Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

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blacbird

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*I still don't fully understand 2nd person POV. I'd like to learn one day.*

But here's a line from Patricia Cornwell Trace:

"How you folks today?" the pimply-faced young man in a uniform asks as he rolls in the cart.

Now, the "real-time" way this book is written in made it impossible for me to read. I don't know why, but it gave me a headache. It would be fine if it were just parts of it, but the whole damn book, even the narrative sequences, are in present format.

So what are the advantages to writing in this mode?

The line quoted has nothing to do with 2nd-person POV. It's in third. You're making an observation about present-tense, which is a separate and unrelated annoyance to some readers.

caw
 

Neversage

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I have to agree with Sarber on second person. I find it distracting. It's a shame too, because there's a couple of book I would like to finish, but just can't because I spend too much time being annoyed at second person.

The odd twist: all of my outlining and scene summaries are written in second person, which I later convert to third, or first.
 

Blue Sky

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Excuse the Interruption

Thank you everyone for co-creating this thread! Finally read it all with trips to many links along the way. Awesome.

Jim, a question for you. Would it help you and Doyle if we ordered your books through brick and mortar bookstores? Then your sales would register on their scope. I found Land of Mist and Snow at a local used bookstore, but I’d be willing to wait for others if it would help. Nobody asked this. The thread viewing figure shows that we could make a significant difference.

In the Unites States, we vote with our dollars. If we enjoy somebody’s services, let’s vote visibly! They have to eat too.

Or…you do eat, right UJ? We know that you don’t sleep much. J

Some thoughts after reading thousands of entries:

1. I type what comes as images, feelings, sounds and any other mode, but it struck me that I could find out what happens a lot faster with plotting. Hmm. Never was tempted to plot before. Exciting!

2. I missed the foreign language discussion by a few days! The army trained me as a Russian Linguist when I was nineteen. I’ve loved all languages since that time. I had to learn Russian grammar. This was a stretch, since I goofed around in high school English. For years I first referred to Russian for grammar questions in English. I laughed at the comments about this. Yes!

The ability to speak colloquially is an advanced ability and the ability to tell jokes and use humor in a native fashion is quite advanced. Think about it. How many native English speakers have this ability? Takes a lot of practice and EIA--ears in action.

I also speak Spanish proficiently and some German, Korean and Chinese. I’ve always wanted to be fluent in what I call the big four: English, Spanish, Russian and Chinese Mandarin. Took a semester in Mandarin when I left the army, but other priorities came along (programming languages). How sublime to practice writing characters in the evening with fountain pen, crickets chirping. I’d say it’s on temporary hold. Chinese speech is not so difficult. It’s the written language that’s challenging.

I felt like a seasoned world traveler, capable of handling whatever came linguistically until I went to China. If you don’t know the character, you don’t even know the sound. No alphabet!

3. Regarding Russian Novels, that’s how they use names. A Russian who didn’t use names colloquially would probably be seen as an ignoramus by many native Russians. References for clarification should be easy to find on the Internet. Doesn’t make it much easier to read--for me either--but may help ease reader resistance.

That’s it for now. Thanks again. Time to bic until I get to The End.

Phil
 

smsarber

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The line quoted has nothing to do with 2nd-person POV. It's in third. You're making an observation about present-tense, which is a separate and unrelated annoyance to some readers.

caw
I never said it had anything to do with second person- that's why the opening line about second person was framed with asterisks. And I said the reason it annoyed me had to do with the present tense. I said I didn't know why it gave me a headache (every time I tried to read that book). Just wanted to clear that up;)
 
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MiltonPope

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One of John D. MacDonald's early books was written in the wrong person. Every time I picked it up to continue reading, I was surprised that it was in the third person. Every time.

As to present tense, it's always annoying, even when the book is "Presumed Innocent". Good story, but that didn't help. I'll never understand why anyone would think present-tense presentation is helpful.
 

maestrowork

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As to present tense, it's always annoying, even when the book is "Presumed Innocent". Good story, but that didn't help. I'll never understand why anyone would think present-tense presentation is helpful.

It's annoying to you. Millions of others like it. The books sell like hotcakes. End of story.
 

smsarber

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It's annoying to you. Millions of others like it. The books sell like hotcakes. End of story.

But does popularity by the masses necessarily make any book good? I think not. And you should know better, Maestro. Millions have read John Saul over the last thirty-two years, I just read Black Creek Crossing for the second time, and found it to be cheesier than I remembered. And at the end twice, with two characters he talked about their throats slashed and blood squirting from their aortas. I'm no doctor, but your aorta is in your heart; the carotid artery and jugular veins are in your neck. But millions still read. There is no end of story here- only each of our own personal opinions.
 
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Perle_Rare

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I understood Maestro's comments to mean that Milton Pope is entitled to his own opinion regarding the use of present tense. However, for him to conclude that "it's always annoying", which becomes a general statement encompassing all works in present tense and all readers, is objectionable.
 

KaysenParkerPlath

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Is second person when it's happening to you?

If so, I write my short stories in second person.

"You get up and walk over to the living room. You press your open eye against the peep-hole and see a dark figure. A dark figure with shiny black shoes."
 

smsarber

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I understood Maestro's comments to mean that Milton Pope is entitled to his own opinion regarding the use of present tense. However, for him to conclude that "it's always annoying", which becomes a general statement encompassing all works in present tense and all readers, is objectionable.
I took that same statement to mean it was always annoying to him. But let's remember, all of this is subjective- Danielle Steele has sold probably thousands of millions of books, but to me any of them would "suck." Regardless of POV or tense. That's my point.

If you write the style you enjoy, you can go through life with a clear conscience. Nothing personal with romance novels, but they aren't for me. I've never, however, tried to write one. If I did, I might find I have a gift for it and sell millions of books. But, myself, I would feel that I cheated. We all have our preferences, both in reading and writing. I don't care for present tense, it tends to make my brain bleed. So I probably won't write very much in that style. But who knows, sometimes you have to step out of your comfort zone.

I meant no disrespect to Maestro, I just felt that as a Mod, the "end of story" line was a bit magnanimous. Re-reading it, I see that it was probably curt, but with no malice attached.:flag:
 

euclid

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My WIP1 is written in third person past tense. The POV is the MC's (mostly). But I have a few flashbacks to an earlier time and a totally different locale, which I have written in the present tense. I think this works really well. Maybe I will post some of this on SYW to get some reactions.

Maybe not.

Notice that I have now posted over 800 posts! Maestrowork beware! I'm catching up!
 
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maestrowork

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I took that same statement to mean it was always annoying to him. But let's remember, all of this is subjective- Danielle Steele has sold probably thousands of millions of books, but to me any of them would "suck." Regardless of POV or tense. That's my point.

You read it wrong. I was defending present tense.


I meant no disrespect to Maestro, I just felt that as a Mod, the "end of story" line was a bit magnanimous. Re-reading it, I see that it was probably curt, but with no malice attached.:flag:

I'm not a mod.

It was sarcasm. ;)
 

smsarber

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You read it wrong. I was defending present tense.




I'm not a mod.

It was sarcasm. ;)

I meant I read Milton's statement as to mean present tense was annoying to him always and forever.

I could've sworn I had seen you listed as a mod, my brain's absent for the week... too much present tense reading;)
 

IceCreamEmpress

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I meant I read Milton's statement as to mean present tense was annoying to him always and forever.

And that's fine. Not everyone likes everything.

But some really great writers have written exclusively in present tense. Damon Runyon is the most famous of these, of course.
 

smsarber

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A good one for 2nd person: the children's books where you were in control of the adventure. Everything was happening to you, and you chose different paths to follow, sometimes to your own demise. Choose Your Own Adventure, I believe they were called.
 

LeeFlower

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Smsarber, my recollection of Choose Your Own Adventures is that they tended to be, um, not very good. Haven't read one in thirteen years though, so maybe I'm remembering wrong.

One circumstance where I've seen second person work well is when it's clear that "you" is not actually the reader, but a distinct character the narrator is addressing. An example being John Scalzi's THE SAGAN DIARY, in which the narrator is speaking addressing her husband for most of the story. I'm not sure that cases like that really count as second-person, though, as they feel more like either first (the narrator) or third-person detached (as with epistolary novels, in which readers might see letters that address the intended recipient in the second person, but we're not actually inside the head of the person who wrote the letter--we're observing externally). UJ, am I on crack about those being second person?
 

Calliopenjo

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I think I missed those books. Off topic, I write third person for the most part. I'm just starting to write first person. I can do it in short spurts but after a while the She, He, They, creep in. Exercises that my writing group does every week give me a chance to practice first person. Do I notice a difference? Yeah, it's more there.
 
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