I haven't read any Rushdie so not exactly sure what you mean. I'll be receiving an eReader tomorrow so should find I can read a lot more as I'll always have it with me. Which do you recommend?
Why does my prof consider 'Fantasy' to be crap? - Discussion
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I haven't read any Rushdie so not exactly sure what you mean. I'll be receiving an eReader tomorrow so should find I can read a lot more as I'll always have it with me. Which do you recommend?
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I know a lot of people have complained (and often rightfully so) about their experiences with academics, but I have to say, I'm actually quite glad I took the creative writing courses I did while in university. I got EXTREMELY lucky and over the course of three years managed to have to have two professors who were extremely supportive of my writing and it didn't phase them at all that I did "genre writing." I was, as to be expected, the only one in my classes even interested in the stuff, but they didn't hold it against me.
One of the professors even laid out her agenda very clearly at the start of the year. She said that she was going to try and help the students to become better at what they WANTED to write, not what they felt they SHOULD be writing. On the whole I learned a lot of things about writing in general during those classes, and I found it helpful that my professor was willing to look at my work in an academic light, with a critical, academic eye... just without the snobbery.
I would have to say personally that while it's true creative writing classes may be difficult for people interested in writing science fiction or fantasy, they can also be INCREDIBLY helpful if you have a prof who doesn't harbor a grudge against those genres.
One of the professors even laid out her agenda very clearly at the start of the year. She said that she was going to try and help the students to become better at what they WANTED to write, not what they felt they SHOULD be writing. On the whole I learned a lot of things about writing in general during those classes, and I found it helpful that my professor was willing to look at my work in an academic light, with a critical, academic eye... just without the snobbery.
I would have to say personally that while it's true creative writing classes may be difficult for people interested in writing science fiction or fantasy, they can also be INCREDIBLY helpful if you have a prof who doesn't harbor a grudge against those genres.
Those who can, do.
Those who can't, teach.
I'm not dismissing all teachers, because there have been some who influenced me greatly, but the old saying is useful to remember when you are faced with an asshole who can't see past their own preferences. The dismissal of an entire genre is inexcusable from anyone, but coming from someone who is in a position of authority it is dangerous thinking.
Those who can't, teach.
I'm not dismissing all teachers, because there have been some who influenced me greatly, but the old saying is useful to remember when you are faced with an asshole who can't see past their own preferences. The dismissal of an entire genre is inexcusable from anyone, but coming from someone who is in a position of authority it is dangerous thinking.
I spoke with the creative writing instructors at the university I'm going to attend, and mentioned that I wanted to be a novelist. They basically told me I wasn't welcome in their program, and that they had nothing to offer me. Keep in mind, I didn't say "Fantasy Novelist," I said, "Novelist." Still, they had nothing for me.
So I'm majoring in communications instead.
(Sort of a giant leap from my original computer science degree, but whatever.)
I don't think I've ever met someone with a creative writing degree who actually made a living writing. This species must exist, but... how common are they compared to the writers who have some other degree?
To be totally honest I don't feel as though I have learnt anything in the creative writing module. I have surprised myself and enjoyed the other modules but after reading a few 'How to' books there's nothing that the lecturers have taught me that I hadn't already picked up in those books. The other problem is that we're expected to critique each others work however, non of us have had the skills to do it. The one workshop I learnt the most was when I volunteered my weekly work to be critiqued by the lecturer himself. Everyone was patting me on the back after the workshop as he'd ripped the work apart and taken no prisoners but I actually learnt a lot from that 30 minute critique. No one else seems to have that skill or are too polite to say their thoughts on my work. Although the same can be said of me, I just can't see anything wrong with their work other than typos.
Why did they not want you? Surely the novelist is the aim of 80 percent of those attending a creative writing program?
I think because it had a cult fanbase, rather than being widely popular. Probably a little anti-sci-fi snobbery there too.
The example paper he gave us was Thelma and Louise.
Here are some thoughts to ponder. Teachers in every subject have their quirks, their likes and dislikes.
I know many college profs, and a fair number of them love fantasy, and even have fantasy displays lining their offices, everything from Lord of the Rings to Star Wars.
Fantasy/Sci Fi- People tend to love it or hate it to begin with. I'm sure that's in all areas of life. When I went through college I had to take required courses with teachers I disliked, disagreed with, and wished would get kicked out of academia. Still, it's about getting through and not about changing the collegiate world.
At least a third of my profs were stubborn and arrogant people, meaning they were never going to change. They would screw you for demeaning them and their sacred point of view, and they're no less sanctimonious with their fellow teachers. So, it doesn't really pay to take them on in a fight. If you read about Tolkien, he discusses the constant war between the Lit and Lang departments. They had two different worldviews. And editors constantly tried to correct Tolkien, because of some bias towards words "Dwarfs/Dwarves"
I once had a conversation with a group of agents. Very few would even consider rep for fantasy, because they admitted they didn't understand it. They didn't read it.
However, if you look at the top movies of all time- if you remove "Titanic"- the rest have a sci-fi or fantasy element. Even Pirates of the Carribean is mostly fantastical.
I know many college profs, and a fair number of them love fantasy, and even have fantasy displays lining their offices, everything from Lord of the Rings to Star Wars.
Fantasy/Sci Fi- People tend to love it or hate it to begin with. I'm sure that's in all areas of life. When I went through college I had to take required courses with teachers I disliked, disagreed with, and wished would get kicked out of academia. Still, it's about getting through and not about changing the collegiate world.
At least a third of my profs were stubborn and arrogant people, meaning they were never going to change. They would screw you for demeaning them and their sacred point of view, and they're no less sanctimonious with their fellow teachers. So, it doesn't really pay to take them on in a fight. If you read about Tolkien, he discusses the constant war between the Lit and Lang departments. They had two different worldviews. And editors constantly tried to correct Tolkien, because of some bias towards words "Dwarfs/Dwarves"
I once had a conversation with a group of agents. Very few would even consider rep for fantasy, because they admitted they didn't understand it. They didn't read it.
However, if you look at the top movies of all time- if you remove "Titanic"- the rest have a sci-fi or fantasy element. Even Pirates of the Carribean is mostly fantastical.
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You have to research a creative writing course before you take it. You look at what the instructors write, do any of them write commercial fiction, who are they published by? Many are specifically aimed that producing literary writersa in a certain tradition, that is what they do. If that isn't what you want then you are simply in the wrong place.
I think that complaining about one stereotype about fantasy being crap while appealling to another (about "academics") is somewhat ironic. I think it is more that fantasy is not what they do, you have taken your horse to the mechanic and he can't help you. He might not even be all that sympathetic about your mistake.
I think that complaining about one stereotype about fantasy being crap while appealling to another (about "academics") is somewhat ironic. I think it is more that fantasy is not what they do, you have taken your horse to the mechanic and he can't help you. He might not even be all that sympathetic about your mistake.
Rushdie's work can usually be described as literary with a fantastical bent, or magical realism. I'd recommend MIDNIGHT'S CHILDREN and THE SATANIC VERSES. He won the Man Booker award for MIDNIGHT'S CHILDREN years ago and the Booker really doesn't do genre. When they ran the 'Best of the Booker', he won it as the best of all the previous winners.
Cormac McCarthy's THE ROAD can be considered a post-apocalyptic novel, except people freaked out when that was suggested because Cormac McCarthy was a literary writer and would never write anything like genre. Sigh.
Liosse de Velishaf
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The topic itself has been discussed pretty well. But I thought I'd add my two cents anyway. I'm majoring in linguistics in college, instead of say, lit or creative writing. Not becuse I think all academia is biased or pretentious. Certainly, my writing instructors in highschool were all for my "genre" work when it fit the guidelines. I turned in scads of fantasy and sci-fi pieces. But I really despised all the assignments where I had to turn in something "literary". Hated 'em. Skipped a few even. But I kept in mind that my goal was to pass the courses, and I never got lower than a B. Some of the courses were supposed to be college equivalent, or at least, college freshman equivalent. Now, as much as I liked my teachers, the sort of writing the class was supposed to emphasize was not the sort of writing I do on my own. So I'm not taking any of those sort of courses in college(uni) if I don't have to. I'm sure my college professors are willing to accept any piece of writting that fits the rules of the particular assignment. From my experience, it's the students that I'll have trouble with. Okay, done rambling.
I think I'm an academic or well on my way and all I have to say is that there is crap in any genre from any number of points of view. Right now, fantasy is very popular which makes it an easy target. But other genres in the past have taken hits from the academic elite -- mystery, horror, romance. The stigma's strong enough or its perceived to be strong enough that certain writers (like Goodkind, for example) have denied they write "fantasy" novels.
My personal experience as an English major and MFA student has been more open than others I've heard about. But I like to read widely and as oddly as possible -- imo there's some shit in fantasy, no doubt, that other people like and there's stuff I find amazing that the critics don't like at all (Bleak Seasons by Glen Cook).
AMC
My personal experience as an English major and MFA student has been more open than others I've heard about. But I like to read widely and as oddly as possible -- imo there's some shit in fantasy, no doubt, that other people like and there's stuff I find amazing that the critics don't like at all (Bleak Seasons by Glen Cook).
AMC
Thought experiment time:
1) Fantasy/Sci-Fi is written off because anything can happen, making the plots easy to write.
2) Fantasy/Sci-Fi is often plot driven and not character driven. The lack of balance towards character-driven works make it easier to write off as another plot-driven story.
3) Fantasy/Sci-Fi can also be intensive in non-standard or synthesised vocabulary, which makes it less a story and more a history.
Just some ganders as to their reasons.
1) Fantasy/Sci-Fi is written off because anything can happen, making the plots easy to write.
2) Fantasy/Sci-Fi is often plot driven and not character driven. The lack of balance towards character-driven works make it easier to write off as another plot-driven story.
3) Fantasy/Sci-Fi can also be intensive in non-standard or synthesised vocabulary, which makes it less a story and more a history.
Just some ganders as to their reasons.
IrU is right.
Learn what you can, grab your degree, and go.
Genre fiction has always been written in opposition to accepted standards of "literary quality."
Your only mistake was trying to get a degree in it.
Learn what you can, grab your degree, and go.
Genre fiction has always been written in opposition to accepted standards of "literary quality."
Your only mistake was trying to get a degree in it.
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1) I'd vehemently disagree with anyone who said plots for SF/F are easier to write. Then I'd ask them to write a 100k novel, just to prove how simple it is. Yes, almost anything can happen in SF/F, which, to me, makes it even hard to write. Even though we can and do make shit up, there still has to be a reasonable amount of realism available to ground the reader. If the reader doesn't believe people can fly around on sentient dragons, in the context of a fantasy world that is well-created and thought-out, then the author has failed.
Easy? HA!
2) I'd disagree with that one, too. Granted, my current reading habits have landed firmly in the lap of paranormals, but the vast majority of the novels I've finished in the last couple of months have been very character driven. Now, I don't want to start a debate on the differences between the two types of novels (plus, there's a very recent thread somewhere, maybe in Novels? BWQ?), but being character-driven does not exclude the novel from having a strong plot.
3) I'm not quite sure how to address this one, except to say TOLKIEN. He invented languages, for goodness sake. How exactly does that make what he accomplished "easy" in the eyes of anyone?
It's almost funny how some of the reasons one might write off SF/F are the very reasons why it's impossible to dismiss. Writing anything is hard. Writing anything well is even harder.
Writing well in a genre that demands creativity and invention, and that has some of the most critical and loyal fans around? Priceless.
If your going to read the Satanic Verses you really need to know a bit about Islam first, at least reading the Qur'an and something else explaining the times of the Prophet and the Companions. Get an annotated version because a lot of what's going on is pretty difficult to follow unless you understand the exact parts of Islam being referenced. Fun read though.
The main reason why SF/Fantasy are considered bad is that they are mostly bad, cliched dreck. There are diamonds, but it's rare to find them. There are major distinctions within fantasy as well, academics have a massive hardon for Magical Realism. With reason, because good magical realism (Marquez, Kafka, Borges, Rushdie, I guess Gogol can play as well) is inherently creative and in a much more profound way than whatever new elements someone attaches to tropes already thousands of years old for a fantasy story. That said, now that Magical Realism has been established for a while there's plently of stereotypical junk there as well.
The thing is, having a new idea for an element for a science fiction story doesn't neccesarily make your story new or exciting. I wrote a story about sentient warships (cliched) who talked like /b/tards (original) attacking a gigantic whelk (I think a little cliche) in an engagement lasting several years. In terms of narrative, pace or theme it was nothing special.
Bad example. Lord of the Rings is more an exercise in world building than an example of a good story. It is poorly paced and a lot of the characterisation falls flat. Just because the world is (fantastically) complex does not make it a good story. Compare it to Gormenghast, comparatively a much less developed world (do we ever end up knowing where Gormenghast is?) but a better story because of it.
You're really saying this in the wrong forum.
You honestly believe that most - say 70%? - of all published fantasy is dreck? Then you probably think everything I've ever written, ever, is just dripping with dreck. So kiss my pinky ring and go away, thanks.
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Did I say that somehow all other genres were shining beaconsof wonder and glory?
Some of my favorite stories, The 1001 Nights, The Aenied, The Popol Vuh, 100 Years of Solitude, El Zahir, The Writing of God, all are fantasy. I think you're feeling a little too defensive. And yes I am saying that at least 70% of fantasy and sci-fi are cliched abominations.
Every generation or so someone comes along and brings life back into it, but then it stratifies again. I think it was Gibson that did it last, but then cyberpunk got out of control. Fantasy is still under the yoke of Tolkein, who despite everything he wanted has become the standard by which all fantasy is based.
I wouldn't worry about this comment too much, Bart. Because you can replace "SF/Fantasy" with just about any other genre (Literary, Horror, Humor, Romance, Western, whatever) and still find someone who will find a measure of truth in it.
The substance of something, and its categorization as "bad, cliched dreck" is opinion of the person placing it in such a category. One person's dreck is another person's magnum opus.
But yeah, Kurtz, maybe you shouldn't go around denigrating a genre in its home forum. SF/F is bashed enough elsewhere, as it is, thanks.
Liosse de Velishaf
Banned
Tolkein is the standard on which all fantasy is based? What decade are you living in? Maybe if all you read of the genre is Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance, I guess. 
I'll agree that a lot of writing in all genres is dreck. I would't put the figure as high as 70%, but it'd be high.
I'll agree that a lot of writing in all genres is dreck. I would't put the figure as high as 70%, but it'd be high.
I'm speaking from a UK perspective here, but there are university courses in SF and fantasy and academics who teach them. Many of our leading genre critics are academics in their day jobs - Edward James, Farah Mendlesohn, Adam Roberts for example. The last-named is also a sf/fantasy fiction writer.
I did my English degree over twenty years ago (graduated in 1987) and Philip K. Dick was included in the Modern Literature unit.
I've been a reader of SF and fantasy on and off since childhood. I also read "mainstream" fiction. Yes, there is a lot of derivative junk in the genre - but there is plenty that rewards a deeper study too.
I did my English degree over twenty years ago (graduated in 1987) and Philip K. Dick was included in the Modern Literature unit.
I've been a reader of SF and fantasy on and off since childhood. I also read "mainstream" fiction. Yes, there is a lot of derivative junk in the genre - but there is plenty that rewards a deeper study too.
Except I mention 7 authors who have written fantasy books, (although none would like the label 'fantasy authors' and a further 7 stories that are more fantasy than anything. I enjoy some science fiction (mostly in cinema as opposed to literature, although McCarthy, Dick, Vonnegut and Lem all kick ass).
The majority of high fantasy is still predominantly set in a highly romanticised version of the middle ages with various humanoid races and various mythical beasts (some of the authors own creation). Traditionally it comes down to a cataclysmic battle with ultimate evil, with characters echoing (often merely reflecting) ancient hero stereotypes. I hear A Song of Ice and Fire is the cutting edge of modern fantasy, and despite having less elves (still dragons though) and magic it's still very much in Tolkeins mould. A little bit more naieve misunderstandings over what caused the Wars of the Roses crammed in as well.
This is Tolkien's influence, you would be suprised how much fantasy varied before he did. In fact its fair to say he invented High Fantasy, which is now what everyone thinks about when they hear the word fantasy. In fact books like The Crying of Lot 49 and Foucalt's Pendulum are still fantasies.
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Except that the comment has to imply spec fic has disproportionate amounts of dreck. If it has the same amount of dreck as any genre why would it be worth commenting on?
[sarcasm]Ursula le Guin, Octavia Butler, Asimov, what a hacks. [/sarcasm]
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