Craft

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These aren't even young poets. These are college students. I'm a young poet, and I have never written a depressing she dumped me poem. Keats was 26 when he died, remember that.

Some say he was as young as 24. His gravemarker says it all. He was so confident he'd died so young that he'd made no mark on the world, he wrote his own epitath: Here lies a man whose name was writ in water.
I think of that often. Even in death, the metaphor of his own concept of his life is beautifully poetic.
 

Appalachian Writer

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I find it rather ironic, it being that most major poets started off writing when they were young. Prufrock hit the markets when Eliot was 24 I believe. It is not that the poets are young, it is that they are bad. They all just happen to be sending their mediocre work to the same spot. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of older poets who are just as bad, but instead of writing about how much their life sucks, write about a bunch of sentimental rubbish.

Bad poets, I agree, come in all ages. As a matter of fact, bad writers come in all ages. The exceptions, like Eliot (I love the line "I have heard the coachman snicker) and Keats and many others, are not exceptions, not in the real sense. They're talented people. That sad thing about the group I had the misfortune to judge is that they carry their drivel with them to Poetry Slams, claiming the title "poet." OUCH! and OUCH for all of us who want to grow in the craft.
 

Appalachian Writer

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Improving my craft is a big reason I post poems here for crit. (The other reason is the feeling of community -- here, writing poetry isn't seen as weird.) So this question on what we think of as craft got me thinking -- what exactly am I trying to learn?

To say more with less words. This isn't a goal for all poets, but it is with me. People here have noticed this obsession and been wonderfully helpful in pruning verbiage.
To make words sing. This is meter and rhythm and all those wonderful things which lead me to sit and mutter words, trying to hear where the accent lies. I'm very bad at this and am still looking for a "Accents for Dummies" book, a cheat sheet would be nice :)
To remember that poetry is communication. I'm including this in craft only because it's a choice I've come to make in my style and choice of subjects. Sometimes poetry is primarily for the originating poet; there is something that just has to be expressed -- but it is not to be shared. I'm trying clumsily to say that I feel uncomfortable reading poems which have little meaning beyond the poet, and I'm trying to correct this in my own work..

"To make words sing"...what a lovely thought. As for saying more with fewer words, I'm reminded of Hemingway and his "Iceberg" theory on writing, believing that like an iceberg 80 percent of the story should be unwritten. When challenged to write a short story with only six words, he submitted this: For sale. Baby shoes. Never worn. Think about that! In many ways, that is poetry, the subtle, groaning use of words to tell a story, make a point, or take notice of simple things.
 

Dichroic

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"nuns fret not at their convent's room..."

One argument I haven't seen in this discussion is that sometimes the structure of poetry is paradoxically freeing. Humans often don't do well with an entirely blank slate, and if you have to chose one of all the words in the world to fit a slot in your poem, the choice may be so large that you are drowned in words. (Three metaphors in one sentence... Eep! Apparently some of us need structure more than others.) If you are constrained by rhyme or meter, it may be easier to find the perfect word. Structure also gives you another degree of freedom: you can do things like using a rigid meter to enforce a martial idea, or contrast a playful rhyme scheme with a grim message to make people wonder if there's another point you're making.

As for young poets and perspective, I don't think the issues of youth are unimportant - in fact they're likely to be the most important of all. ("Why am I here?" "Why are *you* here?" "As long as we're both here, can we have sex?") One perspective that's missing is on how universal some of those themes are. What gets old really fast is endless poems how my girlfriend left me and my dog just died and no one understands me, no one has ever felt pain like this before. Better is when you get young poets writing about an idea that really is unique ("Beauty is truth and truth, beauty, that is all/Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know") or else recognizing when an experience is universal (one thing the ubiquitous Baby Boomers *did* manage - I'd argue Cat Steven's "Father and Son" is a good example). Actually, that's probably not specific to young poets.

Dichroic
 
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William Haskins

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great post, dichroic.

and bonus points for the "father and son" reference, which is one of my all time favorite songs, precisely for the reasons you point out.

for anyone not familiar with it, i urge you to treat yourself:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=iAXP_7-3kuo


Father:
It's not time to make a change,
Just relax, take it easy.
You're still young, that's your fault,
There's so much you have to know.
Find a girl, settle down,
If you want you can marry.

Look at me, I am old, but I'm happy.

I was once like you are now, and I know that it's not easy,
To be calm when you've found something going on.
But take your time, think a lot,
Why, think of everything you've got.
For you will still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not.

Son:
How can I try to explain, when I do he turns away again.
It's always been the same, same old story.
From the moment I could talk I was ordered to listen.
Now there's a way and I know that I have to go away.
I know I have to go.

Father:
It's not time to make a change,
Just sit down, take it slowly.
You're still young, that's your fault,
There's so much you have to go through.
Find a girl, settle down,
if you want you can marry.
Look at me, I am old, but I'm happy.

Son:
All the times that I cried, keeping all the things I knew inside,
It's hard, but it's harder to ignore it.
If they were right, I'd agree, but it's them you know not me.
Now there's a way and I know that I have to go away.
I know I have to go.

 

Dichroic

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freedom is hell. Think someone said that sometime, or should have, if not.

And conversely, "the prison, unto which we doom Ourselves, no prison is:" whether that's sonnet form or villanelle or something you've just invented.

(No idea why I'm spouting Wordsworth today. But speaking of poets who were also capable of absolute crap as they got older....)
 

Appalachian Writer

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One argument I haven't seen in this discussion is that sometimes the structure of poetry is paradoxically freeing. Humans often don't do well with an entirely blank slate, and if you have to chose one of all the words in the world to fit a slot in your poem, the choice may be so large that you are drowned in words. (Three metaphors in one sentence... Eep! Apparently some of us need structure more than others.) If you are constrained by rhyme or meter, it may be easier to find the perfect word. Structure also gives you another degree of freedom: you can do things like using a rigid meter to enforce a martial idea, or contrast a playful rhyme scheme with a grim message to make people wonder if there's another point you're making.

As for young poets and perspective, I don't think the issues of youth are unimportant - in fact they're likely to be the most important of all. ("Why am I here?" "Why are *you* here?" "As long as we're both here, can we have sex?") One perspective that's missing is on how universal some of those themes are. What gets old really fast is endless poems how my girlfriend left me and my dog just died and no one understands me, no one has ever felt pain like this before. Better is when you get young poets writing about an idea that really is unique ("Beauty is truth and truth, beauty, that is all/Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know") or else recognizing when an experience is universal (one thing the ubiquitous Baby Boomers *did* manage - I'd argue Cat Steven's "Father and Son" is a good example). Actually, that's probably not specific to young poets.

Dichroic

Thought provoking. However, Cat Stevens (where is he anyway?) aside, the idea that a reader would find the angst of love unrequited interesting goes to the idea that the young are self-absorbed, at least, some. There may be those who can look beyond the mirror. I've known a few, but they're getting harder and harder to come by. I've met ambitious, hard working young people, driven to succeed, driven to improve their understanding of poetry and I've found those who are less than serious at best, and one young man who wrote romantice drivel that he spouted at jams because, according to him, it made the women hot.
 

LimeyDawg

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Cat Stevens is singing songs on the other side of the pearly gates.
 

LimeyDawg

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crap. I thought he died...I guess I need to get my Google on...
 

Dichroic

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Thought provoking. However, Cat Stevens (where is he anyway?) aside, the idea that a reader would find the angst of love unrequited interesting goes to the idea that the young are self-absorbed, at least, some.


I think we *do* find the angst thing interesting, if it's well enough expressed, because we've all been through it. (Why else do people read each other's blogs?) I can probably sit around picking out famous and excellent examples (poems, not blogs!) until all those young poets die of old age, but just for a few,

"My heart, being hungry, feeds on food / the fat of heart despise"
and
"Yet she / will be / False, ere I come, to two or three"

And so on.
 

Norman D Gutter

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Why else do people read each other's blogs?
You read blogs for angst? The only blogs I read are writers', agents', and editors' blogs (well, plus one political blog), and find very little angst on them.

NDG
 

Dichroic

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You read blogs for angst?
NDG

Actually, I don't; I read them for wndows into other people's worlds, and if they're well written I find them endlessly fascinating. Some of the writing ones are faascinating too, particularly the large number of articulate F/SF writers on LJ who are serious about their craft. (They're ruined me for a lot of more "literary" writers.)

However, if you look at personal blogs in general (not political or professional ones) the ones that garner the greatest readership do tend to be the angsty ones and the trainwrecks.
 

Ken

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I read blogs to stay in touch with the average joe and jane.
To fill up on angst I turn to film noir flicks from the forties.
 
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