Copyright Office Cost!!!

scope · Jun 1, 2011

One of my books (my first) was in print from 1970 to 2003. It's been out of print since then and I've been walking into walls trying to find out who currently owns the copyright. I finally emailed the U.S. Copyright office and just received a reply. They didn't tell me who owns the copyright, only that for them to research same I would have to pay $130 an hour (they say I should figure $330 if I want to proceed and to call them with credit card info if so). Also, it will take about 8 weeks.

I contacted the original copyright holder who sold their business (a biggy) to another biggy. I contacted the new biggy and they know nothing. I think the whole thing is insane.

Any ideas?

DeleyanLee · Jun 1, 2011

Easy answer: Look at what's printed in the book as to who owns the copyright. Whoever that is won't have changed since the book was in print.

Since the book was copyrighted in 1970--before the law change of 1978 and others--the length of copyright is what I'd be looking at to see if it's still in effect or the work has gone into public domain. I don't think it should've, but it would be good to be certain.

Good luck.

Jamesaritchie · Jun 1, 2011

Are you sure you don't own copyright? I retain copyright on every novel I've had published, regardless of who the publisher is.

Have you tried simply looking up the book on the copyright site? I can do this with each of mine, and it tells me who owns the copyright, which happens to be me.

If it's in their catalog, you should be able to find it, and see who holds copyright.

MJNL · Jun 1, 2011

I'm curious as to why you ask. Like James said, it could be you. Actually, you always own your copyright. Publishers simply lease the rights from you. If you’re asking because you want to continue work in the same universe, go for it. Doesn’t matter what publisher filed your copyright, the work is still yours.

If you’re asking because you’re trying to figure out if you can take your backlist to a different publisher, then yes, you do need to figure out if they’re still leasing the rights.

I’m guessing your contract must have gotten misplaced. That should have told you what rights were purchased.

And bummer on the investigative costs. That seems outrageous, and I’ve never heard of it before.

Good luck, sorry I can't actually be of help!

scope · Jun 1, 2011

DeleyanLee said:
Easy answer: Look at what's printed in the book as to who owns the copyright. Whoever that is won't have changed since the book was in print.

Since the book was copyrighted in 1970--before the law change of 1978 and others--the length of copyright is what I'd be looking at to see if it's still in effect or the work has gone into public domain. I don't think it should've, but it would be good to be certain.

Good luck.

DeleyanLee,

The original copyright holder in 1970 is the company that sold to another company. I realize it's logical to assume that the copyright belongs to the original, but I don't know, and I
can't find out if it was somehow transferred to the new company. I'm just walking into walls.

Their are two ISBN #'s. One 10 digits, the other 13 digits.

Thanks for your help.

scope · Jun 1, 2011

Jamesaritchie said:
Are you sure you don't own copyright? I retain copyright on every novel I've had published, regardless of who the publisher is.

Have you tried simply looking up the book on the copyright site? I can do this with each of mine, and it tells me who owns the copyright, which happens to be me.

If it's in their catalog, you should be able to find it, and see who holds copyright.

James,

Unfortunately I'm sure I don't own the copyright to this book. I got a tremendous deal from the original publisher (very large advance, very high royalties, huge promotion and marketing, etc.) and it being my first, and me being stupid, I gave them the copyright (although in retrospect I certainly wouldn't have gotten from them what I did without doing so, and who know what would have happened from there). All other books I have retained copyright.

I have tried--unsuccessfully--to look it up on the copyright site.

Thanks for your help.
Steve

scope · Jun 1, 2011

MJNL said:
I'm curious as to why you ask. Like James said, it could be you. Actually, you always own your copyright. Publishers simply lease the rights from you.

The publishing company is listed as the copyright holder in every version of the book (hardcover, paperback, foreign). The problem is exasperated by the fact that my original copy of the contract (with more more) was lost in a fire that destroyed my apartment house in 1999.

If you’re asking because you want to continue work in the same universe, go for it. Doesn’t matter what publisher filed your copyright, the work is still yours.

What I would like to do is e-pub this book. I think it still has a lot of legs and I believe my platform and connecions might help. It would be my first attempt at SP'ing an e-book.

If you’re asking because you’re trying to figure out if you can take your backlist to a different publisher, then yes, you do need to figure out if they’re still leasing the rights.

This is a long shot, but not out of the picture.

I’m guessing your contract must have gotten misplaced. That should have told you what rights were purchased.

See above re fire.

And bummer on the investigative costs. That seems outrageous, and I’ve never heard of it before.

Neither have I. Maybe a call to the Author's Guild might help steer me in the right direction.

Good luck, sorry I can't actually be of help!

Thanks MJLN.

IceCreamEmpress · Jun 1, 2011

So if the prior publisher is out of business, and the people to whom they sold the business don't believe they own the copyright, I am not seeing any obstacle to your reissuing this. Am I missing something? It doesn't seem like anyone would be disputing the copyright with you. You have done due diligence in good faith, it seems to me.

How could anyone prove that you didn't have the authority to publish this book? They'd have to produce a copy of the original contract, which the new business doesn't seem to have.

I understand your desire to be totally scrupulous here, and I applaud you for it, but I am also doubting that paying hundreds of dollars to the USCO is going to get you an inch farther along than you are now.

MJNL · Jun 1, 2011

Wow, a house fire, that'll do it. Sorry to hear about that.

It does seem like the publisher who bought the previous publisher should be able to tell you straight up if they are holding the rights or not.

I don't know how you've tried to contact them, but perhaps a letter to their legal department might get better results than, say, one to an editor.

It might be worth looking into what happens when one pubber buys another: are all of the rights transferred to the new publisher, or do new contracts have to be drawn up? If new contracts need signed, and that didn't happen, that should make it clear that the rights have reverted back to you.

And, I think if they write back with a "we don't know," I suspect you’re good as long as you hold onto those papers (though I’m not a lawyer, so don’t quote me on that). You could even inform them, if you wanted to, that you are interpreting that as them relinquishing legal claim to the work. That might either get them to push for more information, or a green light to do what you please.

I don't know how transference of acquisitions works in the industry, to be quite honest, but those are my thoughts.

As IceCreamEmpress said, once you’ve contacted all entities you can, you’ve done your job. If you can verify that no one is going to challenge your claim, even better. At least you know that if no one can offer proof that they hold it it’s yours!

Hope that was a little more helpful.

ETA: You might have done all this already. If so, don't mind me.

Susan Coffin · Jun 1, 2011

scope said:
One of my books (my first) was in print from 1970 to 2003. It's been out of print since then and I've been walking into walls trying to find out who currently owns the copyright. I finally emailed the U.S. Copyright office and just received a reply. They didn't tell me who owns the copyright, only that for them to research same I would have to pay $130 an hour (they say I should figure $330 if I want to proceed and to call them with credit card info if so). Also, it will take about 8 weeks.

I contacted the original copyright holder who sold their business (a biggy) to another biggy. I contacted the new biggy and they know nothing. I think the whole thing is insane.

Any ideas?

Oh my goodness, that is a dilemma! It sounds very insane. Have you tried the free search at Copyright.gov? They are for works published from 1978 to the present date.

Also, the University of Pennsylvania is supposed to have a search function to find out copyrights, but I was unable to get on their site.

Good luck, and please tell us how it goes.

Susan Coffin · Jun 1, 2011

Scope, I now see you have looked it up at the copyright office. You might want to try the copyright search at Penn University. You never know.

scope · Jun 1, 2011

IceCreamEmpress said:
So if the prior publisher is out of business, (YES) and the people to whom they sold the business don't believe they own the copyright, (It's an entertainment company that doesn't do book publishing. A few entertainment mags, yes. They have no idea what I'm talking about). I am not seeing any obstacle to your reissuing this. Am I missing something? It doesn't seem like anyone would be disputing the copyright with you. You have done due diligence in good faith, it seems to me. (Good advice).

How could anyone prove that you didn't have the authority to publish this book? They'd have to produce a copy of the original contract, which the new business doesn't seem to have.

I understand your desire to be totally scrupulous here, and I applaud you for it, but I am also doubting that paying hundreds of dollars to the USCO is going to get you an inch farther along than you are now. (Makes sense)

Thanks.

scope · Jun 1, 2011

MJNL said:
It does seem like the publisher who bought the previous publisher should be able to tell you straight up if they are holding the rights or not. (No, but wouldn't you think so?).

I don't know how you've tried to contact them, but perhaps a letter to their legal department might get better results than, say, one to an editor. (Tried, no use).

It might be worth looking into what happens when one pubber buys another: are all of the rights transferred to the new publisher, or do new contracts have to be drawn up? If new contracts need signed, and that didn't happen, that should make it clear that the rights have reverted back to you. (Since in the long and short run I want peace of mind and don't want to leave myself open, I'm thinking of turning the whole matter over to an intellectual rights attorney. It will cost a few bucks but it may the most prudent thing I can do).

Hope that was a little more helpful.

Yes, and thanks much.

ss

scope · Jun 1, 2011

Susan Littlefield said:
Oh my goodness, that is a dilemma! It sounds very insane. Have you tried the free search at Copyright.gov? They are for works published from 1978 to the present date.

Yes, I tried the free search, but to no avail. My guess is that the book was published in 1970.

Also, the University of Pennsylvania is supposed to have a search function to find out copyrights, but I was unable to get on their site.

I will definitely try Penn.

Good luck, and please tell us how it goes.

Thanks for the well wishes and te good advice. I will let you know what happens. If nothing else it's an interesting case.

Deleted member 42 · Jun 1, 2011

scope said:
One of my books (my first) was in print from 1970 to 2003. It's been out of print since then and I've been walking into walls trying to find out who currently owns the copyright.

Do you have the original contract? Was it work for hire--and you sold them all rights?

Or did you give them a limited license for certain rights for a certain period of time?

Do you have a copy of the book? What does the frontmatter say?

Jamesaritchie · Jun 2, 2011

scope said:
James,

Unfortunately I'm sure I don't own the copyright to this book. I got a tremendous deal from the original publisher (very large advance, very high royalties, huge promotion and marketing, etc.) and it being my first, and me being stupid, I gave them the copyright (although in retrospect I certainly wouldn't have gotten from them what I did without doing so, and who know what would have happened from there). All other books I have retained copyright.

I have tried--unsuccessfully--to look it up on the copyright site.

Thanks for your help.
Steve

Man, that bites. no publisher has ever even asked me for copyright. When you sell copyright, you're selling every right, all rights, and the entire future of the book.

Your best chance is probably the contract. There may be a clause saying the copyright reverts back to you once the book is out of print. I have this clause for the rights publishers do buy. If such a clause isn't there, you're probably out of luck.

But whoever owns copyright, the book should still be listed with the copyright office. Every book since 1978 is searchable in the catalog. Is it possible it was registered before 1978?

Deleted member 42 · Jun 2, 2011

scope said:
Their are two ISBN #'s. One 10 digits, the other 13 digits.

Thanks for your help.

That means someone believes that they own the copyright; they requested and received (and paid for) a new 13 digit ISBN.

That ISBN should tell you who owns the copyright, or believes that they do.

scope · Jun 2, 2011

Medievalist said:
Do you have the original contract? Was it work for hire--and you sold them all rights?

Contract was lost in a home fire. No, it wasn't work for hire.

Or did you give them a limited license for certain rights for a certain period of time?

No.

Do you have a copy of the book? What does the frontmatter say?

Copyright @ 1969 (name of company)
Akk rights reserved. No part of this book may be reproduced...

Revised 1979
Library of Congress Catalog Number.......

Thanks Medievalist

scope · Jun 2, 2011

Jamesaritchie said:
Man, that bites. no publisher has ever even asked me for copyright. When you sell copyright, you're selling every right, all rights, and the entire future of the book.

I know. As I said, it was the first book I wrote and the publisher made me an increible offer to beat offers made by other publishers. Being overwhelmed and void of any publishing knowledge at the time I only had a regular attorney with me when I met with the publishers board of 10 and only made some changes, which although to my benfit, didn't address this issue -- which I never even thought about at the time. I quickly learned thereafter.

Your best chance is probably the contract. There may be a clause saying the copyright reverts back to you once the book is out of print. I have this clause for the rights publishers do buy. If such a clause isn't there, you're probably out of luck.

I think you are right. I'm doing all I can to get hold of a copy.

But whoever owns copyright, the book should still be listed with the copyright office. Every book since 1978 is searchable in the catalog. Is it possible it was registered before 1978?

Yes, 1970 or 1969, and I'm guessing that's why the copyright office is having a problem.

Thanks for your concern.

scope · Jun 2, 2011

Medievalist said:
That means someone believes that they own the copyright; they requested and received (and paid for) a new 13 digit ISBN.

That ISBN should tell you who owns the copyright, or believes that they do.

Makes sense to me, but perhaps not if the 13 digit ISBN was requested before 1978???

rsullivan9597 · Jun 2, 2011

Boy...I would call an Intellectual propererty lawyer and ask them a few questions - I think they would do it for free in the hopes of you using their services.

The issue that some here may be confusing is print rights - which will revert (especially if a company goes out of business) and copyright - which I'm not sure does. For instance if you do "work for hire" and the company you worked for goes out of business the work does not "revert to you" as it was never yours to begin with - even though you created it.

If we were talking about a contract to publish - I would say differently but I think you gave away all claims to this work when you signed over the copyright - but I'm not a a laywer but asking a single question such as.....

If I signed over the copyright to a company that no longer exists - do I have rights to publish that work?

Would probably answer it right away.

Terie · Jun 2, 2011

scope said:
Copyright @ 1969 (name of company)
Akk rights reserved. No part of this book may be reproduced...

That typo wasn't accidental, was it?

blacbird · Jun 2, 2011

rsullivan9597 said:
Boy...I would call an Intellectual propererty lawyer and ask them a few questions - I think they would do it for free in the hopes of you using their services.

Don't bet your house on this.

IceCreamEmpress · Jun 2, 2011

rsullivan9597 said:
I think they would do it for free in the hopes of you using their services.

I have never heard of an intellectual property attorney, let alone one with expertise in publishing, doing this for an individual writer. It's not a field where people generally do "on spec" consultations in hope of attracting business the way tax or liability attorneys sometimes do.

That said, if scope lives in a city or state that has a Volunteer Lawyers for the Arts program, that might be an avenue worth pursuing.

Bubastes · Jun 2, 2011

rsullivan9597 said:
Boy...I would call an Intellectual propererty lawyer and ask them a few questions - I think they would do it for free in the hopes of you using their services.

I doubt it. A more likely scenario is that they'll charge a retainer for what they estimate the work will cost and require payment up-front.

ICE is right about the Volunteer Lawyers for the Arts route. That would be a good bet.

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