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Old 06-08-2012, 06:29 PM   #26
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It's possible that's the policy but I can see a company not wanting to face the negative publicity it would generate. A driver is sacked for letting a young woman off of 20p at three in the morning in the rough part of town? The public outcry would be pretty big.
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Old 06-08-2012, 06:37 PM   #27
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Well, it's maybe not so much blaming the victim as almost a superstitious chant against getting raped. I worked as a rape crisis counselor when I was young (too young, really shouldn't have done it, got a bit PTSD-ish from all those bloody/smelly ER scenes). But anyway, I started doing this thing that most rape counselors do. A woman got raped taking her trash out at night. "I'll never take my trash out at night," I thought. A woman got raped after putting an ad in the paper to sell a car and stabbed 17 times, too. "Well, I'll always use a car dealership from now on." A woman got raped after her car broke down and she accepted a ride from a "good samaritan." I thought... well, you see how it goes. Finally, I got a victim who had been raped sleeping in her own bed at night behind locked doors and windows. Now what am I going to do to stop myself from being raped, eh? I realized all my rules were senseless, and I could take the trash out and sell my car from now on, too.

The truth is, any woman can get raped in any circumstance. Daytime? yep. By a person you know and trust? Absolutely. By a cop helping you? Surely. So I learned a lot of self-defense and five lovely ways to kill people with my bare hands, and I'd do it, no doubt of it. I'd do it and enjoy it, probably, bad me. If he has a gun, I get raped. That's the horrible reality.

So that "she should have..." talk isn't necessarily blaming the victim. It's part of that wrong-headed hope that we're too smart to be raped and if only we follow these magical laws we make up, we won't be.

The rapist being stupid--that's just criminals. Brilliant fictional felons like Hannibal Lecter are fictional. Real felons are, over 99% of the time, idiots.
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Old 06-08-2012, 06:39 PM   #28
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I think there is a big difference between giving someone on the street money when they beg and helping out with a small amount, that wouldn't hurt you. She was alone, it was late and it was the last bus. There was no reason not to do it. Even if you had given money to 'professional' beggars all day long. And besides, if she had planned to 'scam' anyone, she wouldn't have any money at all. She just didn't have the full fare.
And yes, I think everyone is at fault. Maybe not by law but morally.

Just because nobody writes stuff like that down and a bunch of other people vote on it and claim it to be right, doesn't mean it wouldn't be the right thing to do.

I'm tired of people with stupid excuses. If it's in your power just frickin help. It doesn't hurt you. Do it because it's the right thing.
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Old 06-08-2012, 06:44 PM   #29
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A guy called the radio earlier to do just that. In his mind, the people on the bus and the driver shared full responsibility. The host challenged him on that because, after all, they weren't the rapist, and he didn't have much of a reply.
And not to derail, but the desire to "spread the blame" cuts across all kinds of tragedies.

My kid's driver ed teacher (who is a regular font of urban legends) told his students about a pick-up truck driver who, while reading a text from his girlfriend, plowed into two people on a motorcycle who weren't wearing helmets, killing them.

Who was to blame, and at what percent, he asked them. Amazingly, all of the kids thought the texting girlfriend was at least 10% but as much as 50% to blame. Nevermind that the driver had no business reading texts while driving.

Humans are strange creatures.

/derail
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Old 06-08-2012, 06:48 PM   #30
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I think there is a big difference between giving someone on the street money when they beg and helping out with a small amount, that wouldn't hurt you. She was alone, it was late and it was the last bus. There was no reason not to do it. Even if you had given money to 'professional' beggars all day long. And besides, if she had planned to 'scam' anyone, she wouldn't have any money at all. She just didn't have the full fare.
And yes, I think everyone is at fault. Maybe not by law but morally.

Just because nobody writes stuff like that down and a bunch of other people vote on it and claim it to be right, doesn't mean it wouldn't be the right thing to do.

I'm tired of people with stupid excuses. If it's in your power just frickin help. It doesn't hurt you. Do it because it's the right thing.
Regardless, the rape is still not the fault of the people who did or did not know she needed fare.

Doesn't mean they shouldn't have been a little more generous. I am sure we could all be a little more generous if we tried. But it's beside the point: rape is always 100% the fault of the rapist.
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Old 06-08-2012, 06:49 PM   #31
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It's possible that's the policy but I can see a company not wanting to face the negative publicity it would generate. A driver is sacked for letting a young woman off of 20p at three in the morning in the rough part of town? The public outcry would be pretty big.
Yeah, but if nothing happened to her, there'd never be a public outcry. Just one sacked driver.
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Old 06-08-2012, 06:55 PM   #32
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Yeah, but if nothing happened to her, there'd never be a public outcry. Just one sacked driver.
I think the outcry would come from why the driver got the sack. Say he turns her away at 3am in a rough part of town for the sake of 20p and is sacked...people would see the sacking as excessive. More than a few of our papers would milk it for all they could.
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Old 06-08-2012, 06:57 PM   #33
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Well, it's maybe not so much blaming the victim as almost a superstitious chant against getting raped. I worked as a rape crisis counselor when I was young (too young, really shouldn't have done it, got a bit PTSD-ish from all those bloody/smelly ER scenes). But anyway, I started doing this thing that most rape counselors do. A woman got raped taking her trash out at night. "I'll never take my trash out at night," I thought. A woman got raped after putting an ad in the paper to sell a car and stabbed 17 times, too. "Well, I'll always use a car dealership from now on." A woman got raped after her car broke down and she accepted a ride from a "good samaritan." I thought... well, you see how it goes. Finally, I got a victim who had been raped sleeping in her own bed at night behind locked doors and windows. Now what am I going to do to stop myself from being raped, eh? I realized all my rules were senseless, and I could take the trash out and sell my car from now on, too.

The truth is, any woman can get raped in any circumstance. Daytime? yep. By a person you know and trust? Absolutely. By a cop helping you? Surely. So I learned a lot of self-defense and five lovely ways to kill people with my bare hands, and I'd do it, no doubt of it. I'd do it and enjoy it, probably, bad me. If he has a gun, I get raped. That's the horrible reality.
I get that and never thought about all that. Thanks for sharing your insight here. And good on you for going into rape counseling. It may not have been easy, but it's necessary, and I'm sure you helped a lot of women. I wish I had sought counseling myself.

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And not to derail, but the desire to "spread the blame" cuts across all kinds of tragedies.

My kid's driver ed teacher (who is a regular font of urban legends) told his students about a pick-up truck driver who, while reading a text from his girlfriend, plowed into two people on a motorcycle who weren't wearing helmets, killing them.

Who was to blame, and at what percent, he asked them. Amazingly, all of the kids thought the texting girlfriend was at least 10% but as much as 50% to blame. Nevermind that the driver had no business reading texts while driving.

Humans are strange creatures.

/derail
Wow, that does surprise me! I don't even know how...why would anyone think it was the girlfriend's fault? That's very interesting. And no blame went to the motorcyclists who weren't wearing their helmets? Not that it should have (nor do I think going w/o a helmet is a good idea), but I'm surprised they would place so much blame on the girlfriend and the motorcyclists.

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Regardless, the rape is still not the fault of the people who did or did not know she needed fare.

Doesn't mean they shouldn't have been a little more generous. I am sure we could all be a little more generous if we tried. But it's beside the point: rape is always 100% the fault of the rapist.
It's hard enough for the rape victim to understand this. Trust me. I know. I still have my doubts once in awhile...it's not easy to believe that no fault lies with yourself and your own actions. Rape victims don't need the world placing blame on anyone except the rapist when they place enough blame on themselves.
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Old 06-08-2012, 07:01 PM   #34
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I think the outcry would come from why the driver got the sack. Say he turns her away at 3am in a rough part of town for the sake of 20p and is sacked...people would see the sacking as excessive. More than a few of our papers would milk it for all they could.
Maybe. But if I was the driver, I wouldn't bet my job on it.
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Old 06-08-2012, 07:05 PM   #35
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I've been short of money before because they have this system on the bus now you have to put the exact change into the bus or you can't get on and bus fair is like 77p for me to get home.
I was wondering about this. Where I live, the coin box doesn't count your money. So people often put in way less than the cash fare. And bus drivers tend to avoid confrontation. So if someone was a little short, they could get on the bus, no problem.
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Old 06-08-2012, 07:12 PM   #36
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I was wondering about this. Where I live, the coin box doesn't count your money. So people often put in way less than the cash fare. And bus drivers tend to avoid confrontation. So if someone was a little short, they could get on the bus, no problem.
That pisses me off so much! Makes me think of our "coffee fund" at work. I see so many people brew their k-cup without paying for it, and it pisses me off. People just assume they are entitled to do whatever they want.
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Old 06-08-2012, 07:18 PM   #37
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Bus fares have been changing a lot this past year so I would bet the last time she took the bus she had the right change and this time they upped it (took it today and it was 77p a week or two ago and it's gone up to a 1.05 to get home now). It's been creeping up slowly and if there was that machine they have which you put the money in, you don't get change back.

Once a bus driver a few months ago let me on for free because they bought these new machines in and I only had a 5 on me for the bus and they aren't allowed to carry change on so he put me on as a pensioner. Was very nice but then my bus driver is lovely like that he always talks to me.

At work I was serving a customer and our card machines stopped working the guy only had his card on him and the other guy behind him offered to put it all on his order the conversation went something like:

Him: 'go on put it on my order I've got enough change'.

So I put it on his order and the other guy who only had his debit card said: 'Aww that's kind of you I can't do that, I'll go draw some money out for you I bought a fair bit'

and the nice guy replied back 'No no need too. I have enough change it's not going to dent me one bit!'

So he paid for this other guys meal. It was really sweet. I see this all the time from customers at work.
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Old 06-08-2012, 07:20 PM   #38
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How much is 20p?
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Old 06-08-2012, 07:25 PM   #39
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This is so tragic, but as others have said, the only culprit here was the rapist. No one else is responsible for the actions of that reprehensible individual.

That said, there's something to be said for general everyday compassion. I would like to think that in times when someone is so close to the fare and there are no more busses coming for hours, that a bus driver could make an announcement over the intercom explaining the situation and see if anyone had the money to spare?

I know I see people jumping on and off the bus all the time. I just figure they're asking if it is the correct bus or not. But if the driver announced a situation like the above, I'd be out of my seat in a second to help, and I think a lot of others would too. I'd hate for anyone to be stuck 15 miles from home, scared and alone.
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Old 06-08-2012, 07:27 PM   #40
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Old 06-08-2012, 07:29 PM   #41
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Old 06-08-2012, 07:33 PM   #42
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I think there's another reason why we spread around the blame. Because every action has a reaction.

She didn't have enough money for the fare so she wasn't able to ride the bus at 3 am. She wasn't prepared.

The bus driver didn't cut her any slack so she stayed on the streets. No one donated money so she still stayed on the streets. She was at the wrong place at the wrong time because of lack of preparedness and the following lack of charity.

The rape is 100% on the rapist, absolutely. Being in the wrong place at the wrong time is on the girl, the bus driver, and the fellow passengers.

Not saying it's necessarily a guilt line, just that all of our actions and lack of actions have consequences and I think that's partially where the spread the blame comes from.
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Old 06-08-2012, 07:36 PM   #43
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I think there is a big difference between giving someone on the street money when they beg and helping out with a small amount, that wouldn't hurt you. She was alone, it was late and it was the last bus. There was no reason not to do it. Even if you had given money to 'professional' beggars all day long. And besides, if she had planned to 'scam' anyone, she wouldn't have any money at all. She just didn't have the full fare.
And yes, I think everyone is at fault. Maybe not by law but morally.

Just because nobody writes stuff like that down and a bunch of other people vote on it and claim it to be right, doesn't mean it wouldn't be the right thing to do.

I'm tired of people with stupid excuses. If it's in your power just frickin help. It doesn't hurt you. Do it because it's the right thing.
What youre saying makes sense, but when you're asked for money all day long from various people for various reasons, an extended hand is an extended hand. It's very callous, obviously. But I'd worry myself sick if I thought "what if" every time I didn't give someone change.

I'm not saying I wouldn't give if she directly asked me. Just that the situation, for a lot of people, happens all day long to the point where ignoring a person asking for money is like breathing. I don't even look at them anymore. On the train, outside, wherever.

ETA: I should specify that this is in big cities, where I've lived. Visiting my mom in the small Maryland town she lives in definitely lowers my guard and I'm less suspicious of people.

Also, the one time I was pick pocketed in Paris, it was because a woman was wailing on the train and said she neede help. I was so distracted by my concern for her that I didn't notice her partner reach into my pocket and steal my iPhone.

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Old 06-08-2012, 07:43 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by The_Ink_Goddess View Post
As horrible as it is, there's actually no connection between being raped and getting kicked off the bus. It's not exactly the bus driver's fault, which I feel the headline/article kinda implies. It's no-one's fault but that prick teenager.

Agreed. But it's still heartess to throw a young woman on to the streets at 3 am.

I'm not surprised -- it's a sign of the times. Why can't people just be good to oneanother?
When I was in Barbados ths summer I didn't realise that you needed to have the esact coin to throw into a box nest to the driver. I didn'thave that coin, only a larger note and some foreigb currency, so I prepared to get off the bus lugging my suitcase behind me. One of the passengers called me back and paid my fare. I offered her a pound in return, but she refused it. I was surprised -- but OTH it's really just a normal thing to do.
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Old 06-08-2012, 08:09 PM   #45
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The driver could have cut her some slack.
The driver was most likely expressly forbidden from doing so at risk of his job.

I don't know about you but every time I catch a late night train several people beg me for fare. I am sure faretakers and drivers are not allowed to accept any excuses or delay and not to be heartless but I can see why.

In this case she had real and dire need but rule makers don't allow exception. I give people change when I feel I should but I know many of them are just beggars. No doubt I have gotten it wrong more than once and refused someone in real need.
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Old 06-08-2012, 08:21 PM   #46
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Another report here, with some additional details:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...-the-fare.html

Says the woman pleaded with the driver for eight minutes before being turfed off the bus, 20p short of the 5 fare, and her offer to get money from a cash machine was rejected.


ETA: And another one here:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...hort-fare.html

Some particularly distressing details, particularly regarding the mother's experience.

Last edited by RobJ; 06-08-2012 at 08:28 PM. Reason: Added second link
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Old 06-08-2012, 09:29 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by missesdash View Post
Yeah I don't think it's necessary to go the whole "she knew!" route. She knew what? That she'd get raped? Maybe she lost her wallet, maybe she'd been mugged. Hell, maybe she was drunk. And even if she was trying to scam the driver (say she had the money) the worst outcome, in her mind, was that she'd have to walk.
Hell, sometimes, people just forget things.

This still shocks my friends who have known me for years: I forget names really easily. In fact, my friend George once watched in shock as I called him every name BUT George for almost 7 names. "Hey, Alex...er...Paul, er, Mike, er...GEORGE!"

I can easily imagine forgetting the money for the buss, even if you brought your wallet - especially if you use a debit or credit card all the time.

All the blame lands squarely on the fucking useless excuse for a sentient that raped her.
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Old 06-08-2012, 09:41 PM   #48
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Zoombie, that is bad. LOL But I know what you mean about forgetting things. My husband is notorious for it.
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Old 06-08-2012, 09:48 PM   #49
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I'm not surprised -- it's a sign of the times. Why can't people just be good to oneanother?
People do all sorts of minor-yet-shockingly-unkind things. When I was hugely pregnant, I was returning from a business trip. (I was so far along that I was at the edge of being allowed air travel.) It was past midnight and we were one of the last flights in. I fetched my suitcase and hustled out to catch a shuttle bus to the extended parking lot. I make a point not to pack more than I can manage, so I didn't need any help with my bag, but because of my size and exhaustion, I was a little slow hauling my suitcase up the stairs and onto the bus.

The man behind me put his elbow in my big, pregnant belly and shoved me aside, muttering, "Let's GO!"

It was such a little thing, especially compared to this story, but so hurtful and pointlessly mean. Gah. People...
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Old 06-08-2012, 10:13 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by aruna View Post
Agreed. But it's still heartess to throw a young woman on to the streets at 3 am.

I'm not surprised -- it's a sign of the times. Why can't people just be good to oneanother?
When I was in Barbados ths summer I didn't realise that you needed to have the esact coin to throw into a box nest to the driver. I didn'thave that coin, only a larger note and some foreigb currency, so I prepared to get off the bus lugging my suitcase behind me. One of the passengers called me back and paid my fare. I offered her a pound in return, but she refused it. I was surprised -- but OTH it's really just a normal thing to do.
I agree with you except for the bolded. It's not a sign of the times, it's a sign that people can be not very nice. Which has always been true.
Take off those rose-tinted specs when you look to the past.
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