Read Books By AWers!

Welcome to the AbsoluteWrite Water Cooler! Please read The Newbie Guide To Absolute Write

editing for authors ad

A publisher or agency using Google ads to solicit your novel probably isn't anyone you want to write for.


Go Back   Absolute Write Water Cooler > Discussion > Bewares, Recommendations & Background Check
Register FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-15-2013, 11:49 PM   #1
JL_Benet
writer/teacher
 
JL_Benet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 201
JL_Benet is on a distinguished road
Horrified Press

They are a new small press specializing in Horror.
http://horrifiedpress.wordpress.com/
https://www.facebook.com/horrified.press

A discussion regarding payments to authors:
https://www.facebook.com/horrified.p...52780204893094
__________________
J.L. Benet
Wolf Hunter - now out from Belfire Press.
JL_Benet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2013, 11:08 AM   #2
eternalised
practical experience, FTW
 
eternalised's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 550
eternalised has a spectacular auraeternalised has a spectacular aura
The Facebook Link doesn't work. Too bad, because I would've liked to read that discussion. Maybe they deleted it?
__________________
Visit my website.


eternalised is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2013, 01:54 PM   #3
nkkingston
Bemused Girl
 
nkkingston's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,102
nkkingston is a shiny, shiny jewelnkkingston is a shiny, shiny jewel
It's currently makes up the top few posts on their facebook page, but if the page is active it'll disappear fairly fast, so I'll C&P it.

Quote:
You know, it's a tough road to follow, becoming a writer. It can change us along the way too. It can empower us, sometimes make us bitter, even bring us to the edge of losing our minds! Those that come through it are the lucky ones, that don't fall by the wayside and continue on their path. Faith has a lot to do with it. Talent, obviously, but not all talented authors find that their gift was once a natural one. It takes hard work, dedication, stubbornness, will power and an overwhelming belief in what you are trying to achieve. Some will say you are no good, try to deter you, while other people will encourage you in your dreams and help make them a reality. It's those people which you will appreciate the most, but criticism can also be good; a useful learning experience if you care to listen to what others have to say. The opinions of others will be varied over your career, and not all of those opinions on your work will be gospel truth. In the end, you only have yourself to rely on, to make informed choices about your journey. Helping hands are good, and it pays to not be overly suspicious of those who offer them. We all wish for good things in our lives, for ourselves, our work and those we represent in our profession. In the end, only time will tell where your personal road will lead you... In the end, we can but hope to reap what we sow.
This is followed by six comments. Three 'yay's, two 'pay me's and Horrified's response of 'lol'. I don't know if this is the debate referenced above, or whether stuff has since been deleted.

Actually, rather than C&P another chunk, the second fb post is also available on the Horrified website.
__________________

Hungry? Check out my other half's blog Colonel Mustard in the Kitchen.

Last edited by nkkingston; 04-16-2013 at 02:20 PM.
nkkingston is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2013, 02:19 PM   #4
nkkingston
Bemused Girl
 
nkkingston's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,102
nkkingston is a shiny, shiny jewelnkkingston is a shiny, shiny jewel
I can't see anything that really recommends this press.

- Appears to be a one man operation. There's plenty of evidence scattered around these boards as to why that's a bad idea.
- Several of the press's books are his own. Also not good, especially where funds are limited.
- Odds of getting paid seem pretty damn low. If you're in an anthology and have to sell 150 ebooks to see any money, assuming that 60% is based on net where the only deduction is the retailer's cut, you'll be looking at as little as $21 per person (based on a $3 book, 70% from Amazon, 60% of that distributed between 9 authors). A lot of places will pay more than that as a flat rate for short stories up front.
- Free website with no buy links. That's not going to help sales.
- Several of the books don't appear to have a rank on Amazon, which suggests they haven't sold any copies (though Amazon has been fiddling about with the system since February, so I don't know if sales since then are being reflected), and those that do have ranks in the high hundreds of thousands.

In the name of balance:
- Covers are pretty good.
- Prices are reasonable, and most of the books do appear to have sold at least a few copies.

My instinct is that this is a self-publishing venture that's expanded into anthologies. That's rarely a good sign.
__________________

Hungry? Check out my other half's blog Colonel Mustard in the Kitchen.
nkkingston is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2013, 06:42 PM   #5
veinglory
volitare nequeo
AW Moderator
 
veinglory's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: right here
Posts: 26,220
veinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
For a press this size, no money from the first 100 sales is a bit of an issue IMHO.
__________________
veinglory is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2013, 09:48 PM   #6
JL_Benet
writer/teacher
 
JL_Benet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 201
JL_Benet is on a distinguished road
Yes, it does look like they have changed today so they do actually pay their authors something. This is the conversation that was linked above:
Quote:
Geoff Brownposted toHorrified Press

Sunday near Bendigo, Victoria

No payments for ANY of your open submission calls?
Why not?
Quote:
  • Horrified Press New press, Geoff. At present, we offer exposure to our authors only.
    Sunday at 5:02am · Like

  • Horrified Press To add, I've had over fifty of my own stories published for exposure by various presses (Nathan J.D.L. Rowark). Including this one, and my thanks to 'Dark Dreams' for the opportunity to exhibit my work, and for their tireless editing work in producing this great program on my behalf... http://darkdreamspodcast.blogspot.co.ukDARK DREAMS PODCAST
    darkdreamspodcast.blogspot.com





    Sunday at 5:10am · Like · 1

  • Geoff Brown But what about contributor copies? And potential royalties if the books sell well? That's always an option.
    Sunday at 5:11am · Like · 1

  • Horrified Press Absolutely, and if this is the case, if there are major sales negotiated and achieved, authors will receive a part of that sum in the form of a non-contractual bonus. But I don't like to promise to people that which doesn't exist.
    Sunday at 5:15am · Like

  • Geoff Brown But if it's non-contractual, you are not held to it. Wouldn't it be better to, say, have a section of the contract that says something like, "If sales are more than X, then we will pay all writers Y% of the profits"?
    It's not promising anything which doesn't exist, it just states a potentiality.
    That way, if sales cover your initial costs (X), then you can start to profit share?
    Sunday at 5:18am · Like · 2

  • Geoff Brown Okay, let's assume that you are looking at moving up to paid submissions at some time.
    Let's move on to a query about who is doing your editing?
    Are you the editor for Horrified?
    If so, what qualifications and experience do you have?
    I ask this because there are many new presses out there that have no editing experience at all, and end up putting out low-grade stuff that just works against their writers.
    Sunday at 5:26am · Like · 1

  • Horrified Press Geoff, I appreciate your comments and always like to answer questions put to me. I understand that there are many small presses that turn out work that, as you say, may be of low grade quality. I've worked extremely hard on my own personal writing career, and have had over fifty stories published (to date). I am confident of my editing abilities, and only took the decision to represent others when I felt I was at a stage where I could do so. Why don't you check out one of our titles, Geoff? Please feel free to listen to the free podcast I have just submitted to 'Dark Dreams', or perhaps you would like to check out my last novel which was serialized in 'Schlock Webzine'? The last comment I had on the anthologies we are producing was from a member of staff in a bookstore chain which we are hoping to stock. They praised me for the layout, design and editing of both titles. Thanks
    Sunday at 5:39am · Edited · Like

  • Geoff Brown Please understand, I'm not trying to be nasty or fractious here. I am just curious.
    Do you have any training in editing?
    Your fifty stories have all been through 'for the love' markets? Are there any paid markets you've been accepted by?
    I applaud your publishing history, but it always worries me to see people claim to be able to edit without any formal training.
    Sunday at 5:41am · Like · 2

  • Horrified Press I understand, Geoff. I hope we can be friends, after this I have been paid for my work before, yes.
    Sunday at 5:44am · Like

  • Geoff Brown I have nothing against you at all. I am just trying to further my understanding of your market. As president of the Australian Horror Writers Association, I try to keep an eye on new markets to recommend either for or against them.
    Sunday at 5:45am · Like · 2

  • Horrified Press That's fair enough, Geoff. It would be great if you did recommend us further down the line.
    Sunday at 5:47am · Like

  • Geoff Brown At this point, I can't say one way or the other until I can have a longer look.
    I will have a look at the previews of your releases on Amazon, and take it from there.
    Thanks for the reasonable conversation.
    Sunday at 5:48am · Like · 1

  • Geoff Brown Although I really can't recommend you until you make at least token payments or royalties.
    Sunday at 5:49am · Like

  • Geoff Brown And I have to assume, from your lack of an answer, that you have no formal training in editing. That is not necessarily bad, as I know a few 'trained' editors who aren't that good, and a few natural editors who are very good. Again, I'll withhold an opinion until I can check out your releases.
    Sunday at 5:52am · Like

  • Horrified Press Thanks, Geoff. Believe me, no-one thinks these writers should be paid more than me, and I look forward to the day when this can be possible. For now, I do give each author a full page for their bio in the print editions of our anthologies, and I hope that bigger publications check these books out and can offer them more based on their work for us.
    Regards, Nathan
    Sunday at 6:00am · Like · 1

  • Geoff Brown If you choose well, and the works are well-edited, then it IS going to help them.
    Sunday at 6:01am · Like · 1

  • Geoff Brown Of course, there is always the other side of that coin...
    Sunday at 6:02am · Like

  • Todd Banks I look forward to your publications. As an Editor myself, no formal training, I know how hard it can be to just start out in this business. Let me know if I can be of any assistance to you.
    Sunday at 7:39am via mobile · Like · 3

  • George C. Cotronis So...why not royalties?
    Sunday at 11:23am · Like · 2

  • Horrified Press Hi George. At present, all sales after print costs are going into marketing the books we produce and to cover running costs. I run 'Horrified Press' because I love horror. I do not receive payment for my editing services, graphic design services, distribution services, etc. Once we have successfully put our titles on the shelves of large bookstore chains and they begin to sell in greater volume, the authors in those books would of course receive a share of that profit. I offer total transparency in the workings of 'Horrified Press', and any of the authors involved with our projects will confirm this.
    Sunday at 12:40pm · Like · 2

  • Horrified Press Thanks for the support, Todd. Kinda feel like I'm having to justify myself a lot today. I often work eight hour days editing these books, for free. I'm trying hard not to take offense to the way I've been spoken to, and to take it on the chin as heated debate. Oh well, such is life. I know there are quite a few bad eggs around, in terms of small presses. Puts everyone on edge, I guess. Thanks for your kind words.
    Sunday at 12:45pm · Like · 1

  • George C. Cotronis Yeah, thanks Todd.
    Sunday at 12:49pm · Like

  • Horrified Press Hi Robert, I understand the worries that Geoff and George have expressed, and when I say all proceeds are going towards the marketing and running of 'Horrified Press' at this stage, I really mean all. At present, we give contributors a full page for their bios in the print copies of our anthologies. They also receive a final proof of their work, as laid out in the publication they have been accepted for.When I say exposure, I mean it. We have also run Goodreads paid campaigns to market titles and I have had to order and pay for several sets of samples, so that we have something tangible for up-coming meetings with bookstores and distributors. I spent this week making sure the supply chain is in place so that we can supply said book chains. It's a lot of work, but I stand by these authors, their works and my own. I wouldn't plaster my name and reputation across the front of them if I didn't. Thanks for your post, Robert.
    Sunday at 1:53pm · Edited · Like · 1

  • Robert Holtgrewe I admire you for taken the time to answer these posts. I could see a lot of people/publishers deleting them off their wall the instant they get posted.

    I was not suggesting that you were withholding, I wanted to offer Kirk's way as I thought it an ingenious way to bridge the gap of token and 4love. The e-book idea in particular, eliminating nearly all costs.
    Sunday at 1:58pm via mobile · Like · 2

  • Horrified Press Well, for what it's worth, we make them cheap. The e-book editions are just $3 (£2). All contributors receive a copy of their work as laid out in our books, anyway. Not a bad price for the chance to read over 20 works from authors around the world. I'll also make sure that, whatever deal is struck down the line, these e-book editions remain this affordable. When I received the initial post from Geoff, this morning, it never occurred to me to delete it, actually. Good point though, lol. I have nothing to hide, Robert, but as writers we have everything to gain by working together and making things happen. I'll do my best to get our books into bigger distribution circles, now and on-going. Fingers crossed.
    Sunday at 2:04pm · Like · 1

  • Geoff Brown I still come back to one of my original points, and that is royalties. It doesn't hurt to offer royalties once a certain point is reached.
    Writers deserve to get paid. Writing is work.
    And Todd, I did say this just above:
    "That is not necessarily bad, as I know a few 'trained' editors who aren't that good, and a few natural editors who are very good. Again, I'll withhold an opinion until I can check out your releases."
    Sunday at 2:07pm · Edited · Like · 2

  • Horrified Press Editors deserve to get paid too, Geoff. And I have also submitted my own work to the anthologies. The same stands for me as our contributors, at present. I will work to change this by pushing these books into stores. I have been very clear and honest with those who have written for us, in terms of what they will receive for their work. If we reached a large amount of sales for our books, I could review the situation, yet you don't seem to be interested in making that a reality. Why don't you help us to bring awareness of these titles to a larger audience overseas, Geoff? Doesn't your position give you the power to do that? To criticize someone who is working non-stop from the ground up is easy. Extending a friendly hand to help them and their authors achieve their goal of turning 'Horrified Press' into a paying market is hard. This is why I am not a member of any association. I agree with a majority of the principles you uphold, yet don't enjoy the idea of a single person having presidency over my favorite genre. It belongs to the writers and the fans, and is not for any one person to preside over in judgement. That's my honest feelings on the matter.
    Sunday at 2:34pm · Like

  • Horrified Press To add, why do you think that non-paying markets almost don't count, anyway? I have been published by Schlock Webzine, Dark Moon Books, Scarlett River Press, Dark Gothic Resurrected Magazine, Kind of a Hurricane Press, The Horror Zine, Static Movement Press, etc. These are all good people and I am proud to be in their books. They didn't need to pay me, that's not why I write.
    Sunday at 2:42pm · Edited · Like · 1

  • Adrian Chamberlin This is an age-old argument. Writers should choose their markets carefully, but not all non-paying gigs are bad. Two anthologies I'm most proud of were non-paying (I hate the term 'for the luv'. Static Press's Monk Punk is the first of its kind, introducing a new brand of speculative fiction to the market place, and Read The End First has received some very good press. These days, I'll only sub to markets that pay, but I don't regret my appearances in the above anthologies. Perhaps the most balanced argument I've seen comes here: http://traciemcbridewriter.wordpress...ary-viewpoint/Free fiction: A contrary viewpoint
    traciemcbridewriter.wordpress.comRecently I came across this blog post which posits the theory that anyone who re...See More







    Sunday at 2:48pm · Like · 2

  • Horrified Press Hi Adrian. That's a great post. I've written work for exposure, to add to my personal C.V (Nathan J.D.L. Rowark) and for charity. All are good reasons, I feel An author will seldom make a living from small payments of $5-10 dollars, anyway. It's being spotted and poached by bigger concerns that puts you in that category. I would like to think that later 'Horrified Press' could be one of those bigger concerns, yet the road is long. I think, with so many markets closing due to the recession, new ones should only be encouraged. Amongst the writers we have in our anthologies are first time writers that are just beginning to learn their craft. I give them all the support I can, and am equally proud to have their stories in our books.
    Sunday at 3:07pm · Like

  • Adrian Chamberlin Little acorns = mighty oaks. We all have to start somewhere.
    Sunday at 3:14pm · Like · 2

  • Horrified Press Wow. That's exactly what my departed mother used to say, and I have been saying all along
    Sunday at 3:20pm · Like · 1

  • Horrified Press 'From small acorns, big oak trees grow' was her exact phrasing. The other one that seems to be resonating with me right now is 'Rome wasn't built in a day', another favorite of hers. She loved horror. It would have been great for her to see what, as writers, we've managed to achieve collectively, so far. Oh well, that's life, as they say
    Sunday at 3:24pm · Edited · Like · 3

  • Geoff Brown Again, the desire to pay is likely more important than the ability to pay straight away. An ebook version for contributors and a contracted percentage of sales is coming out of no-one's pocket.

    As to all monies going to promotion and marketing, what are you actually doing that is costing money? I have only ever seen Horrified Press here on Facebook.
    Are you putting adverts in genre mags, or on websites where readers are sure to see them?

    Are you actually getting the authors some exposure?

    Tracie McBride stated, at the end of that article, that she only goes with points 3 and 4, as do I.

    At the beginning of my writing career, I gave away three stories. For exposure.
    It was to a free series on a website of a small, start-up publisher, but when they started up they also paid authors royalties for print books. I have my first novel-length piece still with them, and I am getting good royalties from them. They took the risk on my after I took the risk on them, and it paid off for us both.

    They have great editing, great cover art and promotion, and are great to work with.

    They also have name writers published through them because they pay.

    If you want to give authors exposure, the best way is to attract already-published-with-a-fan-base authors, and you won't get them without offering something in return.

    I also gave away a reprint to a small press just like you. I got no promotion from them, and it has led to exactly nothing, so I'm glad it was only a reprint.

    Last year, I gave away a tale to a charity anthology, and the small press that did it attracted names like Jack Ketchum, Joe Lansdale and F. Paul Wilson. That book is now up for a Stoker Award. Now THAT is exposure.
    They have great editing and great cover art.
    Can you say the same? I looked at your covers and found them lacking, yet covers are what teases a customer to then look closer at the book.

    Who does your covers?

    I don't mind 'exposure' markets that actually GIVE you exposure. Markets that are willing to risk their own money to get professional editing, layout, and cover design. You're not risking anything, by the sound of it. You are taking stories from writers and only putting money earned from those stories back into the business. In effect, you are using the income from other's work (as well as your own, granted) to then build a company.

    Like I said, if you were to offer free ebooks to contributors and a share of sales to compensate them, then I would happily get behind your company and put out the word, but as long as you are sitting there and trying to tell me that the only thing you are putting in is time, then I think it's not enough.

    We all put in time.
    Sunday at 8:03pm · Like · 2

  • Geoff Brown I run an editing company. I put money, thousands of dollars, into it, to give me the ability to run it professionally. I didn't look for clients and tell them they need to accept lower-standard work until I can afford to do better.
    Publishers should be the same.
    You believe in Horrified Press? Fine. Show us by taking a risk.
    Sunday at 8:06pm · Like · 2

  • Geoff Brown And finally, acorns need to send out roots, and in this case it is paying authors something.
    And if the people who built Rome didn't get paid, it would have been slavery.
    Sunday at 8:16pm · Edited · Like · 1

  • Geoff Brown Here's another alternate view.
    http://www.alanbaxteronline.com/roya...-exploitation/Royalty-only anthologies and writer exploitation – The Word – According To Me | Alan Baxter – Warrio
    www.alanbaxteronline.comAuthor Alan Baxter on himself, his writing and the work of others






    Sunday at 8:38pm · Like

  • Geoff Brown Personally, I think that royalties and contributor's copy is fine.
    Yesterday at 12:47am · Like

  • Geoff Brown Whatever, dude. I kept it civil until you started to be facetious and to avoid the questions I asked.
    You should get your facts right, too, but I won't be enlightening you on what you have wrong.

    I would never support someone so blatantly unprofessional as you are showing yourself to be.
    And forward away. It's not like I'd ever sub to any of the unpaid markets you're so proud of knowing and subbing to.
    And you really have no idea what you're talking about. I pay my own Internet connection, and all I did was ask some questions which you have spent this entire thread avoiding.

    When you become a REAL publisher, try again.
    Yesterday at 4:55am · Like · 1

  • Geoff Brown Oh, and I like to keep an eye on up-and-coming presses, just so I can warn AHWA members away from them.
    It's part of the job, really.
    Yesterday at 4:57am · Like

  • Horrified Press Continually offensive and still avoiding the questions I have previously asked. If you had been more professional, as you should be in your position, you would have taken me up on my offer to promote our books. Then, when sales increased I could have given our writers equal share payments and would have written off my editing services for free. Great and powerful Oz? I very much doubt it.
    Yesterday at 5:03am · Edited · Like

  • Geoff Brown And please, STOP LIKING YOUR OWN COMMENTS! It's nearly as bad as standing in front of a mirror and high-fiving yourself. lol
    Yesterday at 4:58am · Like

  • Geoff Brown HA! You telling me who I should promote? I wouldn't promote you if you paid me. And your record for paying people isn't great, is it?
    Yesterday at 4:59am · Like

  • Horrified Press Since I am not part of your association, and therefore not under your representation, I shall do what I like. As for paying people, all payments that come in to my business are through print-on demand services. I wouldn't be able to cheat anyone if I wanted to, which I wouldn't anyway. So your point is? Any excuse to shy away from the real responsibilities of your job, which is to encourage new avenues for writers to become published in and help safeguard ALL concerned.
    Yesterday at 5:03am · Like

  • Geoff Brown I encourage safe and reliable avenues.
    And my point is that you still refuse to even consider basic or token payments.
    Change that and you will win many more friends.
    See ya!
    Yesterday at 5:05am · Like · 1

  • Geoff Brown Um, the fee you get from editing is A PUBLISHING COMPANY! Herp-derp.
    You really don't get it, do you?
    Let me put it in simple terms.
    Three words.

    1) PUBLISHERS
    2) PAY
    3) WRITERS

    It might be royalties and a copy of the book.

    It might be a token payment and/or a copy of the book.
    It SHOULD be both.

    Nothing just doesn't cut it.
    If you were serious, you'd have something in your contracts about payment once a particular sales figure was achieved.
    You know that. I know that.
    Members of the HWA know that.


    Yesterday at 5:20am · Like · 1

  • Horrified Press The reason this hasn't been put into contracts up until now is because I don't like to talk about things that haven't happened yet, to get writers hopes up when the market is so volatile. It's cruel to have them expect something that may take months to procure, yet exciting when it happens and they are notified that our hard work has collectively paid off. I don't deal in dreams, Geoff. I deal in facts. I have publicly stated I would pay a non-contractual bonus, in this post and previous ones, when sales of a reasonable amount have been reached to pay them. Giving an author a five dollar handshake is offensive, in my opinion. It says that's all their story is worth. That's not right, and I would be offended by such a thing. So there we have it. I've said my piece, my names splashed across the front of every book we've produced. I can hardly get out of paying such a thing when the time comes (minimum equal share of $50 each), could I, Geoff. I say again, transparency.
    Yesterday at 5:29am · Like

  • Horrified Press Oh, and your childish attempt at sarcasm, when I've been honest and upfront with you, you know, the Publishers Pay Writers thing? That was cute
    Yesterday at 5:32am · Like

  • Geoff Brown Without it in contract, you are under no obligation to pay them anything. That's simple.
    I know that, you know that, and the writers know that.
    Yesterday at 5:33am · Like

  • Horrified Press I am under obligation by reputation, Geoff. I've spent three long and hard years building up my writing reputation. I didn't do that for nothing.
    Yesterday at 5:34am · Like

  • Geoff Brown It might be cute, but it's also a fact. It's a shame that all you think of it is that it's cute.
    lol
    Yesterday at 5:34am · Like

  • Geoff Brown hahahahahahahahahaha... yep.
    Yesterday at 5:34am · Like

  • Geoff Brown No legal obligation, though.
    Yesterday at 5:34am · Like

  • Geoff Brown Your words: "... the Publishers Pay Writers thing? That was cute ."
    Yesterday at 5:42am · Like

  • Horrified Press The way you put it down was sarcastic. I didn't mean the words themselves, Geoff. Come on, you're a writer. Keep up. But you know everything, right? Great comment about our book covers being substandard, when I've already shown them off to a member of staff in a bookstore and they loved it.
    Yesterday at 5:52am · Like

  • Geoff Brown Hearsay, man. Hearsay.
    One person in one bookstore. Allegedly.
    How many copies did they buy for the shelves? Ten? Fifty?

    And really, as a writer, you should know that context is everything. You said the words. Stand by them.
    Yesterday at 5:53am · Like

  • Horrified Press I approached a single store, took the information I needed to reach their head office,then contacted them to arrange a face-to-face meeting. Next, I phoned the Nielsen book database helpdesk to ensure the books were on their system correctly, then spoke to distributors, Gardeners books, and Bertrum books, to make sure the supply chain was in place. Now, I'm just waiting for the meeting date. It's called protocol, Geoff. It takes time. Oh, and your comment of laughter, when I spoke of my own personal reputation, uncalled for. Am I not big enough to be talking to you? Ha! I've been compared to Orwell, Poe, Ginsberg... the list goes on, though, until now, they've never been called in to question. I feel sorry for the members of your society, to be marginalized by such narrow minded elitism. I've earned my credentials through hard work and dedication. Who have you been compared to?
    Yesterday at 6:02am · Like

  • Todd Banks I honestly think that this has gone on for far too long. I'd suggest blocking him and moving on. It seems that this has turned personal for him and he has yet to let it go. If I was a member of either organization, I'd be apalled by his actions and would demand his removal. This is no way to represent any organization.
    Yesterday at 6:02am via mobile · Like

  • Geoff Brown It was always personal for me, Todd. You've known me long enough to know that.
    Nathan is the one who decided to bring in associations.

    Yesterday at 6:03am · Like

  • Horrified Press I agree, Todd. I'm disgusted with his attitude. And I didn't mean to brag in my last post, so unlike me
    Yesterday at 6:03am · Like

  • Horrified Press Let's swing that judgmental pendulm the other way, Geoff. What have you been doing for your members recently? I want positives.
    Yesterday at 6:05am · Like

  • Geoff Brown You compare yourself with those writers? Well, that changes everything, doesn't it.
    (I really need a sarcasm font).
    Yesterday at 6:05am · Like

  • Geoff Brown I've done plenty for the AHWA, champ. Ask any member you like if they are happy with the association since I was elected president.
    Now you're trying ad hominum, I see.
    Yesterday at 6:06am · Like

  • Horrified Press No, Geoff. I have been compared to those writers by other publishers. Jennie Rector of The Horror Zine said my work was reminiscent of Poe, not sure about the other ones... I'll look back over my e-mails and get back to you on those
    Yesterday at 6:07am · Like

  • Geoff Brown Don't bother. I'm sure your breakout moment is only a few months away. Surely I'll hear of you all over the media soon enough.
    Yesterday at 6:08am · Like

  • Horrified Press Got to be honest, Geoff, until now... I'd never heard of you. Besides that, really, why the attitude? I know that my intentions are honorable. If I know that, for a fact, and you deliberately and continually come up against me, it tells me yours are not.
    Yesterday at 6:09am · Like

  • Horrified Press The president of the Australian HWA acting like this... I love the Australians. Gutted. A sad day for the industry.
    Yesterday at 6:11am · Like

  • Geoff Brown You are showing all the signs of another failed small-press taking work from writers with nothing in return.
    That is all I know.
    And believe me, until all this, I had never heard of you, either.

    You may, of course, have heard of the pen-name I write under! lol
    Yesterday at 6:12am · Like · 1

  • Horrified Press Still waiting to hear exact stories of what you've done for your members recently...
    Yesterday at 6:13am · Like

  • Geoff Brown As you're not a member, I don't need to justify any of the good things the AHWA has achieved lately.
    Yesterday at 6:13am · Like

  • Geoff Brown You offer nothing. It's all 'if' and 'non-contractual' and 'alleged love from bookstore personnel'.

    I really hope your writers do well. I do. I have nothing against a single one.
    I also hope that you do live up to your gilded promises to actually pay them one day.
    That would re-affirm my belief in fly-by-night presses.
    Not calling your press that, of course.

    And please, stop referring to the HWA in your posts.
    Learn that there is a difference between the AHWA and the HWA.

    1) NOT
    2) FROM
    3) THE
    4) Horror Writers Association.
    NOT!
    Yesterday at 6:21am · Like

  • Horrified Press I'm sorry, Geoff. The AHWA, I stand corrected. You are still refusing to give me any details of your work for the AHWA. It makes me think you're not doing any. Help reaffirm my belief in associations by explaining to me what you personally do for your members and their membership fee.
    Yesterday at 6:23am · Like

  • Geoff Brown Don't need to. Join up, and I'd be glad to. Wait. You're not eligible. Sorry.

    Yesterday at 6:24am · Like

  • Geoff Brown What do you do for your writers in regard to paying them?
    Yesterday at 6:24am · Like

  • Horrified Press I have been paid for my work, which makes me eligible, however, that's not why I wrote those pieces. And the fact that you only accept paid pieces as proof of writing ability is just another example of your draconian practices concerning the horror market. Still won't tell me what you do, eh? How suspicious does that look in front of your members.
    Yesterday at 6:27am · Edited · Like

  • Horrified Press One of us is talking... and one of us is not.
    Yesterday at 6:26am · Like

  • Geoff Brown That is not why you are ineligible.
    I don't care about paid as proof of writing ability, champ. I care about publishers paying writers as proof of professionalism. You're showing none.

    And I'm sure our members are happy with what the AHWA is doing lately.

    Yesterday at 6:28am · Like

  • Geoff Brown And yes, you're talking, but you're not saying anything substantial. You're dodgy when it comes to answers.
    Yesterday at 6:29am · Like

  • Geoff Brown What do you do for your writers in regard to paying them?
    Yesterday at 6:29am · Like

  • Horrified Press For the forth time, I will ask you. What do you do for your members? What do you do that warrants their membership fee?
    Yesterday at 6:30am · Like

  • Geoff Brown We do plenty. Try Google.
    While you're there, look up ad hominum, and you'll see you've already lost the argument.
    hahahahahah
    Yesterday at 6:30am · Like

  • Geoff Brown And the word you are looking for is 'fourth', Mr Ginsberg-Poe-Orwell! lol
    Yesterday at 6:31am · Like

  • Horrified Press I am writing these quite quickly. Did I slip, like when you divert attention from your work and slip onto another topic entirely? Payments will be made to writers in 'Horrified Press' titles once sales reach a figure that makes sure its substantial (around 100 copies sold).
    Yesterday at 6:33am · Like

  • Horrified Press Now answer my question, if you can...
    Yesterday at 6:33am · Like

  • Horrified Press Specific examples, Geoff. Do you have any?
    Yesterday at 6:33am · Like

  • Geoff Brown But nothing in writing. Not binding in any way.

    https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominemYour logical fallacy is ad hominem
    yourlogicalfallacyis.comAttacking your opponent's character or personal traits in an attempt to undermine their argument.






    Yesterday at 6:33am · Like

  • Horrified Press I have answered your questions, Geoff. If you look at your first comment in this thread, you will see that you have been rude and derogatory about our efforts from the start. You have been rude about the quality of writers in our books, our artwork, everything. You have acted unprofessionally, at least admit it!
    Yesterday at 6:37am · Like

  • Geoff Brown There you go.

    And seeing as you ask so nicely: I've run the Mentoring Program for emerging writers; I've organised creative retreats to raise thousands of dollars for the AHWA; I've done layout for multiple issues of our magazine; I've edited the latest issue of the magazine; I've run the promotion blog for member's works; I've arranged mutually-beneficial partnerships with other horror-based companies... I've helped run writing competitions with genre event co-ordinators; I've spoken at writing festivals to promote the AHWA... I could go on.
    I contribute at least ten to fifteen hours every week conducting AHWA business, all on a voluntary basis.

    Happy?
    Yesterday at 6:37am · Like · 1

  • Horrified Press Indeed. It was a simple question and I'm glad you have answered it professionally.
    Yesterday at 6:38am · Like

  • Geoff Brown I have done everything professionally until you started acting weird.
    Yesterday at 6:38am · Like · 1

  • Horrified Press Why would other writers jump in to this thread, to defend me, if it hadn't seemed like I was under attack from you?
    Yesterday at 6:39am · Like

  • Geoff Brown My first comment: "But what about contributor copies? And potential royalties if the books sell well? That's always an option."

    Because you're their publisher? lol
    Yesterday at 6:40am · Like

  • Geoff Brown How is that first comment rude?
    Yesterday at 6:41am · Like

  • Horrified Press Your initial thread, Geoff. Read it again and see how you come off.
    Yesterday at 6:41am · Like

  • Geoff Brown No payments for ANY of your open submission calls?
    Why not?

    That one?
    Yesterday at 6:41am · Like

  • Horrified Press 'No payments for ANY of your open submission calls?
    Why not?'
    Yesterday at 6:41am · Like

  • Geoff Brown Abrupt maybe, but certainly not rude.
    Yesterday at 6:42am · Like · 1

  • Geoff Brown But still a very valid question.
    Yesterday at 6:42am · Like · 1

  • Horrified Press Yes. You were rude and offhand from minute one. No. "Thanks for the friends request, say, why aren't you offering payments at the moment?"
    Yesterday at 6:42am · Like

  • Geoff Brown Funny that I've had at least thirty private messages, some from one or two of your writers, stating that I am making a very valid argument and thanking me for asking the hard questions.
    Yesterday at 6:43am · Like · 1

  • Horrified Press I have explained to you over and over again, Geoff. When sales are higher, then a payment will be made to each contributing author. And I've also had e-mails telling me that they think your attacks are out of line and unprofessional.
    Yesterday at 6:44am · Like

  • Horrified Press I have explained to you over and over again, Geoff. When sales are higher, then a payment will be made to each contributing author. And I've also had e-mails telling me that they think your attacks are out of line and unprofessional.
    Yesterday at 6:44am · Like

  • Geoff Brown If I had said something like, "Why are you ripping of writers by not paying them?", then yes, that would be rude. but I didn't did I?
    Yesterday at 6:44am · Like

  • Geoff Brown Well, let's see how badly I suffer for asking the hard questions, shall we?
    I don't see my friend lists dropping. In fact, it seems to be rising over the last two days!
    Yesterday at 6:45am · Like

  • Horrified Press No, you didn't. You have insulted myself, my writers, artists and even picked apart comments I posted about my dead mother. I don't see why you stopped there, oh, you haven't.
    Yesterday at 6:46am · Like

  • Horrified Press Mine too. Submissions have doubled.
    Yesterday at 6:46am · Edited · Like

  • Geoff Brown I said nothing about your mother. I would never belittle someone's mother.
    Well, I'm sure it's true that plenty of writers want to not get paid. lol
    Yesterday at 6:47am · Like

  • Geoff Brown Plus I never insulted anyone. I did say that your covers are not the best I have seen.
    It's called critique. Learn what that word means.
    Yesterday at 6:49am · Like · 1

  • Horrified Press I've never said that, Geoff. In an ideal world our titles would have sold millions in their first four weeks of release. I'd been jetting off around the world to give them their cheques. We'd hold a big party on a beach somewhere to celebrate our success (wouldn't that be nice). I don't live in a world of what should, but of what is.
    Yesterday at 6:49am · Like

  • Geoff Brown Maybe you should add royalty clauses, and then everyone would be happy. Except you, maybe.
    Yesterday at 6:50am · Like

  • Horrified Press You're the only one who thinks that of them, Geoff. I accept criticism. During the editing of our books, I openly encourage authors to challenge me on any aspects they are unhappy with, concerning their story. I don't act like a ' judge of all horror'. I have much more humility than that, and manners too.
    Yesterday at 6:52am · Like

  • Geoff Brown I'm the only one that thinks they would rather get paid? Are you sure?
    Yesterday at 6:53am · Like

  • Geoff Brown And an editor IS a judge of horror. lol
    Yesterday at 6:53am · Like

  • Rocky Wood Nathan, as I emailed you some hours ago the Australian Horror Writers Association is not part of the HWA, or affiliated in any way. I asked you to take down your fallacious claims above that Geoff is from the HWA and he is spending our members' money somehow. He is not representing HWA and has no access to our funds. Please stop making these untrue claims. In this thread you make the point you don't like being misrepresented. The same goes for your misrepresentation of the HWA. Please remove the fallacious claims immediately
    Yesterday at 6:54am · Like · 1

  • Sheri White Geoff, I think authors need payment of some kind, even if it is just a contributor copy (hard copy, not electronic).
    Yesterday at 6:54am · Like · 4

  • Geoff Brown I pointed out lots that the AHWA is not part of the HWA.
    Yesterday at 6:55am · Like · 1

  • Geoff Brown I've also pointed out that my comments are from my personal page, and thus my personal opinions.

    That said, I am going now. Do what you like, Nathan, but remember, you reap what you sow.
    Yesterday at 6:57am · Like

  • Geoff Brown And please, stop referring to the HWA in your posts.
    Learn that there is a difference between the AHWA and the HWA.

    1) NOT
    2) FROM
    3) THE
    4) Horror Writers Association.
    NOT!
    22:21 (35 minutes ago) · LikeReply

    Geoff Brown Once more. NOT ... FROM ... THE ... HWA!
    22:21 (34 minutes ago) · LikeReply

    Geoff Brown NOT FROM THE HWA! NOT FROM THE HWA! NOT FROM THE HWA!

    Do you get it yet?
    Yesterday at 6:58am · Like

  • Roy C. Booth Or, rather, payment in the form of a deep contributor's cut to buy copies online so that they can then have copies for conventions/signings. And help spread word of the press further. That way the contributor gets something out of it and the press makes a little extra $$$ from selling copies it normally wouldn't be able to sell. Start with something like that and add to, improve the "pay scale" as you go.
    Yesterday at 7:02am · Edited · Like · 2

  • Horrified Press You did later, Geoff, and I have removed those comments.
    Yesterday at 7:07am · Like

  • Horrified Press Hi Sheri. We do produce a final draft (as it will appear in our titles), and forward this to all contributing authors. If (after we print the anthology you are featured in) you decide to submit this version to other presses, I am more than happy for you to do so.
    Yesterday at 7:17am · Like

  • Horrified Press Apologies for any misrepresentation to the HWA. As they state above, they are nothing to do with the AHWA, and are in no way involved with the comments made by its president.
    Yesterday at 7:19am · Like

  • Horrified Press Hi Roy. I am trying to negotiate something pricewise, in terms of multiple copy sales for shows. That's a good call, and is beneficial to both us and the writer.
    Yesterday at 7:32am · Like

  • Horrified Press Geoff, if your opinions were personal and not spoken as president of the AHWA, then why did you site yourself as their president in this thread? Really. That's too much. I will say this for you though, I do applaud your other work, in terms of what you do off of facebook for your association. You can't say anything against that.
    Yesterday at 7:35am · Like

  • Horrified Press http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq7DGPYzAvgI'll Follow The Sun - The Beatles
    www.youtube.comI'll Follow The Sun - The Beatles






    Yesterday at 10:14am · Like

  • Horrified Press http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWTLINTfVUoThe Beatles We Can Work It Out (2009 Stereo Remaster)
    www.youtube.comJoin the Official TheQuarrymen58 Facebook page for News, Photos and exclusive vi...See More







    Yesterday at 10:17am · Like

  • Suzie Wargo Lockhart Um, wow. First, my intention in responding is not to insult anyone, so I will keep my response as professional as I can. Geoff Brown, I do not know you. Nathan, I know you through our correspondences, since Bruce and I had works accepted into your publications. I can only speak to my dealings with Nathan, who has shown us the upmost professional courtesy. Nothing has been withheld from myself or my son, as far as what to expect in the publishing of these anthologies. As an author, exposure often times can be payment. I happen to believe Nathan when he tells us he is working hard, because he provides specifics. I have worked for Dark Moon Digest and several other publications for exposure only. (Geoff, I am surprised you haven't heard of Dark Moon Digest.) Based on the way Nathan has conducted himself, I believe him when he says if enough profit is made, that he would reappraise payment options. Regardless of how someone felt (Geoff) about an editor/publisher (Nathan), I would hope you (Geoff) would still wish to give the authors in such anthologies exposure. Otherwise, you (Geoff) are doing us (the authors) a disservice. Which is exactly what, I believe, you are accusing Nathan of...?
    Yesterday at 10:57am · Like · 1

  • Horrified Press Oh, it gets worse. He's just told everyone on his facebook page to stay clear of me, that I'm dodgy. Unbelievable!
    Yesterday at 11:01am · Like

  • Suzie Wargo Lockhart What is this guy's beef with you? Geesh! Wish FB had an 'unlike' button!
    23 hours ago · Edited · Like · 1

  • Horrified Press I wish I knew. I've never met him before. I reached out to him via a friend request, hoping he would be good to know, maybe even help us push our titles further. Instead, he launched into this back and forth with me. He seems to think his attitude is fine, that someone in his position should act this way. He's shown examples of his work for the horror community, and I'm pleased for him. I think he honestly believes he's doing the horror writing community a favor, by attacking me for not offering royalties at this stage. He's not!
    23 hours ago · Like

  • Suzie Wargo Lockhart Just keep plowing ahead, Nathan. Your anthologies and your relationship with your authors will speak for themselves. I just think it's tacky to slam someone like that, for no reason.
    23 hours ago · Like · 1

  • Horrified Press Thanks, Suzie. Chin up
    23 hours ago · Like · 1

  • Bruce Lockhart TheSecond Your specifications were clear online Nathan you've been a pleasure to work with & I'm sure will be in the future try to enjoy your day "Haters gonna' Hate" nuff said
    23 hours ago via mobile · Like · 2

  • Horrified Press Thanks, Bruce. I guess so.
    23 hours ago · Like · 1

  • Geoff Brown Suzie, I'm more than happy to promote authors, but I won't promote unprofessional [read non-paying] publishers.
    20 hours ago · Like

  • Bruce Lockhart TheSecond You don't want to start calling out my mother man you made your peace drop it
    20 hours ago via mobile · Like · 1

  • Geoff Brown What? All I did was reply to the woman.
    19 hours ago · Like

  • Horrified Press Unprofessional, Geoff? You told an old friend of yours to "f*ck off you d*ckhead" on your facebook page today. How eloquent.
    19 hours ago · Like

  • Geoff Brown Yeah, an old friend who attacked me first. He disappears, then stalks to a status update by someone he doesn't know and then attacks me.
    Do you really want to continue this, Nathan?
    19 hours ago · Like

  • Geoff Brown And it did say, [read non-paying]. You do understand context, don't you?
    19 hours ago · Like

  • Horrified Press And how dare you call me dodgy. You don't know me or the work I'm putting into this. I'm sick of your attacks. If you knew me, personally, you'd know how wrong you are, and how wrong you are to criticize me like this. I heard that a non-paying press gave you your break, once. Why are you so bitter?
    19 hours ago · Like

  • Horrified Press I understand context, Geoff. Thanks for the sarcasm... again.
    19 hours ago · Like

  • Horrified Press And I will continue this, until you take back what you have said about 'Horrified Press'. You have no right to use your position to undermine myself and the work of our authors.
    19 hours ago · Like

  • Geoff Brown It wasn't a non-paying press. It was a PAYING press that had a free online section.


    And dodgy is as dodgy does. You seem VERY resistant to placing legal wording in your contracts for any future chance of payment.

    You can either drop this and get on with your non-paying market, or keep going and make yourself look more of a fool than you already have.
    19 hours ago · Like

  • Geoff Brown You're doing a great job undermining yourself.
    19 hours ago · Like

  • Horrified Press I didn't call myself 'Dodgy', you did. Take it back, Geoff. It's not true and you know it.
    19 hours ago · Like

  • Horrified Press I have already said I will pay our authors once a sufficient number of sales has been reached. Wasn't that what you wanted, for us to pay our authors when possible? I think whatever I say you'll use it against me.
    19 hours ago · Like

  • Horrified Press And I will agree to put into future contracts, a clause that will see authors paid once a sufficient number of sales has been reached. Will that be enough to appease you? But you must retract what you have said about 'Horrified Press'.
    19 hours ago · Like

  • Horrified Press It's a fair compromise Geoff, and will be a victory for you, in a sense. I have never been against paying authors once the sales have been achieved anyway.
    19 hours ago · Like

  • Horrified Press Or, you can continue to spread your lies and hate about us. Your choice, Geoff.
    19 hours ago · Like

  • Geoff Brown More than fair enough. That is the right thing to do, and on that action I would certainly redact EVERYTHING I've said.
    No matter how you take this, this was not a personal attack against you.
    19 hours ago · Like

  • Horrified Press I don't believe that, however, if you do as you say, I will too.
    19 hours ago · Like

  • Horrified Press It's exactly what I was going to do anyway, just written in the contract.
    19 hours ago · Like

  • Geoff Brown Make an announcement on your profile stating that you WILL do this, and once it's been up for 48 hours I will remove all the posts on my page and elsewhere.
    19 hours ago · Like

  • Horrified Press And you will make a statement to say that you no longer believe that we are a 'dodgy' press? Saying such things is harmful to us, and an unforgivable way to act on your part, but still...
    19 hours ago · Like

  • Horrified Press Basically, you'll be making a statement telling the truth.
    19 hours ago · Like

  • Geoff Brown I will do so, for sure.
    19 hours ago · Like

  • Bruce Lockhart TheSecond You're a smug, spiteful, little man its one thing go state your opinion but really this witchhunt you have against Nathan is just sad we're not put on this earth to cut people down & Nathan is to much of a class act to fight fire w/ fire go off now to your little website or fb page & make all the little vindictive comments that you like us "writers" should really stick together as a creed but your actually enjoying the harrassment your dishing out well its petty & shows all of your true colors,my mother was trying to be respectful in addressing your statements but honestly I could care less about respecting you, he's done a hell of a job getting this anthology put in a lot of great stores read the damn fine print & give it a rest hey Nathan there's this button that let's you remove annoying content use it makes life easier
    19 hours ago via mobile · Like · 1

  • Horrified Press Then, okay. I shall make the announcement on our website and on the facebook page by tomorrow morning, and yes, Bruce, I should have deleted him, but then it looks like I'm doing something wrong, doesn't it? The way he has acted has been atrocious.
    19 hours ago · Edited · Like

  • Geoff Brown Just make the post. I'll ignore Bruce. I wish him and his mother the best of luck with their writing.
    19 hours ago · Like

  • Horrified Press I hope this will be the end of it then, Geoff. Once the announcement has been made, I shall watch for your retraction of your comments and your statement. If either don't appear, then it will say much...
    19 hours ago · Like

  • Horrified Press That's the end of it then.
    19 hours ago · Like

  • Geoff Brown Already made a statement, as you are now aware, and more will follow.
    19 hours ago · Like

  • Horrified Press Fair, Geoff. Done.
    19 hours ago · Like

  • Horrified Press So, anyway, if you would like to support our authors reach our joint goal of being able to pay them royalties, please check out: 'Tales of the Undead - Hell Whore' & 'Tales of the Undead - Suffer Eternal'. Both anthologies are available from Lulu.com and Amazon.com
    about an hour ago · Like
After that discussion yesterday, Horrified Press posted the following this morning:
Quote:
Horrified Press

9 hours ago

Hi all,

After much heated discussion and debate, it was felt the right thing to do is to make our intentions clearer, beyond the exposure we currently offer our writers.
It has always been our intention to offer our authors some sort of royalty payment, once our book sales exceed a specific limit. In order to clarify this, I would like to make clear the following:

In terms of contributor royalties for e-books:

Royalties will be paid between contributing authors to an anthology after a set target has been reached, that of 150 copies sold.

The royalty payment, to be shared between contributors, will be 60% of profits received.

In terms of contributor royalties for paperback sales:

Royalties will be paid between contributing authors to an anthology after a set target has been reached, that of 100 copies sold.

The royalty payment, to be shared between contributors, will be 60% of profits received.

The royalty structure outlined is effective immediately, and shall apply to previous contracts by default.

In addition to this, we shall continue to offer our authors the usual good service, prompt response to queries and exposure.

I would also like to add, that although a large number of markets are non-paying markets, it does not make them any less warranted than ourselves. I have personally been published in many 4TL publications, and am proud to have been in them. I applaud the hard work and dedication that those publishers give to their books, in terms of professionalism and the help they offer to emerging writers. If it wasn't for such markets, I would never have had the opportunity to become published myself, or receive the guidance I needed to progress.

All the best

Nathan J.D.L. Rowark

Founder of Horrified Press
__________________
J.L. Benet
Wolf Hunter - now out from Belfire Press.
JL_Benet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2013, 09:53 PM   #7
veinglory
volitare nequeo
AW Moderator
 
veinglory's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: right here
Posts: 26,220
veinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
Small horror presses seem particularly prone to straddling the amateur and professional categories in awkward ways. My rule of thumb is: if the owner is making money, the authors should be making money.
__________________
veinglory is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2013, 03:09 PM   #8
nkkingston
Bemused Girl
 
nkkingston's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,102
nkkingston is a shiny, shiny jewelnkkingston is a shiny, shiny jewel
Wow, no one is coming out of that discussion looking good.
__________________

Hungry? Check out my other half's blog Colonel Mustard in the Kitchen.
nkkingston is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2013, 03:28 PM   #9
Horrifiedpress
New Fish; Learning About Thick Skin
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 18
Horrifiedpress is on a distinguished road
Horrified Press shared Geoff Brown's status.
12 hours ago
To all those following the Horrified Press dramas:

"I was wrong to assume Horrified Press may be dodgy. The assumption was made on erroneous information, caused by Facebook glitches..
I therefore retract my statement that they 'seem dodgy'."
Time will tell, but they have made the right decision in regard to paying royalties."

My own opinions of FTL presses notwithstanding, to label this press as seeming dodgy was something that was a result of Facebook mechanical stuff.
Horrifiedpress is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2013, 05:00 PM   #10
eternalised
practical experience, FTW
 
eternalised's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Belgium
Posts: 550
eternalised has a spectacular auraeternalised has a spectacular aura
Geoff Brown started by asking a very valid question in the Facebook page. I personally think the publisher way over-reacted, refused to answer the question and really give reasons why. Then the conversation went downhill fast for both sides.

Publisher makes money? = Author should make money too.

When the publisher goes on and on to talk about how much work goes into editing and marketing, all it does is make me frown. A publisher should put their earnings to editing and marketing - it's what's expected. But the publisher gets money, and so should the author. To answer the question with "why aren't authors getting paid?" with "the editor (who also happens to be the publisher) doesn't get paid either" is simply avoiding a real answer.

Authors shouldn't get paid from the moment 150 or something copies get sold. They should get paid from the get-go, from the first copy sold.

That said, there are several exposure-only presses out there. If the exposure they offer is substantial, then they may be a valid choice. I wouldn't "give away" my work simply for exposure, but ultimately that's a choice each author has to make for themselves. However, you have to worry what kind of exposure HorrifiedPress can give you and if it's enough.

On top of that, this press seems very much like a one-man operation, and we've all seen how that goes down. If the owner gets ill (hopefully not though) or something happens to him or his family, the business may cease to exist or stop producing for months in a row, which would be terrible for the authors involved.

To everyone who thinks about submitting to Horrified Press, ask yourself the following questions:
1) Are you willing to give out your work for free and/or in exchange of a contributor's copy?
2) Is it likely they'll reach the 150 number of copies sold so you'll start earning money? And do you want to wait until then?
3) What is their editing like? The FB conversation shows that the publisher avoided the question about his editing skills, so I'd definitely put question marks here.
4) What is the publisher's experience? Regardless of what lots of people seem to believe, publishing isn't an entry-level job.
5) What can they do in terms of marketing?
6) They seem a one-man operation. So one person does the publishing, editing, marketing, formatting, cover art, etc. This raises question marks as well.

I'd be grateful if the publisher could come here to answer the following questions:
1) What is your experience as a publisher? Have you worked in the publishing field before or not?
2) What is your experience as an editor?
3) Why don't you pay the authors and/or only pay after 150 copies have been sold?

You're only giving 60% of royalties to anthology contributors. What do you do that justifies keeping the 40%? Do you get the book in actual stores (not just online stores)? What do you do in terms of marketing?
__________________
Visit my website.


eternalised is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2013, 06:31 PM   #11
veinglory
volitare nequeo
AW Moderator
 
veinglory's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: right here
Posts: 26,220
veinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
It also seems like the "pay after 100 copies" thing was added after this little disagreement? It sounds like before that it was completely non-paying.
__________________
veinglory is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2013, 07:13 PM   #12
Terie
Writer is as Writer does
 
Terie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 4,167
Terie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTerie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTerie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTerie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTerie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTerie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTerie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTerie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTerie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTerie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTerie is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
Manuscripts are one of the raw materials of books. Without the story, there would be no book.

If you decided to go into business making cabinets, you would have to pay for wood starting with the first cabinet you made.

If you decided to go onto business making silk flowers, you would have to pay for fabric starting with the first bouquet you made.

Why are books different? Why should the manufacturer get the first batch of raw materials without having to pay for them?
__________________
Changing Gears (available now) -- Winning the race doesn’t equal winning at life.

The DragonSpawn Cycle: AutumnQuest | WinterMaejic | SpringFire | SummerDanse available for Kindle

Author website | Author blog
Terie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2013, 07:40 PM   #13
Horrifiedpress
New Fish; Learning About Thick Skin
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 18
Horrifiedpress is on a distinguished road
Hi Eternalised,

I appreciate your criticisms, and take your points on board. I would also like to answer your questions as succinctly as possible:

1) What is your experience as a publisher? Have you worked in the publishing field before or not?

I have experience in business, running two small businesses for a period of thirteen years, although, these were unrelated to publishing. I have since worked for large corporate institutions, one of which had me organizing the sales and distribution of books through the leading book distributors within the UK. I self published my debut novel 'Infatuation - the story of the snow queen', then went on to write and publish a second 'Hilltop Manor - Gale's story'. My second novel was also serialized for free in a popular webzine, for exposure only. My experience in the world of publishing is from a personal perspective in both the corporate world and through my own endeavors.

2) What is your experience as an editor?

As a writer who only returned to the field three years ago, I have had over fifty short stories and poems published with a variety of presses; some small, some big. Some of my work has even been entered into the British Library. Payments for my work have either been for exposure or very little monetary payment; of which I have put into 'Horrified Press'. If you wish to know if I have any professional training, the answer is yes and no. I'll explain...
Did I study my craft through recognized learning institutions after I left college education? No. Did I work hard with recognized, published authors to learn my skills in the field? Yes. For three years I knuckled down and worked on my writing career every chance I could get. I did this because I love the genre and finally connected with my true calling, that of telling stories. Horrified Press was set up by myself (Nathan J.D.L. Rowark), so that I could push my own work myself and gain control over it more, putting its success firmly in my hands. After struggling to learn my craft, and perfect it to a high standard, I then made the decision that I would enjoy helping others. This decision was encouraged by my peers, and by those who know me personally. Add to this the amount of small presses shutting their doors, hence limiting the market for writers to be published in, it made sense to take the next step... Our first anthology calls were for 'Tales of the Undead - Hell Whore' & 'Tales of the Undead - Suffer Eternal'. Originally, they were going to be single volumes, and I wanted to bring together a mix of new and established artists, to give the reader something truly different. The established artists would benefit from my experience, as I continually work to gain them exposure using the knowledge I have of being published in the industry; the traps and pitfalls. New writers would gain free editing services and advice on how to progress. They would also gain exposure. I set about creating our first anthologies, and am so proud of our authors efforts. The quality of tales submitted was of an incredibly high standard, and the books themselves came out wonderfully. After release, around 6-8 weeks now, I set about organizing the supply chain, so they will reach even more people than they already have as the months progress.

3) Why don't you pay the authors and/or only pay after 150 copies have been sold?

Firstly, to clarify, once we clear 150 copies of the e-book edition of a book our authors have been featured, then they will receive a 60% share of that revenue, and from every 150 copies that follow. Two reasons for this. The first, it gives the author a bigger payment. Second, less administration. One payment made to each author every 150 copies sold. The amount is low, unlike some presses that ask their authors wait until thousands of copies have been sold, but large enough for us to give them an amount that won't insult them. We only sell our e-books for $3. I want our collective work to be available at an affordable price for people to buy it. This also increases exposure.
I hope I've answered your questions to a full enough extent, and thank you for taking the time to ask them.

Regards

Nathan J.D.L. Rowark
Horrifiedpress is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2013, 08:06 PM   #14
kaitie
Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya.
 
kaitie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Or the Master. Whatever.
Posts: 10,503
kaitie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskaitie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskaitie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskaitie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskaitie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskaitie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskaitie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskaitie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskaitie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskaitie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskaitie is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
Can you name one legitimate company that asks authors to sell thousands of copies before they get paid? Because I can't. You're trying to make yourself look good by giving a scenario that doesn't even exist.

People around here are smarter than that.
__________________
"You will experience a tingling sensation and then death."

And just because it's still awesome: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgiXGELjbc

Take two: 90,008
Current: 7,680


kaitie is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2013, 08:13 PM   #15
Horrifiedpress
New Fish; Learning About Thick Skin
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 18
Horrifiedpress is on a distinguished road
Hi Kaitie,

I apologize if my comment offended you. I do not assume that anyone on here is stupid. When I conducted research into royalty paying markets, I did find this was the case with a few. Apologies for any misunderstanding caused.
Horrifiedpress is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2013, 08:48 PM   #16
veinglory
volitare nequeo
AW Moderator
 
veinglory's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: right here
Posts: 26,220
veinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsveinglory is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
The general model is to pay a supportable royalty, preferable based on cover price or net receipts, for every copy sold.

There are many valid deviations from that model, but just to establish the baseline....
__________________
veinglory is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2013, 08:51 PM   #17
kaitie
Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya.
 
kaitie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Or the Master. Whatever.
Posts: 10,503
kaitie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskaitie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskaitie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskaitie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskaitie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskaitie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskaitie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskaitie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskaitie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskaitie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskaitie is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horrifiedpress View Post
Hi Kaitie,

I apologize if my comment offended you. I do not assume that anyone on here is stupid. When I conducted research into royalty paying markets, I did find this was the case with a few. Apologies for any misunderstanding caused.
Could you say which ones?
__________________
"You will experience a tingling sensation and then death."

And just because it's still awesome: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgiXGELjbc

Take two: 90,008
Current: 7,680


kaitie is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2013, 09:19 PM   #18
nkkingston
Bemused Girl
 
nkkingston's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,102
nkkingston is a shiny, shiny jewelnkkingston is a shiny, shiny jewel
It's more common to have a clause along the lines of "60% royalties divided between contributors, which will be paid quarterly when royalty total per contributor is $20 or higher." But, you know, written by a lawyer rather than me. If 150 copies works out as about $21 a head, you might as well have had it that way around.
__________________

Hungry? Check out my other half's blog Colonel Mustard in the Kitchen.
nkkingston is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2013, 09:30 PM   #19
Horrifiedpress
New Fish; Learning About Thick Skin
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 18
Horrifiedpress is on a distinguished road
I don't want to start naming and shaming other presses, but I will say that they were few. A significantly higher number pay royalties using a sliding scale. Others pay using a time scale. My point is, what we are offering is better than that. Once we get our titles into bookstores (and they are currently of a quality where it is feasible), our authors could potentially reach the sales of 100 paperbacks quite quickly, and multiple times in a month. If you average the amount of stores that a bookstore chain has in one country (let's say 300), and you achieve the goal of having your titles stocked nationally, the author could see themselves being paid multiple times by achieving one sale per store. The further we can extend the reach of our titles, the higher the amount sold.
Horrifiedpress is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2013, 09:33 PM   #20
G. Applejack
Write faster! FASTER!
 
G. Applejack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Oregon
Posts: 410
G. Applejack has a spectacular auraG. Applejack has a spectacular aura
Quote:
Originally Posted by nkkingston View Post
It's more common to have a clause along the lines of "60% royalties divided between contributors, which will be paid quarterly when royalty total per contributor is $20 or higher." But, you know, written by a lawyer rather than me. If 150 copies works out as about $21 a head, you might as well have had it that way around.
Ick. I would not be happy with such a clause. So that would mean if, say, you sold $150 through Amazon and $18 dollars through Bobs eBook Barn, they'd hold back the entire royalty check until Bobs sells another copy? Or am I misunderstanding? (Totally possible.)

Back to the thread, if I remember right didn't Publish America have a clause in some of their boiler plates about a 200 book minimum before royalties are paid? It's a far cry from "thousands" and PA isn't exactly the publisher you want to model yourself after....
__________________


Blog | Twitter
Co-mod at Writing MM Romance, a critique group.

Novels:

Touch Me Not - Loose Id
Second Skin - December 2013, Musa Publishing
G. Applejack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2013, 09:39 PM   #21
Horrifiedpress
New Fish; Learning About Thick Skin
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 18
Horrifiedpress is on a distinguished road
G. Applejack, I know. I have heard bad things about them. I'll clarify our position on paperback sales... once we have sold 100 paperback copies of a title via any medium, 60% of the profits from those sales are to be divided between the contributing authors.
Horrifiedpress is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2013, 09:55 PM   #22
Calla Lily
On deadline for the next year or so
AW Moderator
 
Calla Lily's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Non carborundum illegitimi
Posts: 32,111
Calla Lily is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsCalla Lily is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsCalla Lily is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsCalla Lily is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsCalla Lily is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsCalla Lily is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsCalla Lily is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsCalla Lily is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsCalla Lily is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsCalla Lily is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsCalla Lily is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terie View Post
Manuscripts are one of the raw materials of books. Without the story, there would be no book.

If you decided to go into business making cabinets, you would have to pay for wood starting with the first cabinet you made.

If you decided to go onto business making silk flowers, you would have to pay for fabric starting with the first bouquet you made.

Why are books different? Why should the manufacturer get the first batch of raw materials without having to pay for them?
This.
__________________
<a href=http://s675.photobucket.com/user/WriterLily/media/5ce960bf-7c40-48ee-9959-9c7fa2d192aa_zps17845a68.jpg.html target=_blank><img src=http://i675.photobucket.com/albums/vv117/WriterLily/5ce960bf-7c40-48ee-9959-9c7fa2d192aa_zps17845a68.jpg border=0 alt= /></a> Nun Too Soon arrives January 13, 2015! Preorder for Kindle. Preorder paperback.
Calla Lily is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2013, 10:01 PM   #23
Horrifiedpress
New Fish; Learning About Thick Skin
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 18
Horrifiedpress is on a distinguished road
Hi Callalily61. I do see your point. When in business, depending on which one, often times a supplier will give you credit (averagely 30days - 120days). They facilitate this to allow the seller to make as many sales as they can, regardless of budget. This is in the interests of the supplier and the seller.
Horrifiedpress is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2013, 10:15 PM   #24
Horrifiedpress
New Fish; Learning About Thick Skin
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 18
Horrifiedpress is on a distinguished road
To sum up, I have come on here today to answer a question put to me and to ask writers and horror fans alike to gave myself and 'Horrified Press' the benefit of the doubt. I will not be taking any editing fees, or any payment whatsoever for the running of this venture. I have stipulated an amount of 60% royalties to be shared upon us making a decent amount of sales to warrant this. I will take a cut of this 60%, for any story I publish in the anthologies we release. 40% of profits gained will be held for marketing on-line and in the marketplace, for now and in the future. This will include things such as paid advertising campaigns, the costs of attending shows to sell our books next year (so that it won't affect our authors cut), running costs, etc. If I find, as we progress, that the amount set aside for such activities is excessive, I will make the decision to increase our authors cut of the profits. I appreciate all your comments, and thank you for taking the time to put them to me. I hope I have answered them sufficiently, and I hope that you will contribute to our books in the future. On one final note, I would ask that you check out the quality of our anthology books released so far, and wish you all well in your own writing adventures!

Best Wishes

Nathan J.D.L. Rowark
Horrifiedpress is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2013, 10:16 PM   #25
Calla Lily
On deadline for the next year or so
AW Moderator
 
Calla Lily's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Non carborundum illegitimi
Posts: 32,111
Calla Lily is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsCalla Lily is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsCalla Lily is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsCalla Lily is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsCalla Lily is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsCalla Lily is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsCalla Lily is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsCalla Lily is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsCalla Lily is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsCalla Lily is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsCalla Lily is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
Horrifiedpress, I'm a freelancer. I've owned my own business. My family has owned its own business. In my decades of experience, and in the experience of others I've known, this model always benefits the one who gets to delay payment, never the other way around.

As I said, my experience. YMMV.
__________________
<a href=http://s675.photobucket.com/user/WriterLily/media/5ce960bf-7c40-48ee-9959-9c7fa2d192aa_zps17845a68.jpg.html target=_blank><img src=http://i675.photobucket.com/albums/vv117/WriterLily/5ce960bf-7c40-48ee-9959-9c7fa2d192aa_zps17845a68.jpg border=0 alt= /></a> Nun Too Soon arrives January 13, 2015! Preorder for Kindle. Preorder paperback.
Calla Lily is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Custom Search

If this site is helpful to you,
Please consider a voluntary subscription to defray ongoing expenses.

Buy Scrivener 2 for Mac OS X (Regular Licence)


All times are GMT +4.5. The time now is 06:07 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.