Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

eqb said:

The trick is finding that balance point between "well polished" and "pining for the fjords."

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Classic. Thanks.

blacbird said:

How could you tell?

caw

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Because I saw them quoted saying it.

Do you think a bicycle maker thinks of their product as something more than a production piece for sale? They like the product they produce, or they wouldn't produce it.

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I also write computer software. I'm still proud of things I wrote fifteen and twenty years ago. I consider my work to be much more than just production pieces for sale. If I see a writer saying stuff like

That's the way I see it. Some writers get uber attached to the product of their labor.
I can only laugh when I see someone say. "It's my baby."

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then I see a grim, Gradgrindian salesman who not only apparently has no pride in their work, but laughs at those who do. That's not only contempt for other writers who believe in the value of literature, but contempt for the readers who believe likewise.

I judge the chances of this writer producing something worthwhile as pretty low. Hence I wouldn't buy their work.

Does that mean you buy lots and lots of books from vanity publishers?

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No.

Because at some point, the author needs to think of their work this way in order to meet deadlines, do the edits and copyedits and promote their work through signings, websites, social networking and so on. You can do it for the love of your work, but if you don't work with the publisher on a professional basis, your career will dissolve pretty quickly.

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I've read hundreds of interviews of professional writers over the years, and I've never seen one talk about their work in such a cynical manner. If they genuinely don't care about their work once it gets published, they have the common sense not to say it in public.

Priene, you clearly have a great deal of emotion invested in your reading/writing. You have the heart of a great artist. I wish you every success in your writing endeavors.

Priene said:

... then I see a grim, Gradgrindian salesman who not only apparently has no pride in their work, but laughs at those who do.

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lol. You really can't judge a writer's intent by the words on the page. Sure, if someone said "I wrote that piece because my kid needed to go to the dentist" you'd be clued in, but otherwise, it'd be impossible to tell.

Some wonderful stories have been written because the rent was due. Don't get too worked up about it.

Priene, Your perceptions of what you read here are you own, and doen't necessasarily make them correct.

As I mentioned, I enjoy my writing and take pride in what I write and have fun doing it. I guess you missed that in my post.

I do know this. Publishing is a business, and to the publisher, your writing is a product they make money from.

I understand your passion. I also know that getting over-invested in your work, emotionally, can get you hurt. It happened to me.

My comments are born of this experience, and I've gained a perspective from this site, AW, that made me look at writing as a business. I write it, the publisher buys it, and we do it all over again, because that's how publishing works.

I take my writing very seriously, but also understand that no one from the agent to the publisher sees it as anything other than money maker for them.

My goals are modest. I want to write well enough for a publisher to buy just one of my works and publish it because they think it will sell. If I never publish another ms, I'll be happy.

My goal is not, for the precieved prestige that readers have of a published writer, booksiginings where I feel special because lots of people want my autograph, respect my opinion on a writing thread at this board, or other grandiose ideas of fame and fortune.

At the end of the day we're all just people, no one better than the other. Readers put writers on pedestals, I don't want to be a writer who starts believing, falsely, that it's true.

I write because I love to write, and because I want to achieve my personal goal of having one of my books published by a reputable publisher so I can say to myself, you've done what you set out to do, write well.

I'll let this go, because it really doesn't belong in LWWUJ.

Thank you- Re TYPING doesn't make me feel sick lmao...

Kerry

Well, although I kind of disagree with your theory- I do believe it should be in here- I've gotten hurt because I was so invested in what I wrote...

I think it's the same thing as having a routine, if you don't care about your writing, you won't enjoy it as much, and it won't matter so much- having it matter is the part that hurts if it doesn't to others- but at the same time- if you get so calloused inside you could wind up writing those things that readers don't care to read because there isn't any passion in them.

Readers know these things AS they read what the author wrote. If the author could care less- and just wants the money for the product.... I wouldn't care about the product either.

So learning to have a thick enough skin to be able to sell- and yet- not so thick as to avoid caring- I think is a part of learning how to write- IMHO.

Kerry

HConn said:

Sure, if someone said "I wrote that piece because my kid needed to go to the dentist" you'd be clued in, but otherwise, it'd be impossible to tell.

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Even then it's difficult to tell. A writer I know is one of the most fanatic craftsmen imaginable. He agonizes over every word, writes and re-writes, outlines, plots, researches minute and arcane details, argues with editors and copyeditors ... you'd think he was a jeweler working on the Koh-i-noor.

But the affect he shows to the public is "Hey, I'm a hack. I'm out to get your beer money!"

Why? Nickle-a-throw psychoanalysis is always tricky, but I think it's to lessen the sting if people don't like his offerings.

Writers tell stories. It's what we do. We even tell stories about ourselves.

Yet more rules for writing:

First Florence King, on porno guidelines.

Next, Robert Heinlein's Rules for Writing. (Astoundingly enough, from an address he gave at the US Naval Academy.)

The Florence King bit is recycled from her earlier essay, "Confessions of a Lady Pornographer, " (Penthouse, September 1973), which doesn't seem to be reprinted, collected, or otherwise available anywhere. The original was longer, more useful, and well-worth searching out.

OEY VEY! Anyway.

I recieved a rejection yesterday, and tossed it in the folder with the others I've accumlulated, and went back to writing.

All the rejection said to me was, your writing isn't good enough yet to have us pay you for it.

I didn't cry, send a nasty return note saying the editor doesn't know what they're talking about, becasue they do, or look for comfirmation of my writing prowess from a lacky friend. I'm proud of that. Writing maturity.

Have I said I'm passionate about my writing yet? Well I am.

And UJ may have hit the proverbial nail on the head. I'm not letting anyone get in the way of my goals no matter how harsh they come across. I'll hide behind any facade I can throw to keep from being dejected, and write on.

Besides, half the fun is in getting there.

Ken Schneider said:

Besides, half the fun is in getting there.

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Which half?

caw

All the fun, as far as I'm concerned. This applies to most things in life, actually. The goal is usually a let-down, getting to the goal is what's interesting.

Doyle and I will be heading up to WorldCon on Friday. Our schedules are here.

Salis said:

All the fun, as far as I'm concerned. This applies to most things in life, actually. The goal is usually a let-down, getting to the goal is what's interesting.

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Perhaps I am different, but I usually take a proverbial moment to enjoy the summits I reach.

I often found the goals to be anticlimactic until I learned to stop and access what I had accomplished. Now, I find a simple joy in knowing I have accomplished that which I set out to do, even if it nothing more than taking the trash all week without having the wife remind me of the task.

I know. I know, but I might accomplish that some day.

Hey, I enjoy it all. Every minute. And tomorrow will be even better!

I've been stressing over dialogue. Specifically tags, said words, and actions in dialogue. I've gotten the impression that:

Fred frowned. "You clearly don't understand me." =BEST
"You clearly don't understand me," Fred said, frowning. =BETTER
"You clearly don't understand me," Fred growled. =GOOD
"You clearly don't understand me," Fred growled angrily. =BAD

Overall I'm rather confused. I naturally use a fair amount of said words when I write, but I've been told they are something to avoid. I try to work actions, or the indication of emotion through action into my dialogue, but I never know if it's right.

I've tried looking at books I like to see how they do it, but then I just end up sounding like them. The reason I bring this us is because I honestly don't know if how I naturally do it works or not.

Are there "rules" for this sort of thing, or am I stressing over nothing?

I find getting to the goal to be a tremendous relief. I don't celebrate; I sit down.

Neversage said:

I've been stressing over dialogue. Specifically tags, said words, and actions in dialogue. I've gotten the impression that:

Fred frowned. "You clearly don't understand me." =BEST
"You clearly don't understand me," Fred said, frowning. =BETTER
"You clearly don't understand me," Fred growled. =GOOD
"You clearly don't understand me," Fred growled angrily. =BAD

Overall I'm rather confused. I naturally use a fair amount of said words when I write, but I've been told they are something to avoid. I try to work actions, or the indication of emotion through action into my dialogue, but I never know if it's right.

I've tried looking at books I like to see how they do it, but then I just end up sounding like them. The reason I bring this us is because I honestly don't know if how I naturally do it works or not.

Are there "rules" for this sort of thing, or am I stressing over nothing?

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Not really rules, because you (could) use any of those tags. Remember that he/she said is always best. Although, some of those tags will look amaturish.
You could show some action before the tags, as in.

Fred threw his hands up in the air, and shook his head. He had to asked himself. Why doesn't Mille ever listen when I'm talking? Today was the day to let blow his frustration. It was like he spoke a foriegn language. "For God's sakes how many times do I have to repeat myself? You didn't understand a damed thing I said, did you?"

No tags. And, I assume you know what's going on without using, Fred frowned and said?

"Said" words ... the word "said" itself is invisible. The other said word are spices. You want spices or the food is bland, but too much and the food is inedible.

That's where the art comes in. Your style, your choice.

Thanks guys. I think I understand.

I once read a novel where none of the characters ever "said" anything. They shouted, retorted, answered, rejoined, whispered, growled, yelled, and many, many more verbs.

It was so distracting that I couldn't finish the book.

I found this on p82 of Self-Editing for Fiction Writers by Browne and King ed.2

'Mr Ludlum has other peculiarities. For example, he hates the "he said" locution and avoids it as much as possible. Characters in The Bourne Ultimatum seldom "say" anything. Instead, they cry, interject, interrupt, muse, state, counter, conclude, mumble, whisper,... intone, roar, exclaim, fume, explode, mutter. There is one especially unforgettable tautology: " 'I repeat,' repeated Alex."

The book may sell in the billions, but it's still junk.' - Newgate Callender, The New York Times Book Review

An amusing toy:

http://www.literature-map.com/audrey+niffenberger.html

http://www.literature-map.com/stephen+king.html

http://www.literature-map.com/dan+brown.html

http://www.literature-map.com/michael+crichton.html

Girl Genius, a web-comic mentioned above, won a Hugo last night.

Hooray for Girl Genius! I love it!

James D. Macdonald said:

Girl Genius, a web-comic mentioned above, won a Hugo last night.

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Well deserved and way overdue, imo