New ACORN info... new thread

robeiae said:

These continued attempts to undermine Jimmy's claims by attacking his sources--and nothing more--are getting annoying, imo.

National Review is as valid a source as any opinion piece from the Washington Post, NYT, or LA Times. It's as valid a source as anything from the Huffington Post, Media Matters, or Slate.

If you guys can actually demonstrate that something in the story is factually incorrect, I would LOVE to see it.

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Agreed and seconded.

mscelina said:

Actually, I'm backing Jimmy on this one. Links between ACORN and voter fraud are coming to light in the national news today. This may just be another piece in the puzzle. National Review isn't any more biased than some of the sacred cows of media sourcing--Time, Newsweek and the such. It's a respected media organization.

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Also agreed.

Let's talk about the veracity of the claims in the article, folks.

InfinityGoddess said:

And to answer about my own "lefty" reads, I only use those as my starting points and I follow the links. That Washington Post article I dug up? I found the link at DailyKos just now.

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Excuse me, but your entire attack on Limbaugh as a racist was a product of MediaMatters links. Don't try to back your way out of this. It won't fly.

LMAO! How did I miss that?

mscelina said:

You know, the willful blindness to observe the political process through bias amazes me. It's telling that you used the word 'us', IG. It shows me that you identify so strongly with the Democratic party that you cannot separate yourself from it long enough to be critical.

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I'm not a Democrat. Never have been, and they've long been disappointments to me. "Us"? That means "us liberals". "Liberal" and "Democrat" are not synonymous with one another, as there are conservative and moderate Dems as well. It's a myth to suggest otherwise.

Just because you think it's all 'nonsense' doesn't make it so. The ACORN investigation has spread to ten states now. If there is a substantial link betwen ACORN and the Obama campaign, it could be the event that swings the election. *shrug* I doubt he's directly involved but any link to his campaign would be fatal.

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To which they have fully cooperated with the investigations. If you read Jimmy's other ACORN thread, he effectively defeated his own argument by posting links to articles that said as much. Not much came out of those investigations, save for a few bad apples. I would also suggest that you read my edit in my last post as well, that it's telling that the RNC and the McCain campaign want to see some dirt dug up on this organization and badly.

It would be better, I think, to analyze the possibilities before dismissing the issue, IG. This has the potential to be huge and apologists need to be able to have more ammunition than opinion and nonsense if they're going to be successful.

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This isn't opinion. The biggest worry is voter suppression, not voter fraud.

robeiae said:

Excuse me, but your entire attack on Limbaugh as a racist was a product of MediaMatters links. Don't try to back your way out of this. It won't fly.

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I'm not backing away from that particular episode, and I stick by it too. I've heard some of those clips. They were bigoted comments towards women and people of color. Some were more subtle than others.

Let's talk about ACORN, shall we? Why don't we look at three different news sources and see if we can identify the one that slants?

http://www.kvbc.com/Global/story.asp?S=9139135&nav=15MUCBSd

According to the Secretary of State's Office, at least one ACORN employee turned in completed voter registration forms that used the names of the Dallas Cowboys football team.

Secretary of State Ross Miller says he wants the investigation finished before voters go to the polls.

"We warned these groups time and time again that we weren't going to put up with any registration voter fraud because we don't want fraudulent names on the voter rolls because that's the safeguard for making sure only those people who are eligible to vote are able to cast ballots."

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Oh--but there could be local news station bias! Hold on:

Let's analyze the potential for slant from The Huffington Post:

The involvement of the U.S. Attorney's Office in a raid on the Las Vegas offices of a community organization involved in registering voters over 80,000 new Nevada voters has raised suspicions that political pressure motivated the action.

The raid to uncover alleged registration fraud was the result of a joint investigation by state agencies, the U.S. Attorney's Office, and the Federal Bureau of Investigation. A similar task force, convened in New Mexico in 2004 to investigate "vote fraud" complaints lodged by high-ranking Republicans, found no evidence of illegality. According to an independent government report issued last week, the U.S. Attorney for New Mexico, David Iglesias, was later wrongfully fired by the Bush Administration for failing to prosecute the case despite the lack of evidence.

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The AP?

LAS VEGAS (AP) — Nevada authorities seized records Tuesday from a group they accused of submitting fraudulent voter-registration forms — including for the starting lineup of the Dallas Cowboys.

"Tony Romo is not registered to vote in the state of Nevada, and anybody trying to pose as Terrell Owens won't be able to cast a ballot on Nov. 4," said Secretary of State Ross Miller, referring to star players on the pro football team.

State authorities raided the headquarters of the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, a group that works to register low-income people.

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How about CNN?

(CNN) – Nevada state officials served a search warrant on the Las Vegas office of the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now Tuesday.

The search was “the result of an ongoing investigation into allegations of voter registration fraud,” according to the Nevada Secretary of State’s office.

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Now then, which one of these stories shows evidence of a slant? Most of these stories I used the leads--where bias is usually established. You decide.

mscelina said:

Now then, which one of these stories shows evidence of a slant? Most of these stories I used the leads--where bias is usually established. You decide.

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There really isn't much of one. They all are saying pretty much the same thing; ACORN got raided by the feds; ACORN officials are saying that they have been doing their best to comply with voter registration laws and defending their position, while authorities defend theirs. Still, not much to see there. I don't think that there is really much to be had here until the investigations are complete, even though I find the RNC's whining about them to be suspect.

There really isn't much of one? Are you serious?

The involvement of the U.S. Attorney's Office in a raid on the Las Vegas offices of a community organization involved in registering voters over 80,000 new Nevada voters has raised suspicions that political pressure motivated the action.


The raid to uncover alleged registration fraud was the result of a joint investigation by state agencies, the U.S. Attorney's Office, and the Federal Bureau of Investigation. A similar task force, convened in New Mexico in 2004 to investigate "vote fraud" complaints lodged by high-ranking Republicans, found no evidence of illegality. According to an independent government report issued last week, the U.S. Attorney for New Mexico, David Iglesias, was later wrongfully fired by the Bush Administration for failing to prosecute the case despite the lack of evidence.

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I am flabbergasted. So the task force was formed to investigate "vote fraud" and the raid may be connected to the US attorney firings scandal. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. You can't see any evidence of slant in just these two paragraphs? Hell, even just the lead?

Analyze. Criticize. Then take the source for what it's worth.

mscelina said:

There really isn't much of one? Are you serious?

I am flabbergasted. So the task force was formed to investigate "vote fraud" and the raid may be connected to the US attorney firings scandal. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

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I wasn't suggesting that. I was suggesting that perhaps these claims of vote fraud are widely exaggerated, and chances are, they may not be true in this case. Consider what the ACORN folks are saying. They're saying that they do work to weed out the 'bad registrations', but that they can't always get them all. It is a possibility that's what happened.

InfinityGoddess said:

I wasn't suggesting that. I was suggesting that perhaps these claims of vote fraud are widely exaggerated, and chances are, they may not be true in this case. Consider what the ACORN folks are saying. They're saying that they do work to weed out the 'bad registrations', but that they can't always get them all. It is a possibility that's what happened.

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Celina didn't say you said that. She was pointing out what the articles were saying/implying, and wondering if anyone can see the slant (if any) of the articles.

Hmmm. You know what? That gives me an idea. Hey, Cel, c'mere for a minute...

Cranky said:

Celina didn't say you said that. She was pointing out what the articles were saying/implying, and wondering if anyone can see the slant (if any) of the articles.

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And I said that I didn't see any.

Cranky said:

Hmmm. You know what? That gives me an idea. Hey, Cel, c'mere for a minute...

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*wags finger*

don't make me come down there...

IG--you can't see any slant in the Huffington article at all?

"Vote fraud" in quotation marks--the implication that the claims are false.

The link to the firing of US Attorney David Iglesias--hinted at in the lead and directly referred to in the second paragraph? That's a clear indication of bias--it's not even subtle.

mscelina said:

IG--you can't see any slant in the Huffington article at all?

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Nope. Not at all.

"Vote fraud" in quotation marks--the implication that the claims are false.

The link to the firing of US Attorney David Iglesias--hinted at in the lead and directly referred to in the second paragraph? That's a clear indication of bias--it's not even subtle.

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That's not bias. The firing of the US Attorneys and the reasoning behind them have been very dubious. These were top-notch people that were fired, not bozos who were "too lazy" (as was the excuse for Iglesias' case - he was fired while serving in the military) to do their jobs.

InfinityGoddess said:

Nope. Not at all.



That's not bias. The firing of the US Attorneys and the reasoning behind them have been very dubious. These were top-notch people that were fired, not bozos who were "too lazy" (as was the excuse for Iglesias' case - he was fired while serving in the military) to do their jobs.

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That's not what Celina's getting at, IG. *Cel, correct me if I'm wrong*

What's she's talking about is the link being made between the firings and the "voter fraud". Putting the two together, along with other interesting word choices, indicate bias on the part of the author.

The other articles use much less loaded language. Closer to straight reportage of the facts.

Cranky said:

That's not what Celina's getting at, IG. *Cel, correct me if I'm wrong*

What's she's talking about is the link being made between the firings and the "voter fraud". Putting the two together, along with other interesting word choices, indicate bias on the part of the author.

The other articles use much less loaded language. Closer to straight reportage of the facts.

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Correct, Cranky. I'm not discussing whatever the facts are. I'm discussing the use of language to indicate a particular lean that the writer wishes to inspire in the reader.

You don't have to have a best-seller to recognize the techniques of fiction in journalism. The reader is being directed to overlook the immediacy of the ACORN raid in favor of looking at how this is all a big retaliation for the fake 'vote fraud' allegations in the past.

Cranky said:

What's she's talking about is the link being made between the firings and the "voter fraud". Putting the two together, along with other interesting word choices, indicate bias on the part of the author.

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mscelina said:

You don't have to have a best-seller to recognize the techniques of fiction in journalism. The reader is being directed to overlook the immediacy of the ACORN raid in favor of looking at how this is all a big retaliation for the fake 'vote fraud' allegations in the past.

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The reason why that is, is because voter fraud has indeed been widely exaggerated and used as an excuse to suppress voters. That's not bias.

We aren't talking about that,IG. We're talking about the slant in the article.

mscelina said:

We aren't talking about that,IG. We're talking about the slant in the article.

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And I'm saying there is none. The author is calling it like it is.

InfinityGoddess said:

And I'm saying there is none. The author is calling it like it is.

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But that's your opinion. Simply because your opinion matches with what the article states doesn't eliminate bias from the article.

Then the vagaries of critical analysis in the media are wasted on you. It will help me to consider how I deal with your posts in the future.

You have an excellent mind for politics, IG. No one could deny that. But without the critical analysis to accompany it, that great mind is shackled. The test I just gave you is one that I took on my first day of Journalism 101--different articles, obviously. The professor looked at the half of the class that failed the quiz and said, "You do not have the capacity to analyze objectively. This will be a serious handicap if you've chosen journalism as a career."

Most of them dropped the class the next week.

Ring around the roses. . .

Nothing more to add, IG?

I think of myself, at least partly, as a leftist (economically socialist, socially libertarian). I have no ideological common ground with the American Republican party. I don't necessarily agree with everything liberal, but I could never vote for conservatives (with whom I agree with nearly nothing). Here in Canada, I vote NDP.

I wanted to state that as context for my saying that ACORN seems to be a deeply corrupt organization. Check out the long PDF file at this link:

http://www.rottenacorn.com

Actually read through it; look at the sheer volume of accusations made, the number of different sources quoted and so forth. Yes, no doubt, it's written by folks leaning right, but that's not a good enough reason to dismiss it. If you have a socialist bent, look specifically at their "do as we say, not as we do" practice on minimum wage, and their attitude to their employees attempting to unionize. There are enough specific facts about their behaviour given here that I'm willing to condemn the organization outright unless someone has detailed refutations of most of the things that site lists, with equal sourcing.

It does bother me how much many leftists are willing to overlook ruthless and ethically suspect behaviour from certain specific sources -- most prominently, in this case, grass roots minority activists. There's actually an activist group called "By Any Means Necessary" (look up BAMN on Wikipedia) deticated to protecting affirmative action. Doesn't it say something about left-leaning culture that a group can take a phrase that denotes ruthless utilitarianism as a badge of pride and get away with it?

We should criticize ACORN. We should not tolerate the things they do. We should not excuse their actions, any more than conservatives should fail to condemn Limbaugh and their ilk. Saying "no enemy to the left" is by definition excusing Stalin and his ilk. That phrase should NEVER have become a rallying cry.

Tangentally, I don't for a second think ACORN is responsible for the financial crisis; I blame big business and lack of financial transparency. But that doesn't excuse ACORN; they just aren't big enough to do the damage attributed to them.

mscelina said:

You have an excellent mind for politics, IG. No one could deny that. But without the critical analysis to accompany it, that great mind is shackled. The test I just gave you is one that I took on my first day of Journalism 101--different articles, obviously. The professor looked at the half of the class that failed the quiz and said, "You do not have the capacity to analyze objectively. This will be a serious handicap if you've chosen journalism as a career."

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The author was being objective. The fact that voter fraud is actually exaggerated is that, a fact. I do not see it as bias when the media sees it for what it really is; a tactic used to suppress the vote. The reason? Because the corporate media likes to do the tap-dance when it comes to things like this. They don't want to acknowledge the underlying story of voter suppression at all, and the indie media has picked up where the corporate media has failed. This is why the business of "bias" is absolute nonsense in my view because the corporate media is being cowed into not telling the whole story by right-wing outfits like The National Review and others. They all want to be FOX News-Lite.