3D printed gun

Plot Device said:

....But now this 3-D gun thing has got me thinking ... print all the fucking guns you want, 'cuz if you ain't got bullets they're just expensive movie props.

Hmmmmm ........... I must go blog about this.

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Might want to blog about all the folks who make their own ammo, too, while you're at it.

mirandashell said:

How difficult would it be to print bullets?

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I would think it would be very difficult. You could print the projectile, but you'd still need gun powder and a primer.

As difficult to make your own bullets now?

With the right equipment, all things are possible. The question here is, 'Will the equipment I have already handle it and if not, what would I have to do to adjust it so it could?'.

Bullets from that thing probably would come from inferior types of materials and not be that strong. Any type of cover or body armor would stop them. I would imagine that good bullets, those that don't completely veer to the side, probably does take some expertise and craftsmanship to make.

JoNightshade said:

I've been saying this IRL for about a year now every time someone starts a conversation about gun control. Legislation: irrelevant. We need to focus on what we're going to do now that it's impossible to legislate gun control. (Not that I ever thought it was feasible to begin with, but...)

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Like any restriction, the idea isn't that whatever is being banned suddenly goes poof. The idea is to create a legal means by which something can be done. Sure, nothing can stop someone who wants to print a 30 round magazine. But if they're found with it, it gets confiscated. Simples. It's not *the* solution, because there is no one thing. There needs to be a comprehensive plan at reducing violence.

The frustrating thing has been that everyone just flat-out ignores me. Like they can't even wrap their minds around the world that's coming.

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Everyone ignores everyone else's opinion on gun control. It's kinda the way it goes.

mirandashell said:

How difficult would it be to print bullets?

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Can you print metal??

And can you start to restrict and/or track the sale of (certain) metals?

mirandashell said:

How difficult would it be to print bullets?

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You might be able to print a soft projectile, but not the powder or cordite that fills the butt of the bullet itself. You have to have a propellant to react to the hammer striking the back of the casing. If you have the casings, it's not difficult to fill them, but you still have to have the propellant.

It's not just the ease of access that's a concern here. The laws changed for gun manufacturers fairly recently - every handgun has to have the serial number for the specific weapon imprinted on the hammer in raised script. This way, all bullets fired from that gun will be traceable to it (until someone steals two and switches the hammers, but...)

A weapon you can print and toss or print and shatter is untraceable, in theory. There's no seller, no manufacturer, no way to know what alterations have been made to a given model. Movies have used the conceit of guns disguised to look like toys and other non-ballistic items, but if you get a savvy design tech, you could make an operational gun look like anything.

kuwisdelu said:

Can't you just tell the CAD program you want it plastic instead of metal when you print it? It wouldn't comply with the law, but I don't see anything stopping people from changing the files after they download it and before they print it?

?

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I'm not sure that a plastic firing pin would work with most ammo.

benbradley said:

A few months I overheard talk about a video on youtube demonstrating one (I haven't looked for it), they were saying it only lasts for a dozen shots or so. But that's a dozen more than not having a gun.

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They'll just be truly disposable handguns. Don't reload, just pull out another one.

Shadow Dragon said:

Bullets from that thing probably would come from inferior types of materials and not be that strong. Any type of cover or body armor would stop them. I would imagine that good bullets, those that don't completely veer to the side, probably does take some expertise and craftsmanship to make.

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Many years ago as an experiment I loaded my musket with a variety of projectiles and vitamin gel caps can go through 1/8 inch steel made for switch boxes. Besides lead is easy to come by in any place that fixes flat tires and you can make a bullet mold with a drill press and a piece of hardwood

Plot Device said:

Can you print metal??

And can you start to restrict and/or track the sale of (certain) metals?

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You can't print metal with the current devices. They work by essentially melting a plastic filament and laying down material additively.

It's not the bullet casings you have to worry so much over (people will simply recycle what they have or machine new metal) as tracking gunpowder/explosive. Not feasible, IMHO.

vsrenard said:

You can't print metal with the current devices. They work by essentially melting a plastic filament and laying down material additively.

It's not the bullet casings you have to worry so much over (people will simply recycle what they have or machine new metal) as tracking gunpowder/explosive. Not feasible, IMHO.

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I believe that technologies for metal 3D printing exist, but are still in their infancy. I question the structural integrity of any metal object made in this manner, though, and can't see a 3D-printed bullet casing doing anything other than exploding in the barrel.

3D printing is a side issue. It is still easier to make almost anything by traditional means.

Primers, casings, powder, and projectiles are cake easy to make, I can knock out 40 or fifty rounds in a day. Given a week, I can fill almost any rational demand.

The gun control controversy has saved the firearms industry, making guns is the same as printing money right now.

Almost to the point that I am considering getting a production license so I can sell what I make. Right now I can make whatever I want (outside of full auto arms) and give them away, in Utah or Wyoming I can even sell them, if they are made in state.

Not one scrap of the technology is hard, or hidden, if you can tie your shoes you can produce a usable firearm.

Education is the answer, but effective education is hard, it is much easier to pass yet another redundant law (without funding), and say "I did something".

Regards,
Kevin

Kevans said:

Education is the answer, but effective education is hard, it is much easier to pass yet another redundant law (without funding), and say "I did something".

Regards,
Kevin

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Education alone won't solve the problem. The culture also has to change. The identity politics attached to firearms has to change.

Plot Device said:

Can you print metal??

And can you start to restrict and/or track the sale of (certain) metals?

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You don't have to print metal. Bullets (the projectile part) are made of lead, which has a relatively low melting point. You can buy lead shot just about anywhere. You can pick up lead wheel weights off the side of any well-traveled road and get lead for free. Heat 'em up over a fire (DON'T breath the lead fumes! Use a fan and stand upwind) and pour them into molds (you can make the molds yourself too) to make bullets.

This won't work well with the scenario I describe below with flying commercial with a 3d printer in checked baggage, but these things can be done.

Cyia said:

You might be able to print a soft projectile, but not the powder or cordite that fills the butt of the bullet itself.

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I learned how to make gunpowder at age 10 from the original broadcast of the Star Trek episode "Arena."

Well, maybe not quite, but gunpowder is rather easy to make. It was discussed in the high school science class I took a few years later.

Kevans said:

3D printing is a side issue. It is still easier to make almost anything by traditional means.

Primers, casings, powder, and projectiles are cake easy to make, I can knock out 40 or fifty rounds in a day. Given a week, I can fill almost any rational demand.

The gun control controversy has saved the firearms industry, making guns is the same as printing money right now.

Almost to the point that I am considering getting a production license so I can sell what I make. Right now I can make whatever I want (outside of full auto arms) and give them away, in Utah or Wyoming I can even sell them, if they are made in state.

Not one scrap of the technology is hard, or hidden, if you can tie your shoes you can produce a usable firearm.

Education is the answer, but effective education is hard, it is much easier to pass yet another redundant law (without funding), and say "I did something".

Regards,
Kevin

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One point of a 3d printer is it's a lot lighter than a lathe or milling machine. It's light enough to put in checked baggage (the only problem is it's a so-far uncommon piece of electronics, they'll double-check it in the security scan), fly with it to England or wherever else where guns are "highly" illegal, and print guns in your hotel room.

Xelebes said:

Education alone won't solve the problem. The culture also has to change. The identity politics attached to firearms has to change.

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I read a book about doing that sort of thing (SPOILER - select text to read the last line of the book):
He loved Big Brother.

benbradley said:

I read a book about doing that sort of thing

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Ehh, depends if the culture wants to change.

Cultures always change. If Americans want to stop being so violent and stop fetishizing our guns so much, it's well within our power to change.

But we don't want to.

Meh.

What is the heat resistance of these plastic guns?
Can they catch fire? Will it mean holding a very hot melting piece of plastic in your hand if you fire it? Is it flammable, or does it just sort of... melt like wax?
How strong is the barrel?
How brittle is it? You often have to make a tradeoff between hardness and tensile strength. Hard means brittle. Strong means softish. Metallurgy is often about finding a good balance between hardness (brittleness) and tensile strength.

Interesting take on the implications here:
http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2013/05/_3_d_printed_gun_yes_it_will_be_possible_to_make_weapons_with_3_d_printers.2.html

Though he goes off the rails a bit in the middle, the writer postulates the idea that 3D printed guns could do to the NRA/Gun industry what Napster did for the RIAA. (God, I wish, but...). It's a decent take on the 1st/2nd collision that's been brought up here a bit, and also addresses the idea of whether it renders gun control moot. Worth a read IMO.

Got to admit, I'd laugh to see the NRA one day in congress pushing for a ban of 3D printed guns that use the design of manufactured guns. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised to see them pushing for a ban on 3D printers because of that or at least going after people that download files for designs.

Don said:

I'd call this an unintended consequence of gun control, or perhaps the threat of even more restrictive gun control.

Besides, we've all heard the old saying; Information wants to be free.

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What gun control? Do you live in the US? There's no gun control in the US.

Maxinquaye said:

What is the heat resistance of these plastic guns?

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Probably very low. Don't try to shoot ten rounds at one round a second.

Can they catch fire?

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Maybe, if you do what I just said don't do...
[quote[Will it mean holding a very hot melting piece of plastic in your hand if you fire it? Is it flammable, or does it just sort of... melt like wax?[/quote]
Maybe.

How strong is the barrel?
How brittle is it? You often have to make a tradeoff between hardness and tensile strength. Hard means brittle. Strong means softish. Metallurgy is often about finding a good balance between hardness (brittleness) and tensile strength.

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These are all tradeoffs to make guns that fire many thousands of rounds at a pretty decent pace and operate reliably.

There's two plastics normally used in 3d printers, ABS and PLA. ABS melts at a slightly higher temperature. It's what Lego blocks are made of, so that should give you an idea of its strength.

A plastic gun is like the proverbial dancing bear. How well it works isn't the amazing part, it's that it can work at all.

Bartholomew said:

What gun control? Do you live in the US? There's no gun control in the US.

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There's sure been a lot of hot air.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=96799346

Gun stores across the country are reporting big increases in sales since Tuesday's election of Barack Obama to the White House. Some gun enthusiasts are worried that the president-elect and the Democratic Congress will move for tougher new gun laws that restrict some weapons.
...

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Bartholomew said:

What gun control? Do you live in the US? There's no gun control in the US.

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Srsly? Start with the Gun Control Act of 1968, then check out the National Firearms Act of 1934, then we can start on the various state, county, and even city gun control ordinances.

Or you could just jump right into the Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide, courtesy of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

Swordswoman said:

Surprised no-one's posted this yet - that the US State Department has ordered the take-down of the blueprints.

The red banner at the top of the DEFCAD site now reads: Interesting implications for information on the net, I think.

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Dammit. I wonder how they'll try to justify it, or if they'll try at all?

At least the fightback has been going on for the last 24 hours, and Pirate Bay is downloading more and more copies by the minute.

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Woohoo!