forum rooms, thanks. I hope it works out for you and us.
Oh, I'm sure it will.

Those whose very first post is a long, involved screed that provides a simple solution to a complex problem (albeit it through confused and confusing verbiage) usually end up as long term members with valuable contributions to make.
 

Ketzel

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Oh my! I haven't felt so energized about dashing to the mall and blowing the budget since Rudy Guiliani said the best thing Americans could do after 9/11 was their Christmas shopping!
 

chuckybrown70

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thanks for all those who have read and posted....

guess at this point would like to hear from anyone who agrees with this general hypothesis and like to discuss the possibility.

williebee -- curious who has already proposed this idea. the idea of "spending to prosperity"? thanks

cheers to all.
 

Williebee

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Googling "Spending to prosperity" brought me "About 25,600,000 results (0.31 seconds)" In the first five of my search was one from 1975.

Some refer to business spending, others to government spending.
John Maynard Keynes had some thoughts on the matter back in the '30's.

Just two other things, as a practical matter. First, you don't get to decide who responds to the thread, or what they are going to think of your points. For example, you've got your "Barry" and your 'Mitt" reversed.
 

chuckybrown70

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google search --- yep --- i have done that already before I wrote this little piece. read them all.

liked this one: http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/does-government-spending-bring-prosperity#axzz2h088O4NN
as you mention, from 1975

but none are saying what i am saying. they are talking about govt spending. i am talking about personal spending, corp spending, and lastly that the govt spends. so it is a bit different.

i really appreciate you took the time to google it and i really appreciate your feedback and attention you have given to my peace. it is all helpful.

as for mitt and barry -- funny you mention they are reversed. they are fictional characters, they do not exist, so why or should i say how can they be reversed? now if you said you like the irony that mitt is the liberal and barry is the conservative, then you would be correct and it was done on purpose... i thought it was a nice way to write the story thus trying to break the stereotype.
 

Wilde_at_heart

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Googling "Spending to prosperity" brought me "About 25,600,000 results (0.31 seconds)" In the first five of my search was one from 1975.

Some refer to business spending, others to government spending.
John Maynard Keynes had some thoughts on the matter back in the '30's.

Just two other things, as a practical matter. First, you don't get to decide who responds to the thread, or what they are going to think of your points. For example, you've got your "Barry" and your 'Mitt" reversed.

What a lot of people don't understand is the importance of what's called 'the velocity of money' to the economy. It's unfortunate that 'Austrian School' idiocy is extremely popular again because it's almost complete rubbish. Basically, the money supply itself doesn't matter that much if it's not going into the general economy.

Right now, too much is either being hoarded in offshore bank accounts, in absurdly priced real estate and inflated stock holdings. Meanwhile the middle class - the people whose spending the economy ultimately depends upon - is continually shrinking.

I suppose that was the point the article in the OP was trying to make, albeit rather ineptly.
 

robeiae

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Troll or no troll, the problem with the piece is that it's not about "capitalism" at all. It's barely about economics, since Chucky doesn't appear to grasp that "saving" takes different forms. Where one puts such savings can change the nature of it, with respect to the economy as a whole. Having one's saving, for instance, in stocks, bonds, and mutual funds is not taking the money out of the economy.

As to the concept of economic equilibrium, it's a non-starter as used here. Dynamic, complex systems only reach this kind of equilibrium when they die.

The overall problem with the piece is that it's just too naive, based as it is on the underlying assumption that the world as a whole could somehow act as a collective, with the good of the many being the principle driver behind everything. 'Tis silly. It ignores the issues of freeriders, of business cycles, of incentives, and of a host of other things. Makes me think of Copland, though...
 

Ketzel

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Makes me think of Copland, though...

Aaron? Or that movie with Sylvester Stallone?
 

chuckybrown70

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robeiae -- thank you for the comment.

Quote:
The overall problem with the piece is that it's just too naive, based as it is on the underlying assumption that the world as a whole could somehow act as a collective, with the good of the many being the principle driver behind everything. 'Tis silly. It ignores the issues of freeriders, of business cycles, of incentives, and of a host of other things. Makes me think of Copland, though...

yes it might be naive -- but i would like to say it is short and to the point. it is not a book. it is a 650 word op-ed. the 400 page book might be next, but it has to start somewhere. i just saw the lyrics for the john lennon song "IMAGINE" pretty amazing idea... but could it be implemented? probably not, for the reasons you mentioned, but is that the purpose of the song?

so yes it could be called, naive, but it also could be said that someone was writing a story that people, a lot of people could read, because it is an easy, short, interesting read. with a bit of irony. now im not tooting my own horn, and i am not looking for accolades or a prize for this idea. just looking for feedback.

so far:
i was asked if i researched this idea -- yes
i was told my characters were reversed -- yes on purpose
it is naive -- yes it fits in a 650 word op ed

this is great, this is criticism i want --- if anyone is reading this thread, bring it on, let me know more about the idea. i would love to hire someone to help me with this idea. or collaborate. that is why i joined this forum and presented this piece. maybe i will find one or two people that are great writers that love the idea, maybe i will not.

as for the troll comment. is that someone who likes to argue?? i never knew what the troll thing "really" means --- i am pretty sure you ares saying it negatively? but what have i done to be a troll? am i arguing with anyone? or do i have the wrong meaning? i know i can google it ;)

cheers.

keep it coming.
 

Rhoda Nightingale

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Are you looking for feedback assuming this is a nonfiction piece that you're trying to sell? Because if so, you might be in the wrong sub-forum.
 

Haggis

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Essentially you've just told me you're looking for criticism of a piece you've already written. That, Mr. chuckybrown70, is going to cost you 50 posts in which you engage the community (as opposed to throw away posts). If you'd read the newbie stickies you'd have realized that you need 50 posts under your belt before you're allowed to post a piece for criticism. So take a step back, read the stickies--particularly those that pertain to newbies and begin participating. Once you've reached those 50 posts, PM me and I'll consider reopening this one.
 
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