Tate Publishing

Over the past two years, I've had continued contact with about five Tate authors. One, whose book is just about to be released, didn't pay the 4000 bucks. The others did.

Of the other four, none of them has sold as many as 100 copies. And by their own report, all of them bought over 50% of their own books that were sold.

I read some excerpts from these books. I wouldn't say that any of the five authors would have been chosen for publication by a commercial publishing house.

One was pretty close, and with rigorous editing, MIGHT have been whipped into shape. (I didn't read the whole book, just the first couple chapters, so I can't say how the author handled the storytelling aspects. I'm speaking mostly stylistically.)

That's the person who didn't pay the 4000...but he didn't receive an advance.

-Ann C. Crispin

AC Crispin said:

That's the person who didn't pay the 4000...but he didn't receive an advance.

-Ann C. Crispin

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If I'm reading Ryan Tate's responses correctly in this thread (not an easy task, mind you), Tate does not offer an advance to a first time Tate published author. They only offer an advance on the author's second book if the first one passed the 5,000 copies sold mark.

Ryan, please correct me if I am misunderstanding your responses.

RyanTate said:

Tate authors don't just get books printed. All Tate authors go through three levels of editing: copy, technical and conceptual.

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I noted some of this in an earlier post, but it's worth repeating...

According to Amazon, Tate published 767 books in 2007. The pace has stepped up in 2008: Amazon shows 929 books scheduled through October of this year. Yet according to Tate's staff page, Tate employs just 15 editorial staff--10 conceptual editors, 4 copy editors, and one executive editor. To keep up with Tate's publication numbers, the conceptual editors would have to edit, on average, 2-3 books a week. The copy editors would have to copy edit 5-6 books a week. There is simply no way that this kind of workload could produce careful, commercial-style substantive and copy editing.

However, the most important feature is that each Tate author is assigned an individual marketing rep to work with for their book. The marketing rep's responsibility is to make sure the book is available in bookstores, on every website and available for purchase everywhere books are sold. In addition, they are to pursue niche events, interviews, articles, and promote any and all events that a Tate author is at for the life of our authors work.

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Also on Tate's staff page, we find that there are 11 marketing staff: 10 marketers and one director. At the rate that Tate is currently publishing books, this means that the marketers each receive an average of 2-3 new books a week to market. That's 92 new books per staff member this year alone.

The 92 books are just the tip of the iceberg, though, since the statement above indicates that Tate markets its books for as long as they are in print. According to Amazon, Tate has published 2,873 books to date. Let's assume that 500 of those have gone out of print (I suspect the number is closer to zero, but I want to be generous). Theoretically, each Tate marketing staff member carries an ongoing workload of 237 books.

Again, with that staff, and those numbers, I just don't see any way that Tate can provide meaningful marketing for its books.

These are PublishAmerica-style numbers, folks. Draw your own conclusions.

- Victoria

Yes, we do offer advances to first time authors as well. We only list senior staff on the website Victoria, we have plenty of staff and no book moves through production without both approval from the publisher and author. We are good, but thanks! On the marketing side we are incredibly successful and have plenty there too. Thanks for your concern, but we have everything we need staff wise. Publish America and other self-publishers publish thousands of books a year, we are in the hundreds. You are much more likely to succeed with us and our numbers and sales volumes speak for themselves. Not sure what your personal attacks are all about Victoria, but I am praying that you will come around, we have a company that is built to be the best option for an author. Please don't be offended by that, it is just that you and I have gone back and forth for years, and we have always delivered for our authors and been very nice and pleasant to you and tried our best to provide you with the information you need. It seems like it will never be enough for you. You don't have to like us or agree, but you can't attack our integrity or the assistance we provide a Tate author. We strive to accomplish that everyday.

MM, sorry but I really don't have the time to hunt down all of those numbers for you. Our authors have higher sales volumes, make their investments back quicker and work with a staff that loves them, is qualified and serves better than any. If you are a potential author, check all of the options out there, at the end of the day, if you are looking for the best deal with the most opportunity and potential for success Tate Publishing is the answer. These questions can be addressed, but I would just contact the office and speak with someone in acquisitions. Once again, the number is (405)376-4900. I would love to help more, but my staff is here to help with these issues.

God Bless,

Why so evasive? Are the numbers really that bad that those can't be revealed?

RyanTate said:

We only list senior staff on the website Victoria

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Hmm. On the Tate staff page, three of the Acquisitions staff are assistants, and one of the Editorial staff, two of the Design staff, and two of the Illustration staff are associates.

- Victoria

I've worked as an editor, and I know pretty much how most real, commercial publishers work. And no matter what Mr Tate posts, he still doesn't convince me that Tate Publishing is anything but a vanity press.

I could be wrong. But I'm not often.

Personally, I keep it real simple.

If you have to pay -- even if it is just an 'option' to pay -- then it is a vanity press. Periods. A publisher that is not intending on making their money off of authors will not ask authors for money.

Like I said, pretty simple.

Havlen. Wonderful. Just what I should have said, only didn't.

RyanTate:
MM, sorry but I really don't have the time to hunt down all of those numbers for you. Our authors have higher sales volumes, make their investments back quicker and work with a staff that loves them, is qualified and serves better than any.

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I'm sorry to hear that, Ryan, because you've certainly had time to make long posts that are essentially a sales spiel for your company and you've had no problem in throwing percentages around without offering any background calculation as to how they were reached. I am not going to make a costly transatlantic phone call to anyone in your company, when you clearly have the time and inclination to post on these boards.

The fact that I have repeatedly asked some of those questions and you have repeatedly evaded answering them in your subsequent posts allows people to make their own assumptions about Tate's business plan and how appropriate it is for authors who are serious about their work.

Vanity, thy name is Tate.

MM

I'm not going to get into the crux of the conversation here, but just thought I'd toss in a personal observation.

When authors try to get books stocked and booksignings set up locally, a nearby Borders is now insisting that books be "in the warehouse" before they stock any or hold signings.

The father-in-law of a friend of mine went with Tate, despite warnings to the contrary.

I just noticed he had a signing at that Borders a few Saturdays ago, while friends of mine who have gone with POD publishers have been unable to.

It's a rather sad day when bookstores consider vanity above POD...

more of the same

beginnings of a soon to be long thread @ http://cdbaby.org/stories/08/05/26/9927886.html they could use some advise over there pro and con to make a decision on the musicians side of the issue. these forums helped me make a decision not to move forward with my oppurtunity with tate. it seems to risky. the contract sounds great on paper if u do get all the services promised, but i would like to see a proven track record before i would invest that amount of $$. if there is alot of happy tate clients, u might want to weigh in over there and help out your company, and if there is those who got burned, please do share your experience so they might make the best decision.thanks

rhp, would you consider posting a link to this thread in the discussion you mentioned? Books or music, the issues are the same.

- Victoria

victoriastrauss said:

rhp, would you consider posting a link to this thread in the discussion you mentioned? Books or music, the issues are the same.

- Victoria

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it's done, hopefully it will shed some light on the subject for my fellow musicians. this not something that should be rushed into, and it might work for some, but i am afraid a good % will lose in the end. but that is just my opinion, they can make up their own minds.

RHP,

Thanks and will do, it is our belief that people that are talented should have the opportunity to succeed if their work is good and they are willing to work hard as well. As you can see we have several options, but the authors success is central for us. I hate how negative these posts seem to go, but I think it is important to make sure the truth and both sides are presented. We have created a business for the author (and now for musicians too) that they can truly succeed in this industry. Barnes and Noble even lists all of our books with their large press division and allows us to bring in stock for any event to stores locally, regionally or nationally. That is a fact, reputable publishers can only achieve such things, and our focus is to continue to serve our authors. I totally understand if someone doesn't want to self-publish, use a subsidy publisher, or enter into a partnership publishing agreement, but that doesn't make it a bad deal or wrong. These are just options and good options for most depending on their situation.

MM,

Sorry if that frustrated you, but just send your questions directly to one of our acquisitions reps and they can get you the info. Usually people who have the questions you are having though really just want to know one thing, "Will I make money off my book?"! I think that is a great question and I tried to answer that to the best of my ability. At Tate Publishing, whether you are offered an advance, we pick up the book without an advance but no investment, or you are asked to make an investment and subsidy or partnership publish, you have a very good chance to succeed and be profitable. The numbers and sales volumes I have shared in this post defend that. However, I never like to tell an author what to expect, there is always a risk, but we work hard to minimize the risk and help Tate authors to succeed. You are never alone and we never quit.

I appreciate you guys and God Bless,

Ryan, I'm sure you're aware most of the negative press abounding on the 'net about Tate (and you have to admit, it's a lot) is pointed directly at this money-from-the-author stuff. Potential authors see that and their "screw this" radar instantly pings (or should).

I'm firmly convinced 90% of the negative press your company is enduring would go quickly away if you'd simply cut out this "investment" and "partnership" argle-bargle and say, "We're a small press, taking on a limited number of titles, and cannot pay you advance. But be assured, the ones we offer a contract on will get our undivided attention, and we'll do our best to make sure we both show a profit."

Isn't that a cleaner, more open way to do things?

But if he didn't get that money from his authors how would he make any money?

Answer: He wouldn't. If he could make money selling books to readers, he wouldn't be asking authors for money.

guess i'm a hard sell

guess i am a hard sell Ryan, no offense to u and your bizz, it's just hard concept for me to swallow till i see it turning out success stories. but i realize your music co. is still in its first year and i'll have to wait and see. anyhow, thanks for the offer .

I'm a tough sell, too, rhp. Any time anybody sidesteps my questions and doesn't provide satisfactory answers? "Thanks. Just browsing."

ryantate:
just send your questions directly to one of our acquisitions reps and they can get you the info.

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Why can't you answer them here? You clearly have some info because you're giving the percentages. I can see no good reason why you can't give the base information used to reach those percentages.

I thought the whole purpose of you posting in this thread was to provide clarity and answers to people's questions - in fact, you specifically said in your very first post on this discussion:

ryantate:
I will try to check in from time to time and answer any questions that you may have

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Since then, far from answering any questions that people have, you are very selective in the ones you choose to answer and indeed, some of your answers have appeared to contradict themselves.

ryantate:
Usually people who have the questions you are having though really just want to know one thing, "Will I make money off my book?"! I think that is a great question and I tried to answer that to the best of my ability.

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Ryan, the question "Will I make money off my book?" is the most important question that an author should be asking from their publisher. And from the limited information that you've given here, the answer appears to be:

If you pay money to my company as an "investment" in your book, there's a good chance that you will never make that money back and if you do make that money back, there is a good chance that it will take you a couple of years to do so.

ryantate:
The numbers and sales volumes I have shared in this post defend that.

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Ryan, the numbers and sales volumes you have "shared" clearly don't defend that because they raise more questions than they answer - questions that you're now saying I need to go to your acquisitions department to get answers on because you don't want to share them here.

And yes, Ryan, that is frustrating because all I get from you in response is a parrot response about how you're there for your authors and willing them to succeed, which is a lovely sentiment, but a fat lot of good when it comes to helping a person working out the financial implications of going with your company.

MM

The author's radar SHOULD be pinging, and in a general way, not in response to the specifics. Numbers are cited only when they look positive. Questions have been raised that have not been answered, or answered in disingenuous ways. That alone should make for hesitation, if indeed anyone still has the urge to send Tate anything.

Let's rephrase the question: would you, Mr. Tate, enter into a business contract wherein the other party 1) cannot state with any certainty your chances of making a profit 2) will not share figures about what it may cost you personally 3) has one deal for you and a different deal for another partner with a similar product?

If you would, sir, I wish you luck.

Havlen said:

But if he didn't get that money from his authors how would he make any money?

Answer: He wouldn't. If he could make money selling books to readers, he wouldn't be asking authors for money.

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Bingo! Let's keep it simple; anytime an author pays money for production of their own book, all the liability is on their shoulders to make sales. The publisher assumes no liability because those fees are vastly inflated. I don't think it's necessary to pinpick all the numbers and percentages flying about. When we get down to the most common denominator, it's the author who stands to lose.

Publishers like this only stay in business because their authors do the majority of the work. It would appear that Tate has made enough money to offer different "packages." Some get advances, some pay, etc. This whole tiered system is little more than window dressing to bring in authors who have a lot of money to burn. It would appear they want to be in the same league with Morgan James - another high priced vanity press.

While I wholeheartedly disagree with the vanity/POD scenario, if that's what authors want to do, then they, at the very least, need the full picture.

priceless1 said:

While I wholeheartedly disagree with the vanity/POD scenario, if that's what authors want to do, then they, at the very least, need the full picture.

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Which is the entire point of this thread. Giving the full picture to lurkers and members of AW who are considering subsidy publishing.

By the by, did you receive an offer to submit to Tate, priceless1? MM did.


D Sorry. I couldn't resist. Bad Brian. I shall now go stand in the corner.)

brianm said:

By the by, did you receive an offer to submit to Tate, priceless1? MM did.

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Oh gosh no. I think he knows better than to think I'd do anything so ruinous to my writing.