Word Count for Mainstream Fiction ???

There are many first time novels that are that long, or longer. When all other things are equal, the longer book is probably a harder sell, but if the book is better longer, you may be better off with the better book. No matter what anyone tells you, no one has been able to quantify that tradeoff.

If the book cannot be cut significantly, then the question is whether you can sell it as a long book. If it's a worthwhile book, you might as well try.

There is a tendency for people to zero in on length, mostly because it's so easy to quantify, but truthfully, many, many things go into what will make a book salable. If it's true that some random agent with a blog will reject all long books out of hand, it's also true that numerous random agents will reject most books out of hand for other reasons.

I always wonder about word count. It is physically impossible for me to write under 100,000 words.

It hurts me.


But I have to try. Yes,I will control myself and stay right at 100,000k.


*cries*

I think there's a big misconception about what "mainstream" really means. To pubishers, mainstream is not a genre, it's any book from any genre that will sell to the mainstream audience, all those millions of readers who do not specialize in reading genre novels, but who will read a novel from any genre, if it doesn't carry the genre label.

Stephen King and Dean Koontz are both mainstream writers. So is Colleen McCullough. So was Normon Mailer.

Word count matters for mainstream novels only in the sense that word length matters a first novel in any genre. Get much over 100,000 words, and publishers get nervous because most first novels lose money, and the thicker the novel, the more it costs to print, so teh more money it loses when it tanks

But a horror novel, a fantasy novel, a literary novel, a western novel, or any other type of novel can become a mainstream novel. As such, mainstream novels run the gamut in word length.

It's just that first novel nearly always have to come in somewhere around 100K, else publishers get very nervous.

Kitty27 said:

I always wonder about word count. It is physically impossible for me to write under 100,000 words.

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I'm the opposite. I get totally off track and start to pad like crazy when I pass about 80k.

DannySherbet said:

Ir's a shame there isn't a way for the 'overwriters' to donate their excess words to the 'underwriters'.

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Yes, it could be like a kidney transplant.

My epic came in over 150k.
Cutting was likened to self amputation--with a fork.
I'm a brilliant writer.
what?

*leans closer*
Is that giggling?

Actually, it enabled me to chop here and there, saving scenes for latter books..whether they'll be used or not is anyones guess, but I didn't want them trashed. Also, I was able to come in at a whole new angle, thus, get it down to the acceptable length for epic fantasy.

Doesn't mean J.K. Rowling and I are rubbing elbows. One day, however, I plan to move from someone who will be stripped and tossed into the moat of her fine castle to possible waiting on her?

No, no, really. If I could just write/sell and maybe have a candy bar wrapper with my book characters on it...Peter Jackson calling...

Huh.
Apparently my dreams are likened to my word count...they just keep going, and going, and going...

Sometimes, starting anew with the same story can bring about fresh ideas/plots/twists never foreseen when trying to weed through the mass.
However, if you despise having to sit down ever again with those characters and find yourself considering placing them INSIDE the brewing pot of tea...mayhaps it's time to put the manuscript in a dark drawer for another generation to discover--think Van Gogh--and start a whole new piece.

And as you choke on my advice...remember...I'm brilliant.


*frowns*

I SWEAR, I hear laugher.

*checks under couch*

Under 100,000? Wow. I thought 120,000 was the limit for mainstream. No?

If this were my work, I'd try to cut it down to 120k, then not worry about anything else but making it the best work possible. If cutting it compromises the story, then think about turning it into a series. Best of luck.

I like reading and writing the smaller novels (nothing over 300 pages paperback). Sorry but I could not even imagine writing a 355,000 word novel. That's like 3 novels for the price of one. I am in awe. The problem is that the re-writing would be incredible. A series may be a "continuation" but it is also a separate story usually. I did cut a very large sub plot out of a novel to make a separate novel of it. The sub plot was somewhere near 20K words and I took a second look at it and thought it was a complete novel, so I cut it out. My thing now is a "straight story." Try to make an absolutely perfect, tight, believable story in as few words as possible. Thank you Ian McEwan for the tip.

The word limit tends to matter most for first-time novelists. If you're already commercially published, you have more room to expand. If you have a proven track record, even better, and you may be able to sell a 200K novel. Anything longer than that, it becomes more difficult to say, but not impossible. And there are exceptions. Wasn't the Historian, a debut novel, like 1000 pages long? But anyway, the longer your manuscript, the more brilliant it should be.

this was posted a couple of years ago on here by another AWer...it was a blog by agent Colleen Lindsey on manuscript lengths for different genres...I clicked on it and voila...it was updated in September of this year

http://theswivet.blogspot.com/2008/03/on-word-counts-and-novel-length.html

very helpful and interesting indeed

Rena Andra said:

100k...That would be about 28.16 percent of the entire ms. I guess for lack of a better term, this ms is screwed.

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Been there, done that!

Don't under any circumstances get rid of the mss. Put it aside and review it 30 years later and still junk it. Turn parts of it into short stories.

I'm an over-writer. My very, very worst case was a first draft, first novel of almost 500,000 words. That's definitely over-writing. Obviously I have no shame -- I'm prepared to admit to doing stupid things.

1. The first useful thing I did was to find characters who didn't really contribute seriously to the story, and delete every scene in which they appeared.

2. I re-read, and drew a thick red line through every scene I really liked or which I thought contained my best writing. I found many of these contributed little, so out they went.

3. I analysed my descriptions of characters and settings. Where I had superfluous or excessive descriptions, I pared them drastically.

4. Next was a serious search for unnecessarily long phrases. Almost wore out my thesaurus looking for shorter phrases or single-words

5. I use a lot of dialogue. So, it received the same treatment.

6. I asked a long-suffering friend to read it. Any paragraph or scene whose inclusion made no sense to her, she simply marked it: WTF

I'm sure I did other things, but I don't remember them now. My suggestions might sound insignificant, but when you work through a half-million words, deleting multiple occurrences of these can produce significant savings.

BTW, it eventually go back to 120,000 words. Never sold. Probably never will, but it still sits there in reserve.

After you've pruned it as best you can, think about trying to find a beta reader.

I hope this helps.

SarahMacManus said:

"Thomas Covenant" is not mainstream, it's fantasy. Word counts for fantasy can run up to 120K for first time authors and well over 150K for proven authors.

A first time mainstream novel should land around 100K.

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One publisher I tried to pitch my story to specified a word count between 50K and 100K. Mine was a bit over 56K. But this was not a success story. Where can I share some of my story before I reach 50 post requirement.

It's easy to reach 50 posts. Just go to the writing exercise forum and play some of the word games. Though I also suggest doing some critiques in "Share Your Work." http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=33

beechnut79 said:

One publisher I tried to pitch my story to specified a word count between 50K and 100K. Mine was a bit over 56K. But this was not a success story. Where can I share some of my story before I reach 50 post requirement.

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I had to cut a lot out of my novel, which was around 150K in the first final draft. When it was finished and I got serious about revisions and trying to find an agent, I read that it needed to be around 100K at the very most. That was terrible news -- I had to remove 1/3 of the book!

The first cuts were so hard, but I went through it three times, worked with a few beta readers for feedback, and then cut some more. Now it's at 108K -- not tiny, but I'm querying it as lit fic, which gives some leeway on word count (up to 120K is supposedly acceptable).

Moral of the story: The first cuts were the hardest. I felt like I was gutting the novel. But then I had a fresh reader read it, and she said there were no glaring gaps in plot/story, and I got braver and made more cuts and tightened up a lot of language and long passages. Now I think it's such a better, faster read, and much improved because of the cutting. So even though it feels like you're cutting your novel to pieces, it will probably turn out better in the end.

Use Her Name said:

Yes, it could be like a kidney transplant.

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That is hilarious!

I was thinking the same thing.
My first manuscript is currently 62K words. But I left out an interesting back story to one of the characters. It's an unnecessary part, so I wrote it separately, with intentions of possibly inserting it later. This addition is nearly 11K words. Now I cant decided if I should add it or not because it might split up the momentum too much. This will drive me nuts.

wow! I had no idea there were limits on word counts. I guess that proves I am new to the world of publishing. But I have to say, that seems really stupid to me. Some stories are longer and some are shorter. And that is the way they need to be. Why be so anal about word counts?

Troyen said:

wow! I had no idea there were limits on word counts. I guess that proves I am new to the world of publishing.

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Ditto! Admittedly I'm already at (gulp) 162k. I'm going to finish what I have in mind and then go back and see where I can tighten it up, remove scenes I thought added to the backstory, etc. At this point I feel like I just need to get it out of my head.
Out of curiosity - how many pages (trade paperback) is a 90k book?

Nekko said:

Ditto! Admittedly I'm already at (gulp) 162k. I'm going to finish what I have in mind and then go back and see where I can tighten it up, remove scenes I thought added to the backstory, etc. At this point I feel like I just need to get it out of my head.
Out of curiosity - how many pages (trade paperback) is a 90k book?

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There is so much I didn't know. It's nice to know I am not the only one. My novel is 123,000 + and I will probably add a little with the revisions I am working on in order to incorporate something that one of my readers thought it needed. I have no clue how to cut out 23,000 words. And I am not totally sure that I need to since I haven't yet figured out exactly what genre it should fall into. I need a lot of help!!!

Troyen said:

I haven't yet figured out exactly what genre it should fall into. I need a lot of help!!!

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I'm having a similar genre dilemma. It is nice to know that not everyone on the forum has it all figured out yet!

Nekko said:

I'm having a similar genre dilemma. It is nice to know that not everyone on the forum has it all figured out yet!

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Well I certainly don't. When I first started to research the publishing industy, I was so overwhelmed it was keeping me up at night. I hope to learn a lot from this forum and maybe make some friends who are dealing with the same stuff. And I do hope I will find someone who can answer my genre question so I don't sound like an idiot when I send out quaries.

My first draft was 244,000 words. After 18 months of editing, it is down to 123-plus. If I cut anymore, it damages the story. I have no choice but to query mine at this length.

stargazer11 said:

My first draft was 244,000 words. After 18 months of editing, it is down to 123-plus. If I cut anymore, it damages the story. I have no choice but to query mine at this length.

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Wow! That's some great editing. I hope I will be able to figure out how to do that. Good luck with it!

I am so happy to have read this thread. I assumed a novel had to be at least 100,000 words. I was worried that my story would run out around 80,000. Now I know that would be a good thing.

Here's a link I found at the the beginning of this thread with suggested word counts per genre. Very informative.

http://theswivet.blogspot.com/2008/03/on-word-counts-and-novel-length.html

ChristineR back in 2009 perfectly adequately answered the original poster's question, I thought.

We spend way too much time worrying about quantity of our words when we should be focusing on the quality.