Quiltbag Cantina and Tearoom

[hrj]

As promised, I've posted a version of my lecture "Sex Between Women in the Middle Ages and Renaissance" here.

[MacAllister]

w00t! Thanks for the link.

[Mara]

Originally Posted by hrj

As promised, I've posted a version of my lecture "Sex Between Women in the Middle Ages and Renaissance" here.

Thanks! That was really interesting, and well written and easy to understand as well. I really appreciate it!

And the acknowledgement that transsexualism exists was also appreciated. (I know how ridiculously hard it is to separate orientation and gender identity when they were conflated for so long. I just always dislike it when I read historical works that don't even acknowledge the transsexual angle, but you did a good job of handling that.

[hrj]

Originally Posted by Mara

And the acknowledgement that transsexualism exists was also appreciated. (I know how ridiculously hard it is to separate orientation and gender identity when they were conflated for so long. I just always dislike it when I read historical works that don't even acknowledge the transsexual angle, but you did a good job of handling that.

Thanks for the feedback that it came across well. Trying to map modern gender/sex/orientation concepts onto historic people and events is tricky, but I don't fall into the camp that says "there's no such thing as [insert category here] before the modern era because they hadn't invented the concept yet". I see it as packaging an associated cluster of concepts in different subsets. The concepts in the cluster are still real, even in a different package.

Here's a weird analogy. Prepositions rarely translate exactly one-for-one between languages, even closely related languages. But that doesn't mean that the people speaking the languages live in worlds with entirely different types of spatial relationships -- only that they may find it easier to bundle certain sets of spatial characteristics together than other sets. A language doesn't need a one-word preposition to be able to describe one object as being "spread out and in close continuous contact with a vertical flat surface", but if the language does have a single word describing that relationship, then speakers are likely to be more aware of objects with that relationship.

Similarly, the cluster of characteristics that I'm exploring in these research papers may only intersect as a unified prototype in certain specific times and cultures, but that doesn't mean that a person of a different time and place couldn't have experienced that same cluster -- without viewing it as some sort of holistic concept.

I'm kind of getting away from a simple "thank you". Sorry.

(Posting the sex essay has prompted me to work on the expanded version of the cross-dressing essay.)

[Mara]

Originally Posted by hrj

Thanks for the feedback that it came across well. Trying to map modern gender/sex/orientation concepts onto historic people and events is tricky, but I don't fall into the camp that says "there's no such thing as [insert category here] before the modern era because they hadn't invented the concept yet". I see it as packaging an associated cluster of concepts in different subsets. The concepts in the cluster are still real, even in a different package.

Here's a weird analogy. Prepositions rarely translate exactly one-for-one between languages, even closely related languages. But that doesn't mean that the people speaking the languages live in worlds with entirely different types of spatial relationships -- only that they may find it easier to bundle certain sets of spatial characteristics together than other sets. A language doesn't need a one-word preposition to be able to describe one object as being "spread out and in close continuous contact with a vertical flat surface", but if the language does have a single word describing that relationship, then speakers are likely to be more aware of objects with that relationship.

Similarly, the cluster of characteristics that I'm exploring in these research papers may only intersect as a unified prototype in certain specific times and cultures, but that doesn't mean that a person of a different time and place couldn't have experienced that same cluster -- without viewing it as some sort of holistic concept.

I'm kind of getting away from a simple "thank you". Sorry.

(Posting the sex essay has prompted me to work on the expanded version of the cross-dressing essay.)

That sounds like a very good approach to me. Very much more sensible than, "Oh, X didn't exist because semantics" that I sometimes see.

[MacAllister]

I keep trying to mentally compose a thoughtful comment to post there about the intersection between the sources you've examined, and the observed cultural phenomenon of lesbian invisibility (unless you step outside the box and usurp the rights/prerogatives of a man) -- but the whole train of thought keeps sort of slipping sideways out of my grasp.

[hrj]

What I'm amazed at is that once you start breaking the quest down into motifs rather than looking for "lesbians in history" there ends up being vastly more material than I'd have predicted. (And I'm not actually doing much of anything in the way of original research here -- just re-packaging the existing scholarship.)

[MacAllister]

Originally Posted by hrj

What I'm amazed at is that once you start breaking the quest down into motifs rather than looking for "lesbians in history" there ends up being vastly more material than I'd have predicted. (And I'm not actually doing much of anything in the way of original research here -- just re-packaging the existing scholarship.)

Yes! That! That's exactly the sort of thing I've been trying to wrap my head around well enough to compose a response to your very interesting post. It's like those magic eye puzzles, where you have to look past and around the thing you're looking for, before you can see the thing itself.

[Bookewyrme]

Originally Posted by Medievalist

Google "tea room trade"

Originally Posted by Gale Haut

See I didn't have this informed direction to work from, so I resorted to google image search and... and...

I googled too. My favorite image-result was the one of protesters, one of whom was holding a sign reading "It's 12:15 pm, do you know which stall your Senator is in?" I found that amusing for some reason.

Originally Posted by Kim Fierce

I posted something in announcements but I'm too excited and wanted to share it with QUILTBAGS! My short story "Amelia's Revolution" is going to be released Dec. 9 for $1.99 in e-format. It's a queer steampunk story! :-) I am in love with the cover. If you want to see the blurb and cover you can go here!

http://www.queerteen-press.com/index...products_id=63

Hurray Kim! I will definitely be checking this out. I love Steampunk, and queer steampunk is even better!

[MacAllister]

Heh. Now I really do feel old. I had no idea that "Tearoom" had already passed out of the subcultural community parlance.

I am consoled only by the idea that it least it made Ben Panced snort his Postum up into his sinuses.

[BenPanced]

KAVA! KAVA!

[Gale Haut]

I'm not sure that the term has passed out of use. I am kind of late to the scene, so I don't think anyone should assume me not knowing something equals it no longer being relevant.

[hrj]

Originally Posted by MacAllister

Heh. I can't be the only one checking back to see if hrj has heard anything, right? (Yes, I know it's only a few days, and that it just plain takes a while -- but what's the fun of waiting alone, when you could have a party instead?)

And as promised ... I've heard something.

I will shortly be in receipt of a contract for my consideration from Bella Books for Daughter of Mystery. I was almost exactly one month from submission to hearing back, which I know is startlingly fast.

Still grinning madly.

[MacAllister]

Woo HOOO!!!! Congratulations!

And Happy Thanksgiving, too!

[hrj]

Originally Posted by MacAllister

Woo HOOO!!!! Congratulations!

And Happy Thanksgiving, too!

Thank you. I'm still glowing.

[Corinne Duyvis]

That essay is awesome and fascinating, hrj. I shared it on Twitter. Thanks so much for writing it--and congrats on the deal!