Differentiating between "And"

mesh138 · 02-25-2006, 03:45 AM

One grammar thing I have trouble with is when to use a comma after "And."
I don't know the rule. I know you put it when listing things (I went to school, the library, and later to the nightclub). How about two sentences like these:

I put down the tray and ran to the door.
Waverly got upset and I didn't know what to do.

jen.nifer · 02-25-2006, 03:51 AM

Well, I'd say that both sentences don't require a comma...

pianoman5 · 02-25-2006, 05:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mesh138

One grammar thing I have trouble with is when to use a comma after "And"

I guess you meant before "and".

In your first example: "I put down the tray and ran to the door"
it's not necessary, because only the first clause is independent.

Your second example is an interesting (and potentially confusing) one, because in this case the comma is optional:

"Waverly got upset, and I didn't know what to do."
is correct, because the two clauses are independent -- that is, each can stand alone, as in: "Waverly got upset. I didn't know what to do."

But equally, "Waverly got upset and I didn't know what to do." is fine, because the clauses are short.

How long do independent clauses need to be before the comma ceases to be optional? Ah, well, there's a question. That appears to be a matter for writerly judgement, if not plain old common sense, in which faithfully representing the desired rhythm is a guiding principle.

Sage · 02-25-2006, 05:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pianoman5

But equally, "Waverly got upset and I didn't know what to do." is fine, because the clauses are short.

How long do independent clauses need to be before the comma ceases to be optional? Ah, well, there's a question. That appears to be a matter for writerly judgement, if not plain old common sense, in which faithfully representing the desired rhythm is a guiding principle.

I didn't know this was an option.

reph · 02-25-2006, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mesh138

I went to school, the library, and later to the nightclub.

Pianoman took care of your question. Here's another one: is the sample sentence above correctly constructed? Answer: no.

I went to

• school
• the library
• later to the nightclub

"School" is a noun. "The library" is a noun with an article. So far, so good. But "to the nightclub" isn't a noun. It's a prepositional phrase. Not to get too technical, I hope, but the important thing isn't to have them all nouns or not; it's to have them all substantives or not. Nouns are substantives, and so are some other things.

This is correct: "I went to school, to the library, and later to the nightclub."

This is also correct: "I went to school, the library, and later the nightclub."

(grasshopper) · 02-25-2006, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reph

Pianoman took care of your question. Here's another one: is the sample sentence above correctly constructed? Answer: no.

Ah yes, reph, you picked up on that, too.

I think part of the mechanism involved here is parallelism.

For example it would be okay to say:

I went to the school, to the library, and later to the nightclub.

But if you ellipse the preposition in one of the succeeding phrases, then you should ellipse it in all of them (just to keep things parallel).

I went to the school, (to) the library, and later (to) the nightclub.

I'm not sure but I think this is more a matter of aesthetics, rather than a rule.

reph · 02-25-2006, 09:59 PM

It's a rule. A failure of parallelism is a fault in the grammar of the sentence. People need to return to diagramming sentences.

(grasshopper) · 02-26-2006, 07:04 AM

So it is a rule. Thank you. I should have checked.

Yes, I'd love to see the return of sentence diagramming in school. You know, when I was trying to find reference books on diagramming, I called my local grammar school to see if they had any books on the subject. They didn't, of course, and the concept was so foreign to them that they had trouble understanding what I wanted at first.

I had to laugh at the irony when I hung up. It was a grammar school for heaven's sake!

sacredmime · 03-02-2006, 09:27 PM

Yes, grasshopper, I had the same problem when I had chemistry questions in my elementary school . Or when I had substance abuse questions for my high school counselor. (ugh, sorry about that

(grasshopper) · 03-03-2006, 06:33 AM

I'm sorry, sacredmime. I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean.

reph · 03-03-2006, 06:38 AM

(g'hopper), s'mime was punning.

chemistry . . . elementary school

substance abuse . . . high school

(grasshopper) · 03-03-2006, 06:41 AM

Hang on a minute. . . .

Chemistry questions in an elementary school . . .
Abuse problems for a counselor . . .

(Bing) the little light just went on.

Good one.

You deserve a rep point for that!

(grasshopper) · 03-03-2006, 06:45 AM

Thanks, Reph.

I made the post immediately above before I read your post explaining it.

I was on the right track, though, but still a little slow on the uptake.
Still worth a point, don't you think?

Phouka · 03-06-2006, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by (grasshopper)

Yes, I'd love to see the return of sentence diagramming in school. You know, when I was trying to find reference books on diagramming, I called my local grammar school to see if they had any books on the subject. They didn't, of course, and the concept was so foreign to them that they had trouble understanding what I wanted at first.

I latched on a treasure trove of Grammar books from the early 1920s and 30s off eBay, which covered all the diagramming and odd grammar concepts that I never saw in school. I absolutely love them, and I can diagram a sentence with the best of them.

Carmy · 03-20-2006, 05:14 AM

Excuse me, but I may be reading this the wrong way.

One grammar thing I have trouble with is when to use a comma after "And."

All of the answers refer to a comma before "and", yes?

"Today I went to the zoo and, ignoring the rain, I walked around for hours."

I was taught at school that any clause, in the middle of a sentence, that could be taken out and still have the sentence make sense should be offset by commas.

reph · 03-20-2006, 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carmy

All of the answers refer to a comma before "and", yes?

Yes. See post #3.

poetinahat · 03-20-2006, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carmy

Excuse me, but I may be reading this the wrong way.

One grammar thing I have trouble with is when to use a comma after "And."

All of the answers refer to a comma before "and", yes?

"Today I went to the zoo and, ignoring the rain, I walked around for hours."

I was taught at school that any clause, in the middle of a sentence, that could be taken out and still have the sentence make sense should be offset by commas.

Based on the earlier discussion, there is also an optional comma between "zoo" and "and". Personally, I like having it there.

The comma after the and is a different proposition altogether; it's not mutually exclusive with this optional comma.

maestrowork · 03-20-2006, 06:24 AM

I would normally write it this way:

Today I went to the zoo, and, ignoring the rain, I walked around for hours.

or

Today I went to the zoo and walked around for hours, ignoring the rain.

02-25-2006, 03:45 AM	#1
mesh138 practical experience, FTW Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 109	Differentiating between "And" One grammar thing I have trouble with is when to use a comma after "And." I don't know the rule. I know you put it when listing things (I went to school, the library, and later to the nightclub). How about two sentences like these: I put down the tray and ran to the door. Waverly got upset and I didn't know what to do.

02-25-2006, 09:59 PM	#7
reph Fig of authority Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: On a fig tree, presumably Posts: 5,162	Right, it's parallelism It's a rule. A failure of parallelism is a fault in the grammar of the sentence. People need to return to diagramming sentences.

03-03-2006, 06:45 AM	#13
(grasshopper) practical experience, FTW Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 166	Thanks, Reph. I made the post immediately above before I read your post explaining it. I was on the right track, though, but still a little slow on the uptake. Still worth a point, don't you think? Last edited by (grasshopper); 03-03-2006 at 06:49 AM.

03-20-2006, 06:24 AM	#18
maestrowork Fear the Death Ray Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: wgasa Posts: 43,746	I would normally write it this way: Today I went to the zoo, and, ignoring the rain, I walked around for hours. or Today I went to the zoo and walked around for hours, ignoring the rain. __________________ I didn't want to work. It was as simple as that. I distrusted work, disliked it. I thought it was a very bad thing that the human race had unfortunately invented for itself. -- Agatha Christie The Pacific Between • A Bunch of Stories (2006 IPPY Award) WIP: Beyond the Banyan Tree - draft 9, 125,000 words Home Page \| Blog \| Reviews

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02-25-2006, 03:51 AM	#2
jen.nifer practical experience, FTW Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Adelaide, Australia Posts: 872	Well, I'd say that both sentences don't require a comma...

02-26-2006, 07:04 AM	#8
(grasshopper) practical experience, FTW Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 166	So it is a rule. Thank you. I should have checked. Yes, I'd love to see the return of sentence diagramming in school. You know, when I was trying to find reference books on diagramming, I called my local grammar school to see if they had any books on the subject. They didn't, of course, and the concept was so foreign to them that they had trouble understanding what I wanted at first. I had to laugh at the irony when I hung up. It was a grammar school for heaven's sake!

03-02-2006, 09:27 PM	#9
sacredmime Esteemed New Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Near the Big Apple Posts: 225	Yes, grasshopper, I had the same problem when I had chemistry questions in my elementary school . Or when I had substance abuse questions for my high school counselor. (ugh, sorry about that

03-03-2006, 06:33 AM	#10
(grasshopper) practical experience, FTW Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 166	I'm sorry, sacredmime. I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean.

03-03-2006, 06:38 AM	#11
reph Fig of authority Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: On a fig tree, presumably Posts: 5,162	(g'hopper), s'mime was punning. chemistry . . . elementary school substance abuse . . . high school

03-03-2006, 06:41 AM	#12
(grasshopper) practical experience, FTW Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 166	Hang on a minute. . . . Chemistry questions in an elementary school . . . Abuse problems for a counselor . . . (Bing) the little light just went on. Good one. You deserve a rep point for that!

03-20-2006, 05:14 AM	#15
Carmy Banned Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 1,651	Excuse me, but I may be reading this the wrong way. One grammar thing I have trouble with is when to use a comma after "And." All of the answers refer to a comma before "and", yes? "Today I went to the zoo and, ignoring the rain, I walked around for hours." I was taught at school that any clause, in the middle of a sentence, that could be taken out and still have the sentence make sense should be offset by commas.