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Old 05-03-2012, 04:23 PM   #1
Teinz
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A sane and rational Glenn Beck

http://web.gbtv.com/media/video.jsp?...ic_id=24584158

Geert Wilders promoting his book "Marked for Death: Islam's War Against the West and Me" on GBTV.

Geert is spewing the same arguments with which he has dominated the Dutch integration debate for the past few years. Glenn on the other hand seems rational and doesn't buy into it. Feel free to shoot holes in Geerts' theory, it ain't that hard.

But it made me think. Hate and fear of Islam is very much present in the Netherlands. At least within a certain part of our population. Of course, the U.S. have Terry Jones, but other than that, I get the impression Islam is kind of a non-issue. Am I right about that? Can anyone tell me why this is? After all, it wasn't Amsterdam being attacked by Al Qaeda. We did have a political murder by a muslim. Mohammed Bouyeri, who killed Theo van Gogh, a dutch filmmaker, but other than that it has been pretty peaceful.

Your thoughts?

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Old 05-03-2012, 04:52 PM   #2
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The US definitely has anti-Islam actions cropping up.

Anti-Sharia law, laws:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_864389.html

The so-called Ground Zero Mosque (which was neither at ground zero nor a mosque):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park51

And actual mosque construction challenges:
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmem...ock_constr.php

But I suspect we aren't getting the same as some European nations because our anti-immigrant people are directed against immigration from Central and South America, so they don't synthesize as easily as our anti-muslim people.

I gather that in Europe a lot of the anti-immigration crowd are anti-immigration from primarily islamic nations? Is that right.
If so, it would seem to point toward a convergence of those two views in Europe where they diverge in America.
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Old 05-03-2012, 05:01 PM   #3
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It's an understatement to say anti-Islam sentiment is strong in the USA.

Take the brewhaha over the "Ground Zero Mosque" for instance.

And the whole TSA bullshit is because of anti-terrorist measures. And the ongoing defense of TSA is the need to prevent another 9-11.
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Old 05-03-2012, 05:11 PM   #4
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Pardon my lack of research here, but it seems to me that you did have an author or cortoonist killed on your streets, didn't you?

There is plenty of anti islam here, and will probably continue to be as long as there is a percieved thread and/or until the Muslim community makes a strong and consistant stand against extremism.
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Old 05-03-2012, 07:33 PM   #5
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I gather that in Europe a lot of the anti-immigration crowd are anti-immigration from primarily islamic nations? Is that right.
Indeed there are, or I should say "were", large waves of immigration from Marrocco and Turkey. They arrived here in the seventies, mostly on instigation of businesses looking for cheap labor or people who would do the jobs Dutch people refused to do anymore. Right-wing political parties of the time facilitated this immigration, because they didn't want to stand in the way of commerce.

Strange thing is; third generation immigrants are increasingly finding their way in our society. Most of them speak Dutch well (although they usually retain their own language), go to university and start to pop up in high profile jobs or politics. Yet the more they seem to succeed in whatever it is they are doing, the more endangered we seem to feel as a society. Back when they were hauling garbage, or were invisible in grim factories, no one seemed to care. They were allowed their mosque's and no one talked about how they kept their wives in check. But now things are different.

Is this the same for the children and grand-children of South American immigrants in the U.S.?
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Old 05-03-2012, 07:35 PM   #6
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Take the brewhaha over the "Ground Zero Mosque" for instance.
Yeah, I forgot about that.
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Old 05-03-2012, 07:39 PM   #7
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Pardon my lack of research here, but it seems to me that you did have an author or cortoonist killed on your streets, didn't you?

There is plenty of anti islam here, and will probably continue to be as long as there is a percieved thread and/or until the Muslim community makes a strong and consistant stand against extremism.
It was the filmmaker Theo van Gogh, who immediatly rose to saintlike proportions, although he consistently called any and all Muslims "goat-fuckers". Ofcourse that's not an excuse to kill him, on the contrary, but it wasn't a nice man.

What kind of consistant stand against extremism do you have in mind. What would you accept as enough?
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Old 05-03-2012, 08:02 PM   #8
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My mother believes Islam is in opposition to Christianity, that the anti-Christ will come from an Muslim country, and that the final battle of God versus Satan as predicted in the book of Revelation will be carried out in the Middle East. America must choose which side they are on.

She thinks the Muslims are secretly infiltrating every nation and gaining territory, and that they want to replace U.S. law with Sharia law. That they want world domination, basically.

She's not crazy, per se. She's also not discriminatory against Muslims on a person by person basis. She is a very loving person, but she will try to "convert" any Muslim she encounters. lol

Basically, she has a huge amount of fear, and listens to a lot of shit on tv and youtube, and I try almost every day to encourage her to stop listening/watching it.

I think a lot of these people operate out of fear, and not necessarily hate. It was the same with communism. And it's sad, because religion is supposed to bring comfort and sense of trust in God, along with love for each other.
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Old 05-03-2012, 08:43 PM   #9
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Two reasons.

First, the Netherlands is (or was) a heterogeneous ethnic nation, with a dense population. The number of Muslims seems to be estimated at 5-6%.

The US Muslim population is at .6%, one tenth that of the Netherlands, and our population is spread out geographically. Many Americans never even see a Muslim, or it's a rarity.

Second, although still a predominantly ethnically white population, the US is far more ethnically mixed in the first place. African Americans are about 12%, Hispanics 16% Asians 5%.

There is not as much an identification of national ethnicity as there is in most European countries.

There is still quite a bit of anti-Muslim feeling, but it pales beside the anti-immigrant attitudes mostly aimed at Latinos. And that's simply a factor of numbers.

One of the drafters of Arizona's harsh anti illegal immigrant law has stated directly that the main objective of the law is to discourage the influx of people who will all too soon change the demographic nature of our nation.

In other words, what is to become of the America we know and love when whites cease to be the majority race?

I can guarantee that if Muslims started immigrating in large numbers you'd see a backlash here that would make the Dutch look tame.
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Old 05-03-2012, 09:12 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrissy View Post
My mother believes Islam is in opposition to Christianity, that the anti-Christ will come from an Muslim country, and that the final battle of God versus Satan as predicted in the book of Revelation will be carried out in the Middle East. America must choose which side they are on.

She thinks the Muslims are secretly infiltrating every nation and gaining territory, and that they want to replace U.S. law with Sharia law. That they want world domination, basically.

She's not crazy, per se. She's also not discriminatory against Muslims on a person by person basis. She is a very loving person, but she will try to "convert" any Muslim she encounters. lol

Basically, she has a huge amount of fear, and listens to a lot of shit on tv and youtube, and I try almost every day to encourage her to stop listening/watching it.

I think a lot of these people operate out of fear, and not necessarily hate. It was the same with communism. And it's sad, because religion is supposed to bring comfort and sense of trust in God, along with love for each other.
Sigh...one of my cousins, and some other family members from the "deep south" would agree with your mom. One is Catholic, the others are Southern Baptist.

The saddest part is, this view couldn't be farther from the truth. But I guess when you know that your religion is the The Religion, chances are you won't spend any time researching and truly trying to understand other religious practices and beliefs. If more religious folk did that, I don't think we'd have so many of the same problems we have today, or at least not to the same degree.
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Old 05-03-2012, 09:28 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrissy View Post
She thinks the Muslims are secretly infiltrating every nation and gaining territory, and that they want to replace U.S. law with Sharia law. That they want world domination, basically.

She's not crazy, per se. She's also not discriminatory against Muslims on a person by person basis. She is a very loving person, but she will try to "convert" any Muslim she encounters. lol
That's basically how my mother, being Reformed, used to think about Catholics. Now, her attention has shifted to Muslims too.

I think you're right; fear is at the basis of it all. But also, in order for her worldview to be right, any other worldview has to be wrong. And because the basis of her faith is irrational, her rejection of other faiths has to be aswell. She doesn't know anything about Islam, but she's adamant it's wrong nonetheless. That's what religion does for her.
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Old 05-03-2012, 09:34 PM   #12
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Two reasons.

First, the Netherlands is (or was) a heterogeneous ethnic nation, with a dense population. The number of Muslims seems to be estimated at 5-6%.
Correct, although for the most part of the nineteenth and twentieth century, we've been divided by lines within Christianity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rugcat View Post
The US Muslim population is at .6%, one tenth that of the Netherlands, and our population is spread out geographically. Many Americans never even see a Muslim, or it's a rarity.

Second, although still a predominantly ethnically white population, the US is far more ethnically mixed in the first place. African Americans are about 12%, Hispanics 16% Asians 5%.

There is not as much an identification of national ethnicity as there is in most European countries.
I'm surprised by this, actually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rugcat View Post
There is still quite a bit of anti-Muslim feeling, but it pales beside the anti-immigrant attitudes mostly aimed at Latinos. And that's simply a factor of numbers.

One of the drafters of Arizona's harsh anti illegal immigrant law has stated directly that the main objective of the law is to discourage the influx of people who will all too soon change the demographic nature of our nation.
The above is in accordance with the goals of Wilders.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rugcat View Post
In other words, what is to become of the America we know and love when whites cease to be the majority race?

I can guarantee that if Muslims started immigrating in large numbers you'd see a backlash here that would make the Dutch look tame.
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Old 05-03-2012, 10:05 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Teinz View Post
That's basically how my mother, being Reformed, used to think about Catholics. Now, her attention has shifted to Muslims too.

I think you're right; fear is at the basis of it all. But also, in order for her worldview to be right, any other worldview has to be wrong. And because the basis of her faith is irrational, her rejection of other faiths has to be aswell. She doesn't know anything about Islam, but she's adamant it's wrong nonetheless. That's what religion does for her.
Yep.

My mom has tried to study Islam. I'm just not real sure about her source materials. Her conclusion is that whole "world domination" theory I mentioned.

I've tried to refer her to the Old Testament of the Christian Bible, and what that must look like to the average person, what with God going around smiting everyone. It's not a clear representation of Christianity, either.

I wish she would just CHILL sometimes.
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