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Old 07-06-2005, 08:41 AM   #26
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Whoo, Boy. Last time I jumped into a political discussion in another thread, I started feeling like this chap:
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Old 07-06-2005, 08:41 AM   #27
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Karl Rove and Ralph Reed... at least that would make me happy if those two were tried for treason...
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Old 07-06-2005, 12:10 PM   #28
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Somehow I don't think of Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld as the radical right. There are certain institutions, organizations, and individuals who are far to the right of these individuals.

Bush and company certainly have allied themselves with these individuals, when they needed their votes. But they've never totally given in to these guys either.

Bob Jones University, Reverend Faldwell, Pat Robertson, etc are what I think of as the radical right.
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Old 07-06-2005, 12:16 PM   #29
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and which (or all?) of them will be tried to treason, and on what grounds exactly?
Karl Rove is probably the leak in the Plame case. http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8445696/site/newsweek/

I don't know if he'll be charged for treason (though I'm pretty sure revealing the identity of a covert CIA agent is classified as treason) but I really think Fitzgerald is angling for perjury charges at least.
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Old 07-06-2005, 05:21 PM   #30
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Revealing the identity of a covert CIA officer is a federal crime, but not treason. Rove's treason is in other areas. Rove lying to a grand jury is another crime.

Let's add Alberto "I Love Torture" Gonzales to the radical Right group of traitors and war criminals. He should be facing an international tribunal, not being suggested for the Supreme Court.
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Old 07-06-2005, 05:25 PM   #31
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and which (or all?) of them will be tried to treason, and on what grounds exactly?
All of them will be tried for treason, if not for war crimes.

What grounds? For attempting to subvert the Constitution, for lying to Congress, and for using public trust for private enrichment, just for starters.
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Old 07-06-2005, 05:38 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by JustinoXXV
Somehow I don't think of Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld as the radical right. There are certain institutions, organizations, and individuals who are far to the right of these individuals.
The fact that there are some people to the right of the gang of criminals in the White House doesn't make Bush and his chums moderates or anything close to it. They may even keep the farther-right fruitloops around to make themselves look good by comparison. Bush is still a radical bent on destroying the United States as we know it for his personal gain.

Did you see Bush standing up the other night claiming that the war in Iraq was somehow linked to the 9/11 attacks? That would almost be funny if so many people hadn't been killed and if America's reputation hadn't been left in tatters. Bush had been planning to invade Iraq long before the 9/11 attacks. He said so, in public, during a candidates' debate in Manchester, New Hampshire (Brit Hume moderating), ten months before the 2000 elections.
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Old 07-06-2005, 05:46 PM   #33
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Unhappy I owe y'all an apology.

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Originally Posted by sellthepharm
Bad day, drgnlvr?
Yes. -.-

Sorry that my rant wasn't quite as coherent as it should have been, guys. I essentially went by the definitions I was raised with (who knows, maybe it's my family that was skrood up...wait a minute...I -know- my family is skrood up, never mind).

And no, no one here has called me Anti-American (except in jest, right Rob? Right?!).

I'm just so frustrated with people actually threatening me with the FBI because of my opinions of our current government. Do I think they'll show up at my door and haul me off to Gitmo? Not really. But zealots of any stripe make me very nervous, and there seems to be way too many of them around my parts lately.

At least I can count on you all to put me in my place with diplomacy and class. My apologies for using this place to vent. It was inappropriate.

But yes, yesterday I was getting out of my car (Actually, Sam's, since mine is still broken), at a fast food place (for a job interview). Some knuckle-dragging neanderthal saw the bumpersticker Sam has that says "No, No to War, Yes to Peace", and actually got into my face calling me a terrorist sympathiser, and an "Anti-American Liberal Commie". He even had the gall to write the tag number down!

I was literally backed up against the trunk of my car because of this guy. And this is not the first time this has happened to me, either.

Unfortunately, no one called the cops, and I was too shaken up to do it myself. I actually missed the interview because of it.

I'm not sure I want to work for a place that wouldn't even call the cops in a case like that. The place wasn't busy, and I was in full view of the people working the counter. And yes, I sat in my car for about 15 minutes, crying and shaking. No one bothered to see if I was alright, or anything.

By the time I could drive back home, I'd gone from being upset, to being downright infuriated. And because this isn't the first time something like this has happened, I'm also rather scared.

So once again, I'm very sorry.
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Old 07-06-2005, 05:49 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by James D. Macdonald
All of them will be tried for treason, if not for war crimes.

What grounds? For attempting to subvert the Constitution, for lying to Congress, and for using public trust for private enrichment, just for starters.
I pray you're right, Uncle Jim. I really do.

I don't see it happening, though. But if it does, I will personally send you a pic of me chewing on my shoe (I'm afraid I just don't have sharp enough teeth to actually eat it).
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Old 07-06-2005, 05:56 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by drgnlvr

I pray you're right, Uncle Jim. I really do.
me, too.

'beware the knock on the door.' It's closer than we think. ANYone, who doesn't believe that needs to pull their head out. Whether you believe or disbelieve - it's been predicted. By quite a few people in history.

We live in perilous times. 'Eat, drink and be merry....'

Thank God for term limits!

***drglvr - I'm sorry this happened to you. Now we know why you posted it.***
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Old 07-06-2005, 06:01 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unique

Thank God for term limits!
You do know that a repeal of the 22nd Amendment is on the table right now, don't you?

I know that this comes up every so often, anyway, and that 99.9% of the time, no one really takes it seriously. But considering the current atmosphere in this country....makes you think

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***drglvr - I'm sorry this happened to you. Now we know why you posted it.***
Thanks. But I should have waited until today.

But this isn't the first time I've gone off half-c*cked, and I doubt it'll be the last.
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Old 07-06-2005, 06:09 PM   #37
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drgnlvr,

i'm really sorry about your encounter. our country is extremely polarized these days, and there are knee-jerk a$sholes on both ends of the spectrum. you can't reason with such people; they are driven by propaganda and personal bias.

and james -- while corruption occurs far too frequently in government, i personally am sick and tired of irresponsible cries of treason. when adults can't disagree with policy, or separate real incidences of corruption or malfeasance from treason (for which there is an extraordinarily high legal threshold) and insist on using hot-headed rhetoric, we set an pathetic example for the next generation of voters.

then we lament the lack of participation.

it's really ridiculous. it's ridiculous when it comes from the right saying michael moore or dick durbin are traitors and it's just as silly coming from the left... james dobson will be tried for treason? give me a fvckin' break...
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Old 07-06-2005, 06:29 PM   #38
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I've been called anti-American, a traitor and a "commie" back when Bush started the Iraq War and I was one of those who protested against it (yeah, went to a rally). By who? By someone who otherwise seemed like a nice person, but when it came to Bush and his policies, he was a fanatic supporter. He clearly had some idol worshipping going on...

And you know what? I can't change people's mind, least of all his. All I could say was "screw you" and walk away.
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Old 07-06-2005, 06:35 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maestrowork
By who? By someone who otherwise seemed like a nice person, but when it came to Bush and his policies, he was a fanatic supporter.

And you know what? I can't change people's mind, least of all his. All I could say was "screw you" and walk away.

Maestro, dear Maestro. My family - my otherwise normal, upstanding, intelligent and educated family are supporters. How do you think that makes me feel? We can't both be right. Well, I suppose we could.....if you split hairs.

That's why I keep saying, 'this country hasn't been so divided since the Civil War' It's awful! This polarization is taking all the values I grew up with and it's rolling them in the dirt. It's driving me bats, I tell you.

And it's very difficult to say, '**** you' to your family. They think GWB is the next best thing to Christ and I think he's the Anti-Christ. EEEEK.
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Old 07-06-2005, 06:39 PM   #40
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They think GWB is the next best thing to Christ and I think he's the Anti-Christ.
start your reconciliation by realizing you're both wrong.
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Old 07-06-2005, 06:44 PM   #41
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start your reconciliation by realizing you're both wrong.
well, thanks, Will.

I hope you're right!

mostly we don't talk about it. It makes for better harmony.
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Old 07-06-2005, 07:17 PM   #42
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The current atmosphere is pretty tense and ugly, Lorrie. I'm really sorry that happened to you.

I'm in Seattle, a pretty liberal city, right? Most of my gay friends have removed their pink-triangle, pride flag, and human-rights alliance bumper stickers because of either incidents like you describe, or because they're tired of having their cars vandalized.

*sigh*
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Old 07-06-2005, 08:16 PM   #43
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I don't really mind if people disagree or we're polarized... that's just human. BUT, I do have a problem when people start calling others traitors and un-American, etc. when they don't agree with each other. I think part of what attracted me to America is the fact we're free to make our own decisions, live our own lives, have our own believes, and our freedom and rights to speak up against our government or policies. That to me is the American way.

Unfortunately, I think a lot of people in this country now forget what being American really means...
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Old 07-06-2005, 08:27 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James D. Macdonald
All of them will be tried for treason, if not for war crimes.

What grounds? For attempting to subvert the Constitution, for lying to Congress, and for using public trust for private enrichment, just for starters.
Section. 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court. The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

Ahem, Treason is not an arbitrary term or crime; you can't bring charges against someone for Treason just because you don't like their politics or policies.

Rob
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Old 07-06-2005, 08:35 PM   #45
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Section. 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court. The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

Ahem, Treason is not an arbitrary term or crime; you can't bring charges against someone for Treason just because you don't like their politics or policies.

Rob
Sounds like our commander in thief and his puppet masters fit. After all, -WHO- attacked us on 9/11? Not Iraqis, but Saudis. -WHO- is funding terrorist groups in the ME? The House of Saud.

And -WHO- is our POTUS holding hands with? (And no, it's not -just- the hand-holding, but the fact that our government is practically sleeping with the Saudis).

Sounds alot like treason to me.
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Old 07-06-2005, 08:35 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by drgnlvr
But yes, yesterday I was getting out of my car (Actually, Sam's, since mine is still broken), at a fast food place (for a job interview). Some knuckle-dragging neanderthal saw the bumpersticker Sam has that says "No, No to War, Yes to Peace", and actually got into my face calling me a terrorist sympathiser, and an "Anti-American Liberal Commie". He even had the gall to write the tag number down!
Bone-heads are everywhere.

This reminds me a few lines from an old Charlie Daniels Song, "Uneasy Rider":

You may not know it but this man's a spy
He's an undercover agent for the FBI
And he's been sent down here to infiltrate the Ku Klux Klan...

Would you believe this has gone as far
As tearing Wallace stickers of the bumpers of cars
And he voted for George McGovern for President!

Why he's a friend a them long-haired-hippe-type-pinko-fags
I betcha he's even gotta commie flag
Tacked up on the wall of his garage...

Rob
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Old 07-06-2005, 08:39 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drgnlvr
Sounds like our commander in thief and his puppet masters fit. After all, -WHO- attacked us on 9/11? Not Iraqis, but Saudis. -WHO- is funding terrorist groups in the ME? The House of Saud.

And -WHO- is our POTUS holding hands with? (And no, it's not -just- the hand-holding, but the fact that our government is practically sleeping with the Saudis).

Sounds alot like treason to me.
Sorry, it has to be an overt act...it doesn't fit, no matter how much you want it to. Don't start bending the Constitution, or you can't be a true Conservative! If you feel impeachable offenses have been committed, and federal crimes as well, that's an entirely different thing. But there is no treason here...there just isn't.

Rob
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Old 07-06-2005, 08:40 PM   #48
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Unfortunately, there are those who believe that any criticism of or opposition to our President counts as "giving [Enemies] aid and comfort." Thus, in their minds, anyone who doesn't fully support Bush's actions is guilty of treason. I couldn't give you a certain accounting of that logic, since I don't share it, but I think it has something to do with the idea that "the terrorists" (scare quotes to indicate how loosely the term has come to be used, referring to everyone from the 9/11 hijackers down to the last infant citizen of Iraq) monitor all our public speech and derive some sense of satisfaction and support from Those Nasty Anti-American Liberals What Hate Our Blessed President™.

I've been on the receiving end of the associated name-calling more times than is pleasant to recall.

I'm trying to remember--and I'm not certain I can find it easily, but it was (natch) discussed at The Daily Kos during the election run-up--exactly which speaker it was who, during the Republican convention, came bloody near to calling John Kerry a traitor simply because he was running for President. "How dare those Democrats run an opposing candidate during an election year when we're at war? They must hate America!"
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Old 07-06-2005, 08:44 PM   #49
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commander in thief
just a quick tip. if you don't want to be lumped in with the more lunatic fringe of the far left, you might want to consider making an argument without using their silly jargon.

i've yet to see any evidence that the hijackers (saudi though they were) were acting on behalf on the house of saud. they had pledged their allegiance to international jihad-ism, and even a cursory review of available information reveals that the jihadists see the saudi royal family as... ahem... traitors to islam.
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Old 07-06-2005, 08:47 PM   #50
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robeiae is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsrobeiae is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsrobeiae is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsrobeiae is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsrobeiae is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsrobeiae is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsrobeiae is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsrobeiae is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsrobeiae is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsrobeiae is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsrobeiae is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicoleJLeBoeuf
Thus, in their minds, anyone who doesn't fully support Bush's actions is guilty of treason. I couldn't give you a certain accounting of that logic, since I don't share it, but I think it has something to do with the idea that "the terrorists" (scare quotes to indicate how loosely the term has come to be used, referring to everyone from the 9/11 hijackers down to the last infant citizen of Iraq) monitor all our public speech and derive some sense of satisfaction and support from Those Nasty Anti-American Liberals What Hate Our Blessed President™.
Once again, bone-heads...this is just silly, but it is characteristic of people who live and breath on sound-bites:

You're a traitor if you don't support the war
You're a fascist if you support Bush
You're a commie if you voted for Kerry

I dare say that 95% of the people who make these statements, and others like them, do not know the proper definitions of the bold-faced words, and similar ones. The other 5% know the definitions, and know they are using the terms incorrectly, but do so anyway since it serves an agenda.

Rob
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Last edited by robeiae; 07-06-2005 at 08:49 PM. Reason: stupid errors
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