The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

razzirazz said:

I admit that a POD book for sale on a publishers' site is also lost in cyberspace, but if Joe comes across it by happenstance, he at least recognizes it as a "real" book with pages that turn and all. And he might be tempted to buy it if he simply just had to give PayPal his credit card number.
You may disagree with my thinking but take your own survey next time you're
in that long line at the Supermarket and perhaps you might learn this to be true. I did.__ Jim

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You know, this describes perfectly my behavior when I log onto what used to be peanutpress (now ereader.com?). I make sure to buy the latest edition of Ellery Queen and Alfred Hitchcock's Mystery Mag, but I cannot just purchase these mags. I invariably end up shoving loads of both impulse fiction and non-fiction into my cart (what everyone else is reading!) . And then some true crime, some anthology or another, a reference book and a self-help manual or two (to assuage my guilt for spending so much on titles I know I bought purely for the pleasure of reading). I earnestly hate some of the ebooks I've bought, and I further resent that I can never resell them. But the point is---there is no dearth of good books you can buy with a click of your mouse, and that can be delivered to you immediately. I can buy Ian McEwan's latest rightnow-- so why would I peruse PA's latest offerings? How could the immediacy of your offering be an advantage?

Oh, fictionwise...better than por--er, chocolate.

Ed Williams said:

...from the Great and Mighty Land of Poz:

Personally, if a PA author told me that they'd made $34,000 in royalties, I would be tempted to ask them who their agent is, Dorothy Deering?

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I fear these kinds of claims are bordering on the pathological. These people are so insistent in being recognized as "successful published authors," they are starting to believe the lies they tell themselves. Me... I know I'm not successful, heck I'm not even published yet (but soon!). Hopefully at that point, I'll have the good sense to not make an *** of myself by deigning to tell everyone else that I AM AN AUTHOR AND THEREFORE I KNOW MORE ABOUT PUBLISHING THAN ANYONE ON THE PLANET


For Jeff and Ed...

"One...two...three... four...five...well it looks like we're a couple of flowers short so some of you boys are gonna have to share." (Otter)

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Rob

razzirazz said:

I admit that a POD book for sale on a publishers' site is also lost in cyberspace, but if Joe comes across it by happenstance, he at least recognizes it as a "real" book with pages that turn and all. And he might be tempted to buy it if he simply just had to give PayPal his credit card number.
You may disagree with my thinking but take your own survey next time you're
in that long line at the Supermarket and perhaps you might learn this to be true. I did.

__ Jim

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I disagree to some extent. I'm publishing my first book as an e-book, and I'm not the least bit worried that I won't have any readers. Why? Because I know the niche my book is in has a large market. As far as I know, there's no niche market for PA/POD books (except for friends and family of the author). I don't have to tell any of my friends and family about my book, and I'll still make sales. People will search for Romantica and erotica--and are more likely to buy it in the privacy of their own home instead of venturing into their local adult bookshop (I don't see why. I think adult bookstores are fun...) but I can't think of anybody who would fire up a search engine to seek out PA or POD books.

pepperlandgirl said:

I Because I know the niche my book is in has a large market. As far as I know, there's no niche market for PA/POD book...

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Let's not confuse a marketing category with a method of reproduction or a business model.

Interview Report

The interview went well, though I was a little more nervous than I usually am with these things. Still, I made most of the points I wanted to on PA and as a surprise bonus...I got to plug my new book as well. I wasn't expecting that.

diana
(gotta run, I've got a million things to catch up on at work from leaving early yesterday--one day, I'll just sit home and write, but today is not that day).

Diana Hignutt said:

The interview went well, though I was a little more nervous than I usually am with these things. Still, I made most of the points I wanted to on PA and as a surprise bonus...I got to plug my new book as well. I wasn't expecting that.

diana
(gotta run, I've got a million things to catch up on at work from leaving early yesterday--one day, I'll just sit home and write, but today is not that day).

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I'm glad it went well. You're so brave.

Over in that Great and Wonderful Land of Poz...

...we find that the PA/WWE thread is growing, almost mutating into another life form. And folks, one my fav PA posters, Mr. Platts, makes a cameo appearance! You can read all the latest here:

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8361.htm

Y'all know, seeing as how in the past two PA authors were genuinely working on scheduling a public boxing match over a thread dispute, nothing surprises me anymore. And I think we are about to see a few new recruits over here because of what's going on in this thread. If any of y'all are thinking about making the change, come on over!

Boon:

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Now. I want you to fix Pinto up, but it's gotta be a very special girl.
Pinto: Listen you don't have —
Boon: Now, she should be decent looking, but we're willing to trade looks for a certain kind of morally casual attitude.
Katy: Oh! You mean, you want someone he can screw on the first date?
Boon: Well put.

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James D. Macdonald said:

So ... this may not have been a Real Opportunity in the first place.

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The problem would be to find enough authors to sign on. PA authors were fooled by PA's pitch, since the ripoff was subtle, but many of them would still understand that paying over $100 just to be displayed in a bookstore was not likely to be a good idea.

Ed Williams said:

...we find that the PA/WWE thread is growing, almost mutating into another life form. And folks, one my fav PA posters, Mr. Platts, makes a cameo appearance! You can read all the latest here:

http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/lounge/8361.htm

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Yowza! I look for those folks to start cannibalizing each other any day now.

Diana Hignutt said:

The interview went well, though I was a little more nervous than I usually am with these things. Still, I made most of the points I wanted to on PA and as a surprise bonus...I got to plug my new book as well. I wasn't expecting that.

diana
(gotta run, I've got a million things to catch up on at work from leaving early yesterday--one day, I'll just sit home and write, but today is not that day).

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When is it going to air?? I always watch Channel 6 at 5pm, usually the hour when Nydia runs her Consumer Alerts.

And that thread? Is there a mutiny a brewin on the great and mighty Pirate Ship? Arggg, me hearties!

..And really bad eggs. (I've watched Pirates of the Carribbean about 4 times this week)

JennaGlatzer said:

And just to be obnoxious, I sold 2,000 copies of my first e-book.

To be honest, I think e-books and POD books have about the same chances of success.

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You know, I don't think I agree. E-books have become a niche market in and of themselves, with an enthusiastic audience, especially e-books in certain genres such as romance. I'd guess that the average e-book with one of the larger e-publishers has a much better chance within its niche than the average nicheless POD book.

- Victoria

Agreeing with Victoria. My ebooks sell much better than any of my work in print.

No Bookstores in Malls

Canada James said:

And that's the very reason why there are no indie bookstores in malls.

In a city near me, there are two indies in malls. One is in an older, established mall and has expanded through the years; the other is in a strip mall at a busy intersection. Both have been around well over a decade. (And both give signings to--and carry books by--self-pubbed local authors.)

PVish (a new member who has been following this thread for a while but who has no affiliation with PA, thank goodness)

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razzirazz said:

I admit that a POD book for sale on a publishers' site is also lost in cyberspace, but if Joe comes across it by happenstance, he at least recognizes it as a "real" book with pages that turn and all. And he might be tempted to buy it if he simply just had to give PayPal his credit card number.

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The Average Joe who is not Interweb-savvy enough to know what Adobe Reader is won't understand that the POD book he's stumbled across online is a physical book, and probably doesn't have a PayPal account. You're conflating the traits of different types of people there.

razzirazz said:

You may disagree with my thinking but take your own survey next time you're in that long line at the Supermarket and perhaps you might learn this to be true. I did.

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I've done this. I've worked retail; both in bookstores and other stores. I also buy scads of books myself, and hang out with people who buy a lot of books (some of whom own bookstores). I don't know anyone who buys a book from an unknown author and an unknown publisher on impulse while standing in line. (I know people who regularly buy the latest Harlequins, for example, even if they don't recognize the authors, but that's because they know what they're getting from that particular line from that publisher.) As for impulse buying while standing in line--publishers pay big money to have their books featured at just those places. It's prime space, and you won't be able to afford to have stores place your books there.

The single most influential thing in getting me to pick up a book by an author I don't know is the cover. It has to look professional, it has to look like the kind of book I enjoy--in other words, it has to look like it's a good bet to be worth my time to take a closer look at. The covers of most POD books are so bad that I have no reason to waste my limited browsing time on them. Period. Authors say, "But you should evaluate my book based on what's inside, not on the cover!" My answer is, "But why should I pick up your book if the cover doesn't indicate it's going to be something I'm likely to enjoy?" It's not my job as a book buyer to give every book out there an equal chance. I'm only interested in the ones I feel are worth my time and money. It's your publisher's job to indicate to me that your book is worth those things. PA doesn't do a good job of that.

Why the New Three Stooges need to have...

....some serious shoe leather stuffed right up their heinies - here are some more PA authors being led right down Dead End Avenue....

How many of you have sold a 100 copies of your book .. 200 copies ..500 ?

I am betting that there are very few, that even fit into the 100 copies. That is unless you have a very lot of family and friends.

This does not mean that you did not write a good book. It simply means that your (and mine) books are not on book shelfs where the public can see them ... remember that old cliche "out of sight, out of mind."

The only way the puplic sees a POD books is when you or a friends tell someone about it.

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In response, from their fellow PA authors...

I don't understand what you are talking about. I have seen PA books in stores. You must not have gone out and done any promoting.

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I do understand that it must be very
difficult for people who live in rural areas to
market their book. I am not saying it is
impossible. They just have to market
differently and travel more.

I contacted a bookstore near the town where
our family gathers for yearly reunions. This is
the only bookstore in the entire county.
Anyone ordering Bible school material, church
material, etc., get it through this bookstore
because it is the only one around. Its only
competition is Walmart. I will travel about 2
1/2 hours to get there, but it will probably be
worth the trip if I make a good impression. By
the way, the owner didn't want anything sent by
email.

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My release date is next Monday. I have kept track of
people who have told me they have purchased books
via the pre release letters and I have over 40. I checked
through the top 150 best sellers with amazon.com for
Publish America and last night I was 127, so people
have bought through them also.

I followed the PA marketing suggestions, made up a
written marketing plan, check off the tasks I do and put
new ones there from time to time. I have emailed my
high school class and my college class as well as my
college. My brother talked about my book in his church
last Sunday and my daughter has sold books to people
she works with.

My book became available last fall. My royalty check in February was for 53 books. I, myself, have sold 120 books.

I have a book signing scheduled for May [one evening], a reading and signing event in June [1 day], two signings in July [one 3 day and the other 2 days] and one signing in October [4 day event]

I also have about 6 other presentation requests sent recently and am hoping to get a recent review of my book [it's posted somewhere on this site-I'ved not found it yet]printed in an international magazine.

I'm very lucky to be retired so I can promote full time.

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I guess PA will never get around to telling them that if they do everything they suggest from a marketing standpoint that their books still will not be successful. The PA system assures the PA author of failure to sell a meaningful amount of books to anyone except one audience: themselves.

Bluto:

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My advice to you is to start drinking heavily.
Otter: Better listen to him, Flounder. He's pre-med.

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Aconite said:

Authors say, "But you should evaluate my book based on what's inside, not on the cover!" My answer is, "But why should I pick up your book if the cover doesn't indicate it's going to be something I'm likely to enjoy?" It's not my job as a book buyer to give every book out there an equal chance. I'm only interested in the ones I feel are worth my time and money. It's your publisher's job to indicate to me that your book is worth those things. PA doesn't do a good job of that.

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A lot of people forget that as readers, we owe the authors nothing. There is absolutely nothing that I, as a reader, should do for a book or its writer other than obtain it legally. The author's/publisher's job is to make a book so enticing that I feel it is to my benefit to obtain it, but the onus is on them, not me.

I recently got a .jpg of the cover art for my book, and I sent the artist a thank you for doing such a great job, because I understand the importance of good cover art in selling my book. No matter how well I wrote, if the artwork is bad on the front, a sizable portion of the population will simply not buy it.

pa threads

I don’t know how anyone can even stand to look at the PA threads. They make me sick to my stomach. These people just don’t get it and I don’t get that!

Aconite said:

The single most influential thing in getting me to pick up a book by an author I don't know is the cover. It has to look professional, it has to look like the kind of book I enjoy--in other words, it has to look like it's a good bet to be worth my time to take a closer look at. The covers of most POD books are so bad that I have no reason to waste my limited browsing time on them. Period. Authors say, "But you should evaluate my book based on what's inside, not on the cover!" My answer is, "But why should I pick up your book if the cover doesn't indicate it's going to be something I'm likely to enjoy?" It's not my job as a book buyer to give every book out there an equal chance. I'm only interested in the ones I feel are worth my time and money. It's your publisher's job to indicate to me that your book is worth those things. PA doesn't do a good job of that.

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This is a great point to bring up. People do judge books by their cover. Or, at least, an attractive cover will make them pick up the book and take a look at it.

There's a reason why romance novels have similar covers: to tell the reader immediately what type of book they are. The person who buys romance novels thus knows at once that this book is in her field of interest. And getting the reader to pick up a book in a bookstore is the first, essential step in selling it.

But a poorly designed cover is not going to attract readers. It's like going on a job interview: if you wear a dirty t-shirt, worn jeans, beat-up sneakers, and have gone a week without a bath, then no matter how good you are, you're not going to get the job. Especially when the next person shows up well-groomed and well-dressed.

NicoleJLeBoeuf said:

Mountain Lion Management?
Mushroom Linguini Marinara?
M_______ L________ M________?

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It should be "PS." As in "Ponzi scheme" or "pyramid scheme." The clearest ancestor (although these things, in various forms, go back at least into the Renaissance in Venice) is Charles Ponzi's scheme involving international postal-reply coupons. Ponzi advertised that there was a huge opportunity for arbitrage between the price of purchasing IRCs overseas and what they could be redeemed for in the US. Now, if only some intrepid investors would help him buy more overseas, they would earn a fabulous return! The "pyramid" is that the return for early investors comes from the money put into the scheme by later investors.

MLM is an (ocasionally successful) attempt to avoid the legal problems with pyramid schemes by actually providing products. (The problem with Ponzi's scheme was that it depended upon costless and unlimited cashability of the IRCs—which didn't exist.) Amway is the paradigmatic example; another is the notorious Interplanetary Unlimited scheme in the 1970s and early 1980s, which nearly cost F. Lee Bailey his law license. The critical test is not whether a product is being sold; it is whether it is possible to profit by only selling products. Amway, for many years, asserted that it was; its accounting, however, continued to be questioned, and has since been rejected by the IRS on about the fifth reexamination of its 1981 returns. The reality is that one has a realistic opportunity to profit in MLM schemes only by selling distributorships to others—that is, moving up the pyramid. There may have been one or two people across the country who showed a profit purely from sales—but it was not a sustainable profit.

Thank you for listening to this lesson in legal/historical trivia. /

Animal House is the best thing that ever happened to this thread

Donald 'Boon' Schoenstein: Where are you going? We just got here.
Katy: No, Boon, you just got here. I've been downstairs for an hour entertaining some kid from Pig's Knuckle, Arkansas.
Donald 'Boon' Schoenstein: Umm -- maybe we could drive up to your folks' place this weekend.
Katy: Oh, fabulous. My car filled with your beer buddies going up to empty my parents' liquor cabinet. It's too depressing to think about.
Donald 'Boon' Schoenstein: No! Just gonna be you and me. And Otter and another girl.
Katy: Is this really what you're gonna do for the rest of your life?
Donald 'Boon' Schoenstein: What do you mean?
Katy: I mean hanging around with a bunch of animals getting drunk every weekend.
Donald 'Boon' Schoenstein: No! After I graduate, I'm gonna get drunk every night.
Katy: I think I'm in love with a retard.
Donald 'Boon' Schoenstein: Is he bigger than me?

Jaws said:

It should be "PS." As in "Ponzi scheme" or "pyramid scheme."

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There is a difference between a Ponzi Scheme and a pyramid scheme (Ponzi's not a pyramid).

In a Ponzi Scheme, Ponzi gets people to give him money. He then uses the money to pay earlier investors, who, happy with their returns, give Ponzi more money, that he uses to pay off later investors, etc. There was only a single level of investors, and the investors were not recruiting additional investors.

In a pyramid scheme, the originator, gets money from a group of people, who go out and recruit others, who go out and recruit others, etc. The recruiters pay the people who recruited them a percentage, but keep most of the money. Thus, the pyramid structure: more people on each level.

The structure of a Ponzi scheme is more like a massive orrery, viewed from above:



Assume a few thousand planets and that the bars show the transfer of money to the central point (the sun = Ponzi).

Ponzi schemes are far fewer than pyramid schemes, especially since, with a Ponzi scheme, when it fails, everyone knows who's to blame.

I'm not sure the Novel Idea plan was MLM or a Ponzi. I think it was the far simpler

1) Put your money in an envelope,
2) Give it to me

Plan.

James D. Macdonald said:

I'm not sure the Novel Idea plan was MLM or a Ponzi. I think it was the far simplier

1) Put your money in an envelope,
2) Give it to me

Plan.

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You could be right but that first article victoria linked had a "sound" to it that smacked of MLM. There are products to sell (whether they actually get sold or not) and somebody will have to open the stores up under the "guidance" of what's his name.

I'm also inclined to think you were right in an earlier post that there is no real business.