Delusions of Gender -- Must read for everybody, but especially genderqueers

[BigWords]

No, the wires from the cable into the plug itself - see the diagram here.

[Isobel Lindley]

Very few people know how to change plugs these days - it was an old fashioned UK thing where they didn't come fully installed already, I think? I don't understand myself. In any case, my wife knows how, she could teach him. And I've never seen a park with "no women allowed" signs outside, either.

ETA: There you go, he could look it up on the interwebs!

[Medievalist]

Originally Posted by kuwisdelu

Don't you just pull it out of the wall socket...?

If it's anything more complicated than that, I was never taught either. *shrug*

My mother was the handy one around the house anyway.

Things are different in the UK/Europe. There are still older houses with a variety of outlets that don't fit the plugs on appliances.

I made some elicit cash on the side because, after helping my dad wiring a non-wired house as a kid, I knew some stuff.

[kuwisdelu]

Originally Posted by BigWords

No, the wires from the cable into the plug itself - see the diagram here.

bbc.co.uk? Wait, is this a —

Originally Posted by Isobel Lindley

an old fashioned UK thing

Ah. Okay.

[DancingMaenid]

Gender is very difficult to explain because a lot of the visible examples of it can actually be explained by gender roles.

I do agree that there are some biological differences due to different hormone levels, but these differences will also vary from person to person, and aren't a good way of describing what gender means, I don't think.

I'll be honest--it's hard for me to understand gender. I don't know exactly how I feel about it. I identify as genderqueer, and I've struggled with dysphoria to some extent for years, though to a milder extent than many FTM people do. A lot of the dysphoria is physical, and I think I would be happy to have a male body. But that's not the full extent of it, either.

When I try to explain identifying as genderqueer or trans, it seems like a lot of people are quick to assume that I'm a woman who can't cope with having masculine interests or traits. Yet in reality, I don't see myself as that stereotypically masculine at all. I played with dolls as a kid, and my writing is very focused on relationships. If I were a cisgender man, I don't think these things would make me doubt my gender identity. As it is, there's pressure to be stereotypically masculine in order to "really" be trans.

I don't think my actions or habits define my gender. I stopped shaving my legs and underarms a couple years before I started to seriously question my gender identity, and it seems strange to me that a grooming habit that was once "transgressive" is now something that's expected of me if I'm ever to be seen as male. Yet, it's challenging to talk about my own identity without using gender roles as examples. I feel more comfortable in male clothes, but there's no reason why a cis woman can't feel more comfortable in male clothes. And at the same time, some gender roles (male or female) simply don't appeal to me at all. I never want to become a guy who objectifies women, for example, or feels pressured to do macho things. Being male in our society will never be a perfect fit for me, but it's also not a perfect fit for a lot of cis men.

When it comes down to it, I don't know what makes me male, female, or none of the above.

[kuwisdelu]

I always wish I could feel more free to explore different gender identities. I don't feel strongly attached to being male, but nor do I identify as anything else. I'm cool with being male, so I go ahead and identify that way. I'm too shy to try anything else in public.

[theelfchild]

Originally Posted by Isobel Lindley

A social worker once told us we couldn't have a son because "who would take him to the park and teach him to change plugs?"

Seriously? Would s/he ever say that to a single mom? Where did this person keep their brains?

*sigh* Sometimes I forget how not-normal my views of gender are...

I don't think my actions or habits define my gender. I stopped shaving my legs and underarms a couple years before I started to seriously question my gender identity, and it seems strange to me that a grooming habit that was once "transgressive" is now something that's expected of me if I'm ever to be seen as male. Yet, it's challenging to talk about my own identity without using gender roles as examples. I feel more comfortable in male clothes, but there's no reason why a cis woman can't feel more comfortable in male clothes. And at the same time, some gender roles (male or female) simply don't appeal to me at all. I never want to become a guy who objectifies women, for example, or feels pressured to do macho things. Being male in our society will never be a perfect fit for me, but it's also not a perfect fit for a lot of cis men.

When it comes down to it, I don't know what makes me male, female, or none of the above.

This is one reason I view the gender binary as so harmful. Those who are born matching physically to what they think they are aren't expected to fit neatly into a box - I know my brother has never been questioned on being a boy despite his many 'feminine' traits, so why should you be questioned on whatever you decide?

[Melanie Dawn]

Originally Posted by kuwisdelu

I always wish I could feel more free to explore different gender identities. I don't feel strongly attached to being male, but nor do I identify as anything else. I'm cool with being male, so I go ahead and identify that way. I'm too shy to try anything else in public.

why?


oh wait, nevermind... sounds more like a possible CD than gender fluid or disphoric.

[Medievalist]

Originally Posted by theelfchild

This is one reason I view the gender binary as so harmful.

The concept that gender is binary is idiotic and inaccurate.

It isn't. It never has been. It isn't even a binary in linguistics.

Feel free to tell such people that they are both clueless and ignorant.

[kuwisdelu]

Originally Posted by Melanie Dawn

why?


oh wait, nevermind... sounds more like a possible CD than gender fluid or disphoric.

What's a CD?

But no, not dysphoric.

[Melanie Dawn]

Originally Posted by kuwisdelu

What's a CD?

But no, not dysphoric.

cross dresser

[kuwisdelu]

Originally Posted by Melanie Dawn

cross dresser

Ah, yeah. Kind of.

I identify with aspects of genderfluidity, but not to the extent of being unhappy or discontent being identified as male most of the time. Something like this.

[Medievalist]

Originally Posted by kuwisdelu

Ah, yeah. Kind of.

I identify with aspects of genderfluidity, but not to the extent of being unhappy or discontent being identified as male most of the time. Something like this.

And there are cultural differences; you aren't main stream American WASP.

[kuwisdelu]

You know, now that I'm thinking about it, this may actually explain why I've always been somewhat uncomfortable with the label "bisexual" for myself. I'm not often attracted to guys, but when I am, it's usually in the context of thinking of myself as a girl. I suppose you could say that I'm actually straight, but with bigender tendencies. Does that make any sense at all?

[mayqueen]

I'm familiar with Fine's work. It's a good starting point for why so-called innate gender differences are bullshit and what I usually point to when I start frothing at the mouth about evolutionary psychology or sociobiology.

I tend to fall in with Judith Butler's argument that we had to invent sex to justify heterogender (as in, woman/man gender supported by heterosexuality). I also really buy into Anne Fausto-Sterling's work. She's a biologist who has argued that we need to redefine sex as more of a continuum, considering chromosomes, hormones, and genitalia.

But then again, I'm a sociologist by training, so I believe 1) most things are products of social interaction and 2) things become real when we treat them as real.

[kuwisdelu]

Speaking as a statistician, can we at least keep sex or gender as a checkbox (no matter how many checkboxes) or on some kind of numerical scale, at least?

Fill-in-the-blanks make my job very difficult, alas.

[Kim Fierce]

I can't believe the social worker told you that. . . as for me I realized I have way more in common with boy interests than girl. I will have no problem playing sports with him. We play with cars and over the weekend I showed him how to make his super hero action figures fight each other. But we also make sure to have male influence in his life. He has recently started calling our sperm donor "Daddy" which we talked about doing when we were ready, and after he started calling one of his uncles daddy we realized it was time! But that's just what is working for us... the sperm donor is a relative of my wife's who doesn't have his own kids yet. For our family, we don't mind letting him know and being involved in his life.

Having a girl would scare me . . . I'm not good at the world of pink and purple and princesses and hairstyling!

So I'm sure if I ever have another baby it will be a girl and I will have to learn some things! Again, she wouldn't be discouraged from being herself, but multiple options should be available to her. If she does want to learn how to do hair and makeup I have a sister who can teach her lol.

[mayqueen]

Originally Posted by kuwisdelu

Speaking as a statistician, can we at least keep sex or gender as a checkbox (no matter how many checkboxes) or on some kind of numerical scale, at least?

Fill-in-the-blanks make my job very difficult, alas.

Stats have their place and can be very useful!

I used to do the reporting for a sexual health clinic. We tried to get our boss to queer the forms until we realized how hard it would be to turn all that into reportable data on a CDC or Department of Health form.

[Kim Fierce]

Originally Posted by mayqueen

Stats have their place and can be very useful!

I used to do the reporting for a sexual health clinic. We tried to get our boss to queer the forms until we realized how hard it would be to turn all that into reportable data on a CDC or Department of Health form.

I can't think of what kind of other options they would make that would be easy for everyone. When asked about race there is a box that says "prefer not to say" and that's the best I can think of . . . a box called "other" just seems wrong!

[Isobel Lindley]

Originally Posted by Kim Fierce

I can't believe the social worker told you that. . .

My (unhappy) experience with UK adoption social workers was that they were incredibly essentialist about gender, sexuality and race - straight out of the 1950s. I'm sure she'd be horrified that our donating friend is Chinese while we're white, too. There was also a lot of hostility toward single mothers with sons that we picked up from social workers, so I'm pretty sure the same assumptions were applied to them.

I'm so cis it isn't funny, but my child raising experience is all with boys! My wife is also cis, but butch cis, so she doesn't match with what people expect of female gender a lot of the time. Which is one reason I want sex and gender kept separate - especially when I hear about trans* people being denied treatment because they don't fit the stereotypical definitions of their chosen/real gender and having to play the game and dress/act to extreme in order to be taken seriously in the desire to transistion. OMG, you can't be a woman, you don't wear lipstick! Never mind that plenty of cis women don't either! Confusion of sex with cultural gender roles and expectations is, IMO, really harmful.

The "male role models" (people seem far less concerned about girls having female ones) obsession gets me down. Our baby will have plenty of men in his life, just not a father - we have male relatives and friends of all sexualities, for heaven's sake! (Donor will be known to the kid as such, but not in any kind of parental role. He has five of his own kids.) And it makes me happy that he will have plenty of models of maleness to choose from.

I lean very strongly to the position that gender is largely a product of culture.

[thothguard51]

I think it was a reference to spark plug, because car stuff is generally considered a guy thing...

I could be wrong...

[kuwisdelu]

It's a common problem for delinquent boys to lack positive male role models in their lives.

My own interpretation is it's not the lack of positive male role models, but the presence of negative ones.

[kuwisdelu]

Originally Posted by thothguard51

I think it was a reference to spark plug, because car stuff is generally considered a guy thing...

I could be wrong...

I've never understood why guys are supposed to be into cars.

[thothguard51]

Originally Posted by kuwisdelu

I've never understood why guys are supposed to be into cars.

Because in the old days, its what dad taught you, not mom...

How to fix a flat, how to change the oil, how to change the spark plugs and set the timing.

Today, not so much as cars are much more technical.

[kuwisdelu]

Originally Posted by thothguard51

Because in the old days, its what dad taught you, not mom...

That's a pretty lame reason.