Read Books By AWers!

Welcome to the AbsoluteWrite Water Cooler! Please read The Newbie Guide To Absolute Write

editing for authors ad

A publisher or agency using Google ads to solicit your novel probably isn't anyone you want to write for.


Go Back   Absolute Write Water Cooler > Pop Culture > QUILTBAG
Register FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-29-2010, 09:31 PM   #1
Diana Hignutt
Escaping to Freedom
 
Diana Hignutt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Paris
Posts: 8,411
Diana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
The "T" Party.

I was thinking, what the hey, why not start a little thread so that those of us in the middle corner of the QLTBAG, or those interested in tg issues, could have a little place of our own.

I'll post the odd bit of transgender info, tidbits, thoughts, and field questions here and there, and welcome others to do the same.

This will probably go over like a lead balloon. I know we have some "T" folks here, but most are "going stealth" as we say in our circles. But everyone is welcome to our little party, and respectful inquiries will be answered honestly. There is no question that I will not answer (probably).

Let's party!
Diana Hignutt is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2010, 11:47 PM   #2
Ruv Draba
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,114
Ruv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
Question

Hi Diana.. Thanks for kicking this thread off. I have many gay and lesbian friends, but no real-life transgendered friends. I'm interested in how gender identity develops, at least in an anecdotal sense. I think that transgendered people must have a lot to contribute to this.

Here's my tale...

I was born a boy and first started feeling consciously boyish (as opposed to simply childish) at age three or four. Beyond whatever cues my parents might have given me, there were things I did when played alone that boys do far more than girls -- building things, knocking them down, studying how things moved, collecting things that were practical. I embraced that sort of stuff with a passion.

But not all boyish stuff. I could be fascinated with a frisbee or a boomerang or a shuttlecock, but footballs and fast-moving ball games bored me. So when my peers hit middle childhood, many of my male friends played games I wasn't interested in. They'd be out collaborating in hero stories about hitting and catching while I'd be studying ants under a magnifying glass or collecting unusual rocks. I've certainly felt male all my life, but well before puberty I felt that some kids were uber-male -- practicing their hairy-chested hunterness, if you will. That changed a bit in my early 30s -- I'm still not sure why. For some reason, sports jocks seemed less 'male' to me, and for the most part they now see me as very male and I've never been able to account for that, though I think it may have something to do with social confidence.

It seems to me that gender identity has a physical component (what I look like, and what I can do), a psychological component (what I feel like), and a social component (how I like to interact, how people perceive me), and that these things are all more of a spectrum than just a couple of poles with buckets at the end.

My question is: how was it for you growing up? Which bits felt stronger to you? Which bits felt weaker? How did those things settle, and how is it for you now?
Ruv Draba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2010, 11:52 PM   #3
Zoombie
Vengeful Crystaline Hawk 45C
AW Moderator
 
Zoombie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: The Sunder
Posts: 38,200
Zoombie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsZoombie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsZoombie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsZoombie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsZoombie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsZoombie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsZoombie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsZoombie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsZoombie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsZoombie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsZoombie is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
Hey, Mythbusters have made floating lead balloons and it worked just fine!

Hi Di!
__________________
2068 Series: Debris Dreams (Published), Shattered Sky (being Edited), Luna's Lament (Waiting.)

Shard Series: Worldshard (being beta'd), Lifeshard (done!), Soulshard (Done!), Peaceshard (43k/80k)

Invasion 2071 (With Editors)

Read my blog: Quantum Spin Plates

BUY MY BOOK HERE!
Zoombie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2010, 09:14 AM   #4
Ruv Draba
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,114
Ruv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
An interesting answer, P -- thank you. Here's a follow-up question...

Among the adults I know, a lot seem to get a big part of their identity from gender-role. Some of my male friends retreat into male ritual when they're upset. Some of my female friends too. It seems to give them a sense of comfort and purpose, even when they're conflicted and confused. Guys who are cranky with one another can reform bonds over 'traditional interests' -- even when one or the other may not be interested. I've seen women do this too -- bond on gender when interpersonally they're not entirely happy. Likewise, I've seen women flirt with men they're not attracted to just to soothe them. Guys will sometimes (perhaps less often) do the reverse.

Do you do any of these things? How do you restore comfort and ease with people you're conflicted with? How do you soothe yourself with internal conflicts?
Ruv Draba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2010, 09:17 AM   #5
Mara
Clever User Title
 
Mara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 1,964
Mara has a double-platinum reputationMara has a double-platinum reputationMara has a double-platinum reputationMara has a double-platinum reputationMara has a double-platinum reputationMara has a double-platinum reputationMara has a double-platinum reputation
EDIT: I'm going to leave this like it is, but I just want to add that I apologize for any of it that sounds mopey. I'm REALLY happy now, I just wanted to give some insight into how I felt growing up. Cause until fairly recently, the only image I ever got of trans people from the media was always ridiculous and made me feel like I couldn't be trans because I wasn't "girly" enough. We're all different and have different paths, but usually there's some common trends of feeling like something was wrong but not necessarily knowing what it was.
----------------------------
*waves*

I'm 27, I look male (and my driver's license says that I am), identify as female, and am still in the closet offline. (My mother and two best friends know.) I have a female nervous system (brain definitely, but my nerves feel like they're wired for a female body) and a male hormone system. I think of it as a type of intersex condition.*

*Oddly enough, brain scan studies have started showing that it may very well be that. I know I was born this way, but it'd be awesome to have physical proof one day.

I won't go into my entire history cause it's still painful, but I've known I was way outside gender norms for my physical sex for a long time, got really depressed when puberty hit and my body no longer felt right, and struggled with it for a long time. Had serious depression, relationship issues, body issues, and stuff like that. When I thought about the future, I couldn't envision myself at all. (I recently learned that some other trans people felt like this before realizing they were trans.) I didn't become suicidal, but I lost all of my drive and thought I could never be happy.

After a bad, brief marriage, I finally got over my fear enough to do some research and soul-searching. And I confirmed what I'd always known deep down. And also corrected some beliefs I'd had about it basically being impossible for me to transition and other stupid misconceptions.

(I've had trans friends online for a long time, and have been suspiciously and fanatically pro-LGBT since my late teens and I never could figure out why I took it so personally when I was "straight." My own identity was right there in front of me, but I didn't want to look.)

In June 2009, I came out online as bi-gender, with the caveat that my male side didn't feel as real and might be a social construct, but was sorta needed for self-defense. (And also, I worked so hard for all my life to make up this male character I played for everyone, and I didn't want to kill him off.)

Some time later (since I've been on this site, actually), I realized that I'm most happy when I can forget that I'm allegedly male, and that I can envision myself growing old as a woman but not as a fake man. So I've decided that I need to transition. (But right now, I'm not financially ready to start hormones or even afford to visit a therapist to get a diagnosis allowing it.) I'm not in a huge rush, though. I waited this long, I can wait longer.

I'm also a lesbian, and pretty much every woman I ever dated figured it out before I did. (While individuals can be exceptions, there's usually a big difference between straight male instincts and lesbian instincts in a relationship.) Oddly enough, every woman I've ever dated has been bisexual, even when I was pretending to be a man.

After a lot of research and soulsearching, I'm very excited about my future. I know I'm on the right path. About the only thing that bothers me is wondering about whether I'll ever be accepted as a "real lesbian" or if I'll always be seen as a wannabe or, at best, nice but really gross because of my testosterone-poisoning. (It's not even about dating, just my right to say "I'm a lesbian" without feeling like I have to be ready to justify my existance.)

I'm a transgender, bi-gender, genderqueer, transsexual, slightly bi-curious lesbian. I'm tempted to work really hard and cheat with my definitions just so I can collect all the rest of the QILTBAG categories. :p

So, yeah, my life's kinda complicated right now, but I'm slowly working things out. If anyone has any questions, feel free to ask.
__________________
I can never remember to update this signature.

Last edited by Mara; 01-30-2010 at 10:41 AM.
Mara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-30-2010, 09:32 AM   #6
Mara
Clever User Title
 
Mara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 1,964
Mara has a double-platinum reputationMara has a double-platinum reputationMara has a double-platinum reputationMara has a double-platinum reputationMara has a double-platinum reputationMara has a double-platinum reputationMara has a double-platinum reputation
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruv Draba View Post
An interesting answer, P -- thank you. Here's a follow-up question...

Among the adults I know, a lot seem to get a big part of their identity from gender-role. Some of my male friends retreat into male ritual when they're upset. Some of my female friends too. It seems to give them a sense of comfort and purpose, even when they're conflicted and confused. Guys who are cranky with one another can reform bonds over 'traditional interests' -- even when one or the other may not be interested. I've seen women do this too -- bond on gender when interpersonally they're not entirely happy. Likewise, I've seen women flirt with men they're not attracted to just to soothe them. Guys will sometimes (perhaps less often) do the reverse.

Do you do any of these things? How do you restore comfort and ease with people you're conflicted with? How do you soothe yourself with internal conflicts?
Yes, I do this. I'll retreat into whichever gender role is readily available and most useful when I'm upset.

When I feel scared that I'm going to be rejected for being a woman, I retreat into "male protecter/provider" mode, where my self-worth is based on the idea that I can protect and provide for others.

When I'm frustrated at the idea of hateful comments directed at trans women by men, I retreat into "fighting man" mode, where my self-worth is based on being able to beat someone up. (I'm not violent and have never been in a real fight. It's just a mental thing, where I convince myself that I could beat someone in a fight if necessary.)

When I'm frustrated at the same kinda hateful comments but from women, I instead retreat into "catty passive-aggressive b*tch mode." And judging from the few times I've done it, I'm REAL good at it. I also retreat into this mode when I have feelings for a straight girl and she likes a man that I think is a jerk.

When I feel ashamed of my body, I often compensate by paying extra attention when guys hold doors for me or help me change a tire or otherwise act chivalrous, and try to pretend it's because they respect my femininity. (Of course, most don't even know, but it's how I cope.)

Lots of other examples, but you get the idea.

When I'm not upset, I don't really adhere to gender roles much at all, and generally try to minimize them. There was an old, ignorant stereotype about trans people always being ultra-stereotypical and conformist in an attempt to overcompensate, but it's rarely true. (A few generations ago, it was, since you had to be ultra-stereotypical to be allowed to transition. But not anymore. Someone send Julie Bindel a memo. )
__________________
I can never remember to update this signature.

Last edited by Mara; 01-30-2010 at 09:35 AM.
Mara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2010, 11:45 AM   #7
Ruv Draba
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,114
Ruv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
Question

I just want to write a big 'thank you' to the people who've responded so candidly to my question. While I realise that I'm not the primary beneficiary of this forum, I'm extremely grateful for the comments. I think they help me as a writer and as a human being. So, my sincere thanks.

I have another question to add to the mix. I'm not sure if it's moral, sociological or political, but it's certainly writerly and here it is...
Why do people whose gender identity is strongly aligned (I mean physical with social and psychological) get so invested in gender rituals?
Some of it can be explained as sexual competition I suppose. Many species have courting-dances; there's no reason to imagine that humanity in general doesn't have such things too.

But some gender rituals clearly aren't to attract mates. Men and women do a lot of gender-bonding, for instance, and we seem to have special rules for bonding across genders. We also have rules that seem to rehearse pecking-orders...

My broad question is: how much do you think we actually need? How much is atavistic? From your personal perspective, how much do you find useful? How much is just a pain to be negotiated? I don't imagine that there's a single answer here. I don't have a single answer myself.

My personal perspective is that I found it all utterly stupid -- until I started working in business. Through my teens and my work as a scientist I thought courtship rituals, chest-beating rituals, seduction rituals idiotic. If you want to make friends, make friends thought I. If you want to tell someone you're attracted to them, just tell them -- so my opinion was much like Polenth's.

But Mara also made an interesting comment: the one about 'self-defence'. Just on puberty I moved states and switched schools. The school I went to was a bit rougher than the school I left, and I found myself instantly in a sea of male hormones. Being smallish at the time I got used as a bit of a hockey-puck in male aggression -- I'm not suggesting that there was a lot of bullying, but there was a lot of roughhouse play to assert masculine supremacy.

Having no idea what to do with it, I simply copied it and did it first, and harder, to the main protagonists. For instance, there was some strange tradition among kids of a particular year to hit each other hard in the arm -- e.g. for a joke that fell flat, or a bit of silliness, or even for a difference of opinion. I had no desire to hit anyone in the arm for any reason, but I did it because doing so made others hit me in the arm less.

So: fake aggression creating self-defence. Of course, in doing so I added to the overall aggression level, and these days I'd do things very differently.

In business a lot of transactions seem to involve seduction, sexual assertion and sexual submission -- even when sex has no place in the transaction. I have no idea why this is, but it seems to be the case. I run a company and try and make my staff feel safe and valued. To my mind gender is part of their personality, but it's not who they are. However, we provide services for other organisations and their workplaces can be a bit of a jungle. On a daily basis we encounter all kinds of sexual aggression -- be it same-gender or intergender. I spend a lot of time with staff helping them negotiate it -- and while it's renowned for women in business to get a lot of it, my experience as an employer is that guys are on the receiving end just as much, from both genders, and have comparable difficulty handling it sometimes.

The other side of it though, is that sex sells. And here I don't just mean bouncing breasts and six-pack abs. For one thing, people can sell through gender-bonding far more easily than without. And cross-gender sales seem to work better when there's flirtation in the wings -- even if the flirtation is recognised by both parties as being utterly unserious. Whether I want it to be or not, it's there. For some strange reason trust seems to be wired into sex and gender-roles.

Your thoughts?
Ruv Draba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2010, 05:28 PM   #8
Mara
Clever User Title
 
Mara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 1,964
Mara has a double-platinum reputationMara has a double-platinum reputationMara has a double-platinum reputationMara has a double-platinum reputationMara has a double-platinum reputationMara has a double-platinum reputationMara has a double-platinum reputation
I think you make a bunch of really good points, and have little to add.

To some extent, I think the sex appeal thing is biologically wired and even affects our opinions of people we're not sexually attracted to. For example, male politicians who exhibit a certain "sexual" energy during their speeches often impress straight male voters. It's probably something we picked up before we learned to speak, an instinctive desire to follow people we think are virile and likely to survive. And maybe some gender rituals are part of that.

I really hate most gender rituals, but looking back, found that I adopted many of them anyway.

My personal theory is that we tend to imitate people we perceive as being the same gender. While growing up, I'd find myself mindlessly imitating girls instead of boys whenever I wasn't paying attention, which really caused me some confusion.

I especially noticed it during high school, where I accidentally flirted with a few guys without realizing it, even though I'm not really interested in guys and was terrified of being seen as gay and beaten up and ostracized.

I actually kinda like flirting with guys now, but I almost never get to do it, since I don't feel comfortable unless I absolutely know that they'd be comfortable with a pre-everything trans woman flirting with them.

And because I can't seem to envision being in a relationship with a guy, no matter how much I try, I'm pretty sure the flirting thing in part comes from wanting to feel more feminine.

Validation is an obsession for many pre-everything trans people and early transitioners, and I'm no exception. It's been an obsession for most of my life, and I'm sure it affects my adoption of gender rituals. (And I think most people, to a lesser extent, has some need to be validated in terms of gender, even if it's just acknowledgement that they're not part of the binary.)
__________________
I can never remember to update this signature.
Mara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2010, 08:47 PM   #9
kuwisdelu
there is always hope
 
kuwisdelu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: W. Lafayette, IN
Posts: 30,447
kuwisdelu is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskuwisdelu is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskuwisdelu is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskuwisdelu is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskuwisdelu is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskuwisdelu is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskuwisdelu is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskuwisdelu is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskuwisdelu is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskuwisdelu is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskuwisdelu is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
Great thread, Diana.

I have a character who decided he's transexual, so I'm glad you started this

Personally, I have a difficult time understanding gender divisions myself. I'm male and I identify as male, but the concept of "masculine" and "feminine" don't quite make sense to me. I find most of the males I'm attracted to have feminine traits and most of the females I'm attracted to have masculine traits.
__________________
(a blog.) ...last updated 28 April 2014
kuwisdelu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2010, 07:00 AM   #10
Mara
Clever User Title
 
Mara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 1,964
Mara has a double-platinum reputationMara has a double-platinum reputationMara has a double-platinum reputationMara has a double-platinum reputationMara has a double-platinum reputationMara has a double-platinum reputationMara has a double-platinum reputation
Quote:
Originally Posted by kuwisdelu View Post
Great thread, Diana.

I have a character who decided he's transexual, so I'm glad you started this

Personally, I have a difficult time understanding gender divisions myself. I'm male and I identify as male, but the concept of "masculine" and "feminine" don't quite make sense to me. I find most of the males I'm attracted to have feminine traits and most of the females I'm attracted to have masculine traits.
Being transgender is often more about gender identity than masculinity or femininity. For transsexuals, at least, it's about our bodies and brain chemistry and hormones not feeling right. Many transsexualr women are very masculine, and many transsexual men are very feminine, though both feel pressure to overcompensate in the other direction.

Other transgender people have other traits, but generally its something more than just masculinity or femininity. (But being transgender often makes us want to overcompensate by being more masculine or feminine.)

It's hard to explain, really. Think of it as "brain sex" vs. "gender stereotypes." Most transgender people have a different "brain sex" than expected, but might actually fit expected stereotypes sometimes.

To put it another way, male/female is biological. My genitals are biologically male, my mind is biologically female. And masculinity/femininity are social. I was socialized to be masculine, but have a tendency to veer toward feminine. But I'd still be transgender if I was completely masculine.

On the other hand, some percentage of masculinity/femininity probably really is biological. I'm just not sure how much.

Confusing, I know. There are entire books that try to explain the context.

And what's true for me isn't necessarily true for all transsexual people and especially not true for all transgender people.
__________________
I can never remember to update this signature.
Mara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2010, 08:18 AM   #11
Ruv Draba
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,114
Ruv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by kuwisdelu View Post
I find most of the males I'm attracted to have feminine traits and most of the females I'm attracted to have masculine traits.
I think it's awfully complicated. My gender identity is pretty simple: I'm a masculine, heterosexual, monogamous male -- but I still find it crazy.

As nearly as I can tell, when straight women and straight men like me, it's because I'm 'fatherly' -- even some who are older than me. But I've never been a parent and have no intentions of being one.

When much older men and women like me, it's because I'm either like a son they wished they had, or one I remind them of. For some reason, larger women who are my age or younger also want to mother me.

When gay guys like me it seems to be because I'm masculine, but respect them as men. When lesbian women like me it seems to be because I'm brotherly and understanding (except a couple who want to adopt me as her long-lost son, and one who seems to want to seduce me -- perhaps because I'm 'fatherly'?)

When straight people don't like me it's usually because I'm scary and forthright. Or because I'm Politically Incorrect in some unforgivable way. When gay people don't like me it's usually because I'm too scary or too male.

I have no idea what transgendered folk think of me... I've met too few and too briefly to know.

I don't know whence comes the 'you're very masculine' theme I get. I don't own a shed, don't much like sports and am more likely to be found reading a book or playing a guitar than fixing my car. I always try and observe decent table-manners, and I shower once or twice a day... Beats the hell out of me.

I've long since given up working out what sort of gender role I have in peoples' eyes. All I can conclude is that who I am to them seems to be much more about them than me. And apparently people borrow or recast our gender identities to fill in holes in their personal stories and meet all manner of otherwise unmet emotional needs.

If my life is complicated, it cannot be easy for people who are either trying to work out their gender identity, or trying to get people to see past their own habitual cues.

If you've ever suffered this, please accept my undiluted sympathies! What strange creatures we are! Please take heart that some days, folk of vanilla genditude suffer it too.
Ruv Draba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2010, 09:47 AM   #12
kuwisdelu
there is always hope
 
kuwisdelu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: W. Lafayette, IN
Posts: 30,447
kuwisdelu is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskuwisdelu is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskuwisdelu is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskuwisdelu is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskuwisdelu is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskuwisdelu is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskuwisdelu is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskuwisdelu is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskuwisdelu is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskuwisdelu is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskuwisdelu is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
"Vanilla genditude."

I have to use that sometime now.
__________________
(a blog.) ...last updated 28 April 2014
kuwisdelu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2010, 12:16 PM   #13
Mara
Clever User Title
 
Mara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 1,964
Mara has a double-platinum reputationMara has a double-platinum reputationMara has a double-platinum reputationMara has a double-platinum reputationMara has a double-platinum reputationMara has a double-platinum reputationMara has a double-platinum reputation
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruv Draba View Post
If my life is complicated, it cannot be easy for people who are either trying to work out their gender identity, or trying to get people to see past their own habitual cues.

If you've ever suffered this, please accept my undiluted sympathies! What strange creatures we are! Please take heart that some days, folk of vanilla genditude suffer it too.
You win ten Awesome Points for this.

Very good insight in the entire post.
__________________
I can never remember to update this signature.
Mara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2010, 01:02 PM   #14
Ruv Draba
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,114
Ruv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
Thanks for comments. I'm getting a lot out of this chat as I mentioned. I'd like to thank Diana for kicking it off, and also commend her for her good taste in not calling this thread 'The T-bag'.
Ruv Draba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2010, 03:52 PM   #15
Diana Hignutt
Escaping to Freedom
 
Diana Hignutt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Paris
Posts: 8,411
Diana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
My story has been told around AW a lot, but it fits here best, so...

One of my earilest memories: At three and a half years old I remember asking my mom if I could become a girl, because that's what I was supposed to be. This was a long time ago, in a less enlightened age, so my mom snapped, "Of course not, and don't ever let your father hear you say anything like that." Queue repression.

Here's a little article on myself and my wife from a few years ago:

http://www.philadelphiaweekly.com/ne...-38369969.html

Also, here's a short story of mine that deals with how gender identity dysphoria feels: ("The Compassion" from Transgender Tapestry)

http://www.ifge.org/Article211.phtml

I'll try and answer your questions later... (in great detail)

Last edited by Diana Hignutt; 02-01-2010 at 05:03 PM.
Diana Hignutt is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2010, 10:34 PM   #16
Diana Hignutt
Escaping to Freedom
 
Diana Hignutt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Paris
Posts: 8,411
Diana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruv Draba View Post

My question is: how was it for you growing up? Which bits felt stronger to you? Which bits felt weaker? How did those things settle, and how is it for you now?
Hi Ruv!

Now, I have a few minutes, I'll start on your questions.

How was it for me growing up?

As I mentioned just a post ago, I remember asking my mom if I could be a girl, and the answer was no. On the sly, I had my sister (4 yrs older) dress me up in her clothes occassionally. Stopped that at about 4 or so. It was made clear to me that this was not acceptable "boy" behavior, and so I tried to act more boyish. As a younger child I was teased for being a bit of a sissy, but I had friends, I wasn't an outcast.

After my parents got divorced, and I moved away from my friends, I didn't really make too many friends outside of school. I read a lot and watched a lot of TV. Or I'd play with my sister (and her friends, when they'd let me). I had a very active fantasy life. I was constantly imagining crazy scenarios where I would end up being transformed into a girl (some kind of virus, surgical mix-up at the hospital, space aliens, magic, etc.) As I approached puberty the fantasies escalated into obsession.

Depsite my vivid and prolific fantasy life, my obsession that some would call autogynaphila, I attempted to be masculine as possible. I played baseball and basketball (though not very well). I liked hiking, fishing and camping. Liked watching (American) football. As I got older, I began to think of my obsession as something that was perhaps tangled with loniless. I convinced myself that one day I would find a girl and those feelings would go away. I battled myself everyday. Wishing I was a girl. Wishing I didn't wish I was a girl. But no one could tell on the outside.

At 15 I started doing drugs to hide from my feelings....

To be continued...
Diana Hignutt is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 01:13 AM   #17
Zoombie
Vengeful Crystaline Hawk 45C
AW Moderator
 
Zoombie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: The Sunder
Posts: 38,200
Zoombie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsZoombie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsZoombie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsZoombie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsZoombie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsZoombie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsZoombie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsZoombie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsZoombie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsZoombie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsZoombie is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
Me growing up was really really boring, due to a well adjusted family, open and accepting parents, and a prolific amount of online roleplaying.
__________________
2068 Series: Debris Dreams (Published), Shattered Sky (being Edited), Luna's Lament (Waiting.)

Shard Series: Worldshard (being beta'd), Lifeshard (done!), Soulshard (Done!), Peaceshard (43k/80k)

Invasion 2071 (With Editors)

Read my blog: Quantum Spin Plates

BUY MY BOOK HERE!
Zoombie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 03:41 PM   #18
Diana Hignutt
Escaping to Freedom
 
Diana Hignutt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Paris
Posts: 8,411
Diana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoombie View Post
Me growing up was really really boring, due to a well adjusted family, open and accepting parents, and a prolific amount of online roleplaying.
You should try and appreciate just exactly how freaking lucky you are. Go hug your parents. Lots of trans folks lose their families.
Diana Hignutt is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 04:19 PM   #19
Diana Hignutt
Escaping to Freedom
 
Diana Hignutt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Paris
Posts: 8,411
Diana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsDiana Hignutt is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
Here's a couple of links for fun and research:

Read my short story "The Confessions of Frankenstein(GIRL)" online thanks to your local library. I post this because in the two stories I wrote for Transgender Tapestry I wrote the best descriptions of Gender Identity Dysphoria I've done, despite being wrapped in fiction:

http://connection.ebscohost.com/cont...4D050F7.ehctc1


Oh, and the best resource I know for anyone on transgender issues is The International Foundation of Gender Education, of which i am an active member. Their website:

www.ifge.org

I'll get back to my story and Ruv's questions later....

You know what might be helpful? Maybe a glossary of terms common in discussing trans issues. Stuff like Gender Identity Dysphoria: A deep psychological unease up to full blown hatred of one's birth gender. Would that sort of a thing be helpful?
Diana Hignutt is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 07:55 PM   #20
Zoombie
Vengeful Crystaline Hawk 45C
AW Moderator
 
Zoombie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: The Sunder
Posts: 38,200
Zoombie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsZoombie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsZoombie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsZoombie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsZoombie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsZoombie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsZoombie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsZoombie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsZoombie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsZoombie is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsZoombie is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diana Hignutt View Post
You should try and appreciate just exactly how freaking lucky you are. Go hug your parents. Lots of trans folks lose their families.
I hug them all the time!
__________________
2068 Series: Debris Dreams (Published), Shattered Sky (being Edited), Luna's Lament (Waiting.)

Shard Series: Worldshard (being beta'd), Lifeshard (done!), Soulshard (Done!), Peaceshard (43k/80k)

Invasion 2071 (With Editors)

Read my blog: Quantum Spin Plates

BUY MY BOOK HERE!
Zoombie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 07:59 PM   #21
Kitty Pryde
i luv you giant bear statue
AW Moderator
 
Kitty Pryde's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Lost Angeles
Posts: 9,093
Kitty Pryde is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsKitty Pryde is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsKitty Pryde is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsKitty Pryde is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsKitty Pryde is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsKitty Pryde is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsKitty Pryde is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsKitty Pryde is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsKitty Pryde is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsKitty Pryde is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsKitty Pryde is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
My friend Kalil is a trans guy who does hip-hop about trans identity and politics and issues. He performs as "Metahuman". It's quite good music and I think that one can learn a lot from it too:

http://www.myspace.com/metahumanmusic
Kitty Pryde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 09:28 PM   #22
maxmordon
You might well think that...
 
maxmordon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Venezuela
Posts: 10,252
maxmordon is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsmaxmordon is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsmaxmordon is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsmaxmordon is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsmaxmordon is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsmaxmordon is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsmaxmordon is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsmaxmordon is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsmaxmordon is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsmaxmordon is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsmaxmordon is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
I have always thought genitalia is weird.
__________________
"Life isnít divided into genres. Itís a horrifying, romantic, tragic, comical, science-fiction cowboy detective novel. You know, with a bit of pornography if you're lucky."
maxmordon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-02-2010, 10:50 PM   #23
sunandshadow
Impractical Fantasy Animal
 
sunandshadow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Posts: 4,620
sunandshadow should run for Presidentsunandshadow should run for Presidentsunandshadow should run for Presidentsunandshadow should run for Presidentsunandshadow should run for Presidentsunandshadow should run for President
I read a thread over on Literotica the other week where the original poster was saying "I feel mentally androgynous - not asexual, more like I'd be happiest if I could be male some days and female other days." And I though, that's me exactly! I don't identify as trans because I'm no less happy being female than I would be being male. But when I dream I'm male at least half the time, and I've found it very comforting and natural-feeling to roleplay a hermaphrodite character or a shapeshifter who could change gender. A herm sort of the reverse of the usual kind you see, basically one who looked male on the outside but also capable of getting pregnant and nursing children and being a mom.

I've also experienced that distressing state of being unable to picture a future for myself, so I really sympathize with that, I know how depressing it is.

Hmm, childhood - I am the oldest in my family, and was sort of a substitute son because my parents had two daughters and didn't intend to have more children (though there was a surprise boy when I was 13 ). I never got the impression my dad wanted me to be male or act male, he just wanted me to be interested in his hobbies of science and building stuff, and I do naturally enjoy that kind of stuff.

But physically I grew up as a fat kid and I don't have a very feminine face; I have this polycystic ovary syndrome/type 2 diabetes complex which is caused by a flaw in my digestive process, I metabolize one type of sugar into an estrogen precursor which screws up my hormone balance. All my life I've had people occasionally mistake me for male, except when I had really long hair, and I do wonder how much of my drive to imagine that it would be nice being male is because I'm an obvious failure at being an attractive female. I also wonder if my sexual preference for pretty somewhat feminine me is because I value that quality because I find it lacking in myself. Maybe not, because lots of women love 'bishounen', and some of them are very girly.

My hormone condition wasn't diagnosed or treated until I was 15, and even then the disease wasn't understood as well as it is now so it wasn't until I was 18 or 19 that I was actually told eating starches and sugars was what was keeping my hormones screwed up. By that point my appearance was pretty much set. For myself I'm fine with my body, but I want a man to fall in love with me, and it's really distressing that my appearance is inadequate for that dream to come true.
sunandshadow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2010, 12:35 AM   #24
Ruv Draba
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,114
Ruv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRuv Draba is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmordon View Post
I have always thought genitalia is weird.
What's weird is cutting them off plants and giving them to your mother.
Ruv Draba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2010, 12:39 AM   #25
maxmordon
You might well think that...
 
maxmordon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Venezuela
Posts: 10,252
maxmordon is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsmaxmordon is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsmaxmordon is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsmaxmordon is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsmaxmordon is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsmaxmordon is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsmaxmordon is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsmaxmordon is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsmaxmordon is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsmaxmordon is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsmaxmordon is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruv Draba View Post
What's weird is cutting them off plants and giving them to your mother.
Not counting the fact when said mother cooks the embryos and the skin slices of other animals to eat as breakfast.
__________________
"Life isnít divided into genres. Itís a horrifying, romantic, tragic, comical, science-fiction cowboy detective novel. You know, with a bit of pornography if you're lucky."
maxmordon is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Custom Search

If this site is helpful to you,
Please consider a voluntary subscription to defray ongoing expenses.

Buy Scrivener 2 for Mac OS X (Regular Licence)


All times are GMT +4.5. The time now is 04:38 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.