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Breakneck Books / Variance Publishing / Deviation

Popeyesays

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Medievalist said:
My question is:

How does the author know it "won't go mainstream?"

What is the author getting? What couldn't they have done, possibly better, by doing it themselves? What's the added value? Other than cover art, I don't see any added value.

Good books deserve the best; why settle?

If it hasn't sold 'mainstream', it hasn't sold 'mainstream'. How can one tell without trying? I don't think James1611 dropped the book to Breakneck straight off the starting blocks. I didn't with mine, though I didn't go with Breakneck. I was very aggressive trying to find an agent. I did not submit to the huge slushpiles that would take a year or two to send an acceptance if they wanted the book. I am barely pushing sixty these days. When I was twenty-five or thirty I would not have minded the wait. Today I begrudge that wait a lot.

"What couldn't they have done by themselves"
1) They would have had to spring for an ISBN, or if they were entirely by themselves they'd have to buy a BLOCK of ISBN's which is about $300.00.
2) They would have had to be extremely good artists or they'd have to foot the cost of a cover.
3) They'd have to be very good at self-editing, or the book will look it, unless they pay for professional editing and proof-reading.
4) They have to register with on-line booksellers for themselves, and most don't know how to do it.
5) They'd have to be very good at layout themselves, or pay for it.

6) Lightning Source and other such printers charge about $90.00 to set up the edition for printing.

All these things in particular and the sundry other costs would come out of the author's pocket. Can you afford that? I can't.

Self-published fiction is 99.999999999999999999% a waste of resources.

But most importantly, self-publishing is a leap of faith. Being selected by a small press means somebody believes in the book enough to foot those costs besides the author. That means something to me.

It is not the best of circumstances, but it's not the worst and it DOES have advantages over self-publishing.

This is all my own opinion from my own point of view. I made a decision, and I believe it was the best decision I could make given the options I had. James probably did the same thing. Anyone with the cojones to MAKE a decision should be respected for the weight of his tackle, if nothing else.

Regards,

Scott:e2apple:
 

Deleted member 42

An ISBN from Lulu is 50.00. It's not difficult to find a talented cover artist, een one that will work for free, if you try grad students in digital arts programs. I'm not, frankly, at all convinced that Breakneck offers editing, or typesetting, that's up to industry standard. Registering for online bookselling is dead easy; if you can write a book, you can certainly do that.

And again, the books aren't going to be in book stores.

But as you say, if an author wants to do that to a book, its not my business.

I'd keep trying mainstream publishing, for fiction and most non-fiction, and if the book kept getting rejected, I'd write another book. There's a reason, if a book keeps getting rejected. Write another book, while you submit, and either revise or put aside the first one.
 
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maestrowork

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PODLINGMASTER said:
Good points. But what Publisher doesn't want to sell books?? Vanity presses sell to the authors; that's how they make their money.

Not necessarily. Vanity outfits like iUniverse, with their business models, are more interested in selling publishing "services." Sure, they offer packages that help their authors "sell more books" but that's not their main focus, to sell books. Other places like PublishAmerica make their money by selling books to the authors, but I wouldn't call "selling books" their main purpose. "Getting more and more authors" is.


Any publisher that doesn't sell books by the vanity model wants to sell books to readers.

It's true in the very basic sense -- they make money by selling books. But after that, there is a difference. Do you have 10 authors and you make money by selling 10,000 books each? Or do you have 10,000 authors and sell 10 books each? Either way, they make the same profit.

But as an author, you will have to wonder, which publisher you want to be with?
 

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This has been very informative everyone.

I really appreciate all your input.

I should say this, since it is a matter of fact. I believe The Didymus Contingency sold around 8k copies over a year span, though I am not sure if it was actually through BNB.
 

maestrowork

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Popeyesays said:
(returnability) 1. No, I don't think they do, and they won't get any bookstore placement til they do.

That's one of the biggest hurdles BNB is going to have.


(sales, distribution, etc.)2. Probably not, and they won'[t get serious bookstore placement til they do.

They either have to, or need to get a distributor if they want to play with the big guys. If nothing else, they need a catalog.


(reviews) 3. Reviews by the trades? No, I don't think so. And they're unlikely to get serious bookstore placement til they do.

That's what separates the serious players with the wannabes. Trades only recognize what they consider "legit" traditional presses. Size doesn't matter, but credibility does. My publisher is small, but our books are constantly reviewed. Mine was reviewed by Publishers Weekly.


(LOC CIP) 4. I would assume they have LOC registration, but if they don't, I would certainly do it myself and anyone who goes with them should be prepared to see it done.

Yup, you need one. And you shouldn't be the one who does that. That's the publisher's job.

5. "Professional"? What precisely do you mean by the term?

That these typesetters, editors, book designers, etc. do it for a living. They're not Joe Neighbor or the publisher's cousin who happens to be an art major. They're either legit companies or independent contractors who have the skills and experience, and the publisher actually PAYS them to do the job with high quality results.

The question still remains: Is it better to let the book just waste away or to seek reputable publication.

It depends on how you answer this question: What do you want for your book? How about your career?

If Breakneck had offered me the slot instead of James1611, I would have been bothered by the lack of returns, and catalogues and sales staff.

And you should be. It shows that BNB is not ready for prime time yet. They may have the best intention and they may succeed in time, but not yet. And as long as you know what you're getting into, you are free to make your decision. However, what we're here to inform and educate is that if you really want to go the distance, you need to be aware of certain things about a publisher. It may not matter if it's a big house or a small press, but it needs to meet certain criteria.

So you know the hurdles (returns, discounts, distribution, professional book production, print runs, etc.), and now you can make informed decisions. Just like jobs -- not all jobs are created equal; not all companies are the same. Is it better to have a crappy job than no job at all? That's something you need to decide for yourself.
 
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maestrowork

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Silverhand said:
I should say this, since it is a matter of fact. I believe The Didymus Contingency sold around 8k copies over a year span, though I am not sure if it was actually through BNB.

I've heard different figures from 2000 to 4000 and now 8000. Only Jeremy Robinson knows. However, judging from the average best-selling titles at Lulu which usually sell less than 1000, and Didymus Constingency is currently at 5 (POD People is at 2300+), I am not sure about the 8000 figure. Of course, it may have sold a lot through Amazon (the new edition is at 230000+ ranking).

Also, Robinson promotes his books full-time, I believe. If you have the energy and drive to push your books full-time, doing one-on-one sales, etc. then go for it. Just know what you're getting into.
 

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Roger J Carlson said:
We seem to have differing definitions of traditional publisher. Thanks okay. You can have whatever definition you like. My definition of a traditional publisher is one that 1) pays an advance, 2) edits my book, 3) prints large quantities of books, ie not POD, 4) has a sales force to convince retail stores to stock the book, and 5) actually stocks books in stores. By my definition, BNB is not a traditional publisher...at least, it's not the kind of publisher I want to publish my book
Just as a point of distinction--this is not aimed at you, Roger--what is being described above is a commercial publisher. "Traditional publisher" is not a term with any accepted meaning in the industry. With most publishers that call themselves "traditional," it mainly just means that the author doesn't have to pay--which is just one component of the commercial publishing model.

One of the possible fallacies of using the "at least it's not a vanity POD" argument to justify settling for a small publisher that can't do much more than the PODs in terms of marketing and distribution, is the assumption that agents and editors will make the same distinction--i.e., that they'll consider publication with a micro-press to be a professional writing credit. Given how unprofessional so many of these little publishers are, I don't think you can count on that.

Just be sure you're going into it with your eyes open.

- Victoria
 
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Roger J Carlson

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victoriastrauss said:
Just as a point of distinction--this is not aimed at you, Roger--what is being described above is a commercial publisher. "Traditional publisher" is not a term with any accepted meaning in the industry. With most publishers that call themselves "traditional," it mainly just means that the author doesn't have to pay--which is just one component of the commercial publishing model.

One of the possible fallacies of using the "at least it's not a vanity POD" argument to justify settling for a small publisher that can't do much more than the PODs in terms of marketing and distribution, is the assumption that agents and editors will make the same distinction--i.e., that they'll consider publication with a micro-press to be a professional writing credit. Given how unprofessional so many of these little publishers are, I don't think you can count on that.

Just be sure you're going into it with your eyes open.

- Victoria
Thanks Victoria, that's precisely the point I was trying to make. (As usual, you make it much more eloquently.) I want my first book to count as a publishing credit to help sell my second book. I'm not convinced a small, POD press will do that, so I'd rather wait for a commercial publisher.

Note: I understand your reluctance to use the term "traditional publisher", but unfortunately, it seems to have becoming a standard term in these types of discussions. At least there is some common understanding of what the term means. I'm not sure that would be true of "commercial publisher".

PS: You know, when I run the AW spell checker, it wants to replace "victoriousness" for "victoriastrauss". I like that.
 

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Awesome info Victoria.

My obvious question to your reply is this: What kind of sale figures would make this a legit publishing venture?

Obviously, if the book sells only 100 copies, then I am doomed regardless who publishes, correct?

Now, lets assume that BNB is legit, and for whatever reason the novel sells, I dunno, 5000 copies. Does this now become a publishing credit? What if it sells 1k? 10? 20k? At what point in the success or failure of publishing a novel, will this become legitimate for both the publisher and I?
 

Lauri B

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Hi Eric,
It would be very, very unlikely for a micropress-published book to sell 5,000 copies, simply because it doesn't have the distribution in place to be in front of that many buyers.

If you did sell well more than 5,000 copies to bookstore buyers you may be able to catch the notice of a bigger publisher. Why? Because if 5,000 readers think your book is good enough to buy, then your book is good enough to be considered for publication by a commercial house.

I've read through this thread and just wanted to point out something: the publishers mentioned in this thread aren't small publishers; they are what most people consider micropublishers. We are a small publisher (some would consider us very small), and we publish anywhere from 8 to 15 titles a year. We have national and international distribution, a sales force,a foreign rights agent, and a professional staff dedicated only to publishing books. A micropublisher differs from a company like Nomad in that they don't have distribution outside of their own efforts, usually publish books as a sideline to another career, and will often either publish a lot of books (dozens a year, which implies not a lot of editing or care going into layout), or one or two.

There is nothing wrong with going with a micropublisher, but as others have said upthread, micropublishers almost never have the distribution necessary to make a dent in the bookstore market. They are also often (unfortunately) lumped in with self-publishers when it comes to being considered for reviews in trade publications and daily papers (most trade publications won't consider reviewing micropress-published books unless they have national distribution in place), and so the reviews they do receive are from publications that focus on self-pubbed books, which continues the cycle.

The other thing I want to add is that someone up thread asked if it was better to let a book die than to go with a marginal press. Someone else answered that it depended on the goals one had for one's book. I see a lot of manuscripts every day. I work at a nonfiction publisher, but I also receive lots of fiction manuscripts from friends of friends, relatives, etc. (you tell someone you're an editor and you get swamped with manuscripts of all kinds). Most books, especially first books, are pretty bad. If you are being shot down left and right from the bigger publishers and legit agents, it's really not because the publishing world is full of conspiracies against new authors or they aren't able to recognize your genius--it's because something is wrong with your manuscript.
So my answer to the question, should you let a book die or go with a marginal publisher? Let the book die. If it was good enough to be published, it would have been picked up by a good publisher.
Write a new book; learn from the feedback you've been given when you received rejections and incorporate that into your terrific new book that will make editors and agents fight over your manuscript. Save the manuscript that you can't sell for your family or kids to read at home. There is a time to move on from any endeavor, regardless of how much effort you've put into it.
 

Popeyesays

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Nomad:
"So my answer to the question, should you let a book die or go with a marginal publisher? Let the book die. If it was good enough to be published, it would have been picked up by a good publisher.
Write a new book; learn from the feedback you've been given when you received rejections and incorporate that into your terrific new book that will make editors and agents fight over your manuscript. Save the manuscript that you can't sell for your family or kids to read at home."

Good advice. But you can't really judge most of the time. The question was mine.

One of the complaints I had about one publisher was that they told me they'd get back to me 'soon' and that I would hear from their second tier editor 'soon'. Since the original response was in about ten days, I thought 'soon' would be the same kind of thing. After two weeks, I e-mailed to see what was up--No Reply. After two more weeks, I e-mailed a query as to what might be expected--No Reply. Two weeks later I tried one more time--No Reply.

Then I decided to go with the publisher who accepted it and sent out withdrawal notices to pubs and agents who had not yet responded. This particular editor immediately replied, saying that since I had benefitted from his input perhaps I would tell him who the publisher was and what the terms might be so "we could be more competitive in the future."

I wrote back that his non-response had caused me to believe they had no interest and I was surprised at his immediate response to my withdrawal. I also suggested that the publisher I had did not seem to publish e-versions of the book and might be interested in an e-pub release as well.

No response yet.

So, were they interested or not? I can't be sure. But it seems likely to me. Therefore I did have other interest in the book, even if it was an e-publisher and maybe the book really did have merit and should not have 'died' after all.

I'm glad it didn't die, even if it is a micro-publisher.

Regards,
Scott
 

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I see no harm in giving a book micro-release. If in retrospect you decide it really embarrasses you just use a new pen name...
 

Popeyesays

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Here's a funny I just got minutes ago.

"Dear Scott,

I am sorry to report that the committee, when I finally(!) got their report, have voted against Sword, two to one. I personally liked the story very much and think you write well, but the committee's decision is always final, even when I disagree.

Best,

XXXX XXXXX"

So that's three encouraging messages on the book. I am now convinced that letting it die would be a mistake.

Regards,
Scott
 

Lauri B

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Hi Popeye,
Okay, so if you had interest from another publisher, why on earth didn't you wait to see what they had to say? You gave a publisher 10 days to look at your manuscript before you started pushing them? Think about this from their end for a second: they are going to invest at least as much money in a manuscript as you would spend on a luxury car (and I mean at least). It takes most publishers almost a year to properly edit, produce, market and publicize a book to its best advantage. So you expected someone to get back to you in 10 days about whether or not they were ready to spend tens of thousands of dollars on your manuscript and a good year of company resoures? How realistic is that? Did you write your manuscript in 10 days? I hope not. Would you make all of your investment decisions in fewer than 2 weeks? Again, I hope not. So you waited a total of 6 weeks from first submission to when you jumped ship on a legit publisher (who was it, by the way?) and went with a micropublisher. That's totally fine, but you didn't really give the commercial route much of a chance, did you?

Anyway, I'm getting a little off track here because I'm so surprised that your complaint is that the publisher didn't get back to you as soon as you wanted them to. There is nothing wrong with going with a micropublisher. I wish you great success. You are absolutely right that you are the only person who can decide if your book should be put aside or not; the issue I was addressing is why many books SHOULD be put aside rather than be published with a publisher who isn't going to do the book or the author much good, careerwise.
 

Popeyesays

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Nomad said:
Hi Popeye,
Okay, so if you had interest from another publisher, why on earth didn't you wait to see what they had to say? You gave a publisher 10 days to look at your manuscript before you started pushing them? Think about this from their end for a second: they are going to invest at least as much money in a manuscript as you would spend on a luxury car (and I mean at least). It takes most publishers almost a year to properly edit, produce, market and publicize a book to its best advantage. So you expected someone to get back to you in 10 days about whether or not they were ready to spend tens of thousands of dollars on your manuscript and a good year of company resoures? How realistic is that? Did you write your manuscript in 10 days? I hope not. Would you make all of your investment decisions in fewer than 2 weeks? Again, I hope not. So you waited a total of 6 weeks from first submission to when you jumped ship on a legit publisher (who was it, by the way?) and went with a micropublisher. That's totally fine, but you didn't really give the commercial route much of a chance, did you?

Anyway, I'm getting a little off track here because I'm so surprised that your complaint is that the publisher didn't get back to you as soon as you wanted them to. There is nothing wrong with going with a micropublisher. I wish you great success. You are absolutely right that you are the only person who can decide if your book should be put aside or not; the issue I was addressing is why many books SHOULD be put aside rather than be published with a publisher who isn't going to do the book or the author much good, careerwise.

Dear Nomad,

Their initial reply was in ten days, and it was that the book had merit but flaws. We exchanged three more e-mails. His final response was that the other reader would get back to me soon. He also said he was going to review some chapters to see how they handled a certain facet of the story and would get back to me soon. He even wrote me back twice coaching me through what kind of synopsis he wanted. (I had sent him a one-page synopsis) This all within ten days.

Then I asked what might be up in the same time reference they originally got back to me in--no reply at all, two weeks after that another request for an update--no reply at all. Two weeks after that, I made one last attempt to contact them, no reply at all. This was to the editor's private e-mail, mind you. Did he wind up taking a ten week vacation, from which he had returned the very evening I sent the withdrawal. The reply on the withdrawal came in fifteen minutes, mind you, from the notification of withdrawal. How could they be more competitive? They could answer the e-mail for starters, especially when they have chosen to engage in a correspndence on their private e-mail account.

He could have replied to any of those e-mails and given me a better definition of 'soon.' He didn't. I am supposed to consider that to be anything but indifferent?

I chose to not submit anywhere that advertised a submission time of more than four months. I made that decision consciously.

Regards,
Scott
 

Lauri B

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Popeyesays said:
I chose to not submit anywhere that advertised a submission time of more than four months. I made that decision consciously.

Do you mean from time of submission to publication, or time of response? I agree that waiting four months for an answer is a long time. But it's really, really quick to go from submission to printed book in 4 months.
 

Popeyesays

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Response, not publication.

They want to take a year or eighteen months to properly deal with the release that's fine with me.

This other pub was not a major commercial publisher, they were primarily an e-pub house. I'd rather be ink on paper, than bits in magnetic storage.
 

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And perhaps the end of the issue?

As a final point to this debate that is only a repeat of other times the same issues have been gone over regarding micro/small presses or self publishing...

I submitted to a number of larger publishers--no bite.
Agents--nibbles only

So rather than self publish and I debated it--I took the offer from Breakneck to publish my book. The plot is somewhat obscure (christian / hard core action, science fiction) and rather than let it die, I went with Breakneck Books. Reasoning--its better (for me) to take a chance on a small/micro press than none at all. Some may disagree, but its my book, my choice. That's what I've done and I'm completely happy about that decision...I think Breakneck Books has done an excellent job so far and a fine product will soon hit the marketplace. Whether anybody likes the book is another matter and has nothing to do with my publisher, your publisher or anything else besides the story. I'll take my chances.

My eyes are wide open and I know what to expect. Anyone else going with the small/ micro press route of publishing should go in eyes open as well and know what to expect.

Lastly, I think all of this information and understanding was already given on Breakneck's FAQ page. They are very up front about what they can and can't do and where there books will be sold. No one has been deceived about anything so no one can complain if they go with them--of course BNB has to make you the offer first, don't they and most subs (from what I have been told) have not been accepted for publication.

Weigh the options---choose for yourself.

--James
 

maestrowork

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james1611 said:
I submitted to a number of larger publishers--no bite.
Agents--nibbles only

Define "number," James. When did you conclude that you would never, EVER find an agent or publisher?

Otherwise, as long as you know what you're getting into and what you're going to get out of it, it's fine. As I always say, reach for the stars but keep your feet firmly on the ground, and there are many paths to success.
 

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Hear, hear, Maestro. Best of luck to Popeye, Silverhand, and James1611. I hope we hear great things from Breakneck and all of you.
Keep us posted,
Lauri
 

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Defined

maestrowork said:
Define "number," James. When did you conclude that you would never, EVER find an agent or publisher?

Otherwise, as long as you know what you're getting into and what you're going to get out of it, it's fine. As I always say, reach for the stars but keep your feet firmly on the ground, and there are many paths to success.

Number defined as everyone I could find that would take an unsolicited manuscript Agents and Publishers--who published in the genre of sci-fi or christian books. I especially found few that even publish this kind of novel, only one really. I did have a nice manilla folder of rejections, many from agents and Tor rejected, never heard from Baen again, I already had a deal with BNB by the time Wizards of the Coast reopened subs, but its not the kind of novel they publish at all. DAW rejected it and so on.

I do know what to expect, but that doesn't mean that I'm unhappy with my prospects. As the FAQ at BNB shows they do have plans and have to start somewhere to work toward getting returns going and distribution and so forth. I've got two more books to this series and I would be pleased to have them published at BREAKNECK.

I also have another series I am beginning to work on that may hit a little more in the mainstream (sort of a futuristic Bourne Identity with my own twist of course) and I fully plan on submitting it to any and all that will take a look at it. So I've not really resigned myself or my writing to small presses. But with this particular series which is not mainstream (in any stream-Christian or secular) I am quite happy to have it with BNB, and as I've said a number of times in the past--I'm not writing to eat (yet!)

--James
 

David McAfee

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Just chiming in here with my own two cents. I just bought Raising the Past by Jeremy Robinson which is published by Breakneck. After reading the blurb on the website, and then the first two chapters, it sounded like a good story to me.

There is nothing cheaply done about it, it seems very well put together, and four chapters into it there don't seem to be any obvious typos or misspellings, etc, that you would expect to find with poor editing (although I have been known to miss typos from time to time). All in all, I'm very pleased with the purchase.

Oh, and so far it's a pretty good read, too. ;)
 

David McAfee

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David McAfee said:
Just chiming in here with my own two cents. I just bought Raising the Past by Jeremy Robinson which is published by Breakneck. After reading the blurb on the website, and then the first two chapters, it sounded like a good story to me.

There is nothing cheaply done about it, it seems very well put together, and four chapters into it there don't seem to be any obvious typos or misspellings, etc, that you would expect to find with poor editing (although I have been known to miss typos from time to time). All in all, I'm very pleased with the purchase.

Oh, and so far it's a pretty good read, too. ;)

Oops. I lied. found a typo. Page 41, "check" instead of "cheek."
 

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Just reviewed this book

David McAfee said:
Oops. I lied. found a typo. Page 41, "check" instead of "cheek."

Dave,

Hello, I just reviewed this novel, Raising the Past, from Breakneck Books. It is very nicely put together. Most of all I enjoyed the wonderful story!
I couldn't help but give this one a 10/ 10 because it is edge-of-your-seat all the way. The book went away from what I was expecting the story to be about. I zoomed through it in a weekend and was very pleased. I've been pleased with several very good books from small publishers, like Velluminous Press' Miss Alice Merriwether's Long Lost Cakes, also given a nice review at Pod-dy Mouth, and Golem by Greg Vilk, another Pod-dy Mouth needle award finalist last year and more recently R.W. Ridley's The Takers: Book One of the Oz Chronicles.

All of these were small press or self published and were excellent, but they all had minor spelling errors. some more than others. I would note however, that I've seen similar things in happen in books from larger Publishers as well. So, who knows.

P.