Tate Publishing

Leon. R. Mentzer said:

“THERE IS NO INFO ABOUT YOUR FEES”.
Tate has indicated that they don’t have a set policy, until they read your manuscript. Then there is full disclosure, because your manuscript may be offered a different contract. And you DO NOT have to sign the contract if you do not want to.

When you go to the car lot there isn’t anything listed that tells one exactly what the final price is? It depends on what you have and want. But never the less the sign on the car says it yours for??? Then comes the details.

Not having pricing information pasted on the first page isn’t “Omitting “.

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The thing that bothers me most of all about this whole scenario is that Tate has the option of charging whenever they want to. "No policy" means that everything is open to debate and, dare I say it? Need? Let's say the cash flow is getting a bit low. Is this the time when a number of manuscripts are suddenly not "good enough" and get socked with a four grand "publishing" bill?

And since there is no policy, you're basically telling authors, "Okay, kiddies, this is a lottery. Some pay, some don't." Sorry, but I don't buy this for one minute because who always assumes all the risk? The author. Every. Single. Time.

In your car scenario, anyone with firing synapses knows this is an exchange of goods - money for a car. There are guarantees that accompany that sale. If the car craps out in X amount of time, the warranty kicks in. Where does Tate offer this guarantee? The best comparison I can equate with your scenario is that of a used car salesman where there are no guarantees that car won't blow up the minute the buyer drives it off the lot. And two guesses as to who keeps the money? Shared risk? Don't insult me.

Please don’t catalog Tate authors as poor or desperate. Have you published anything? If you haven’t what makes you the expert here.

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With twelve award winning books and a great lineup of successful authors, I'd like to consider myself an expert. I have received emails from four Tate authors, and every one of them were far from poor or desperate. However, they were very upset at the lack of Tate's promise to spend thousands on book promotion. Each of these authors told me stories about how Tate's "marketing" person ignored their requests for information as to what Tate was doing to get their book into the marketplace.

Educate don’t complaint.

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I assume you mean "complain." And I believe this thread is doing exactly what you suggest - educating. But I do have a complaint; I find it unseemly for Mr. Tate to basically run out on this thread and make others defend his company. It's cheap. I'm a publisher and know how busy our lives get, but if a publisher can't handle having his feet put to the fire and has others clean up his dirty work, then that person takes a serious nosedive in the credibility department.

Leon. R. Mentzer:
AS to Harper I just called them and asked them what they were thinking about author fees. I had talked to one of their Reps at the CBA convention in Fla. They indicated that they're going to change policies????? and charging a fee was in the mix to talk about.

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I'm surprised that Harpers would be thinking about charging a fee because it would represent a real change in their business model. However, thanks for the information. Did they let you know when they're planning to make an announcement about it?

Stacy Baker:
I noticed that quite a few questions have already been answered in the past posts. Therefore, I'll try not to waste anyone's time by being redundant in my answers.

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Many thanks, Stacy. Are you able to provide a response to those questions that you feel haven't been answered?

MM

Leon. R. Mentzer said:

My remakes were directed to Dertie Bertie, not anyone else. But if the shoe fits?

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actually, then you should have put it in a private message to her - not posted it in a public forum.

however, it does provide an insight into your position and your thought processes that got you there. Enlightening, to say the least.

maybe you should spend more time on AW before you start tossing insults around at other authors who may actually have been successful without pouring money into Tate's pockets. Just a thought.

Leon. R. Mentzer said:

As to the partnership, author investment or what ever the phrase de jour is, HarperCollins is now discussing this model for their author submissions. At what price, who knows?

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I'm guessing that you're talking about the new HarperCollins imprint, HarperStudio. Here's an early article about the imprint. Here's a more recent one. Here's the publisher's blog post announcing the imprint.

There are many misconceptions about HarperStudio. One is that its policies are company-wide, representing a change for the entire HarperCollins empire. This is not true. HarperStudio's innovations, such as they are, are presently confined to just HarperStudio.

Another misconception is that HarperStudio will require authors to "invest"--i.e., to pay a fee. I've seen more than one vanity publisher defend its fees with this rumor, but it is completely false. Possibly, it arises from initial reports that HarperStudio didn't plan to pay author advances. It seems to have backed away from that, though, and is now describing its policy as a "low-advance model."

- Victoria

Leon. R. Mentzer said:

AS to Harper I just called them and asked them what they were thinking about author fees. I had talked to one of their Reps at the CBA convention in Fla. They indicated that they're going to change policies????? and charging a fee was in the mix to talk about.

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I'm sorry, but I simply don't believe this. I'm not questioning that you heard what you heard, but I'm thinking that you must have misunderstood.

- Victoria

Just a quick modly comment:

Let's put a moratorium on the name calling, folks. Respectful dialogue gets to the truth of the matter much faster than snipping.

Leon. R. Mentzer said:

My remakes were directed to Dertie Bertie, not anyone else. But if the shoe fits?

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Have we REALLY devolved into shouting: "I am rubber, you are glue"?

Leon. R. Mentzer said:

“THERE IS NO INFO ABOUT YOUR FEES”.
Tate has indicated that they don’t have a set policy, until they read your manuscript. Then there is full disclosure, because your manuscript may be offered a different contract.

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This is from the email that Tate sends to authors who contact it, inviting them to submit their manuscripts. My bolding.

"[FONT=tahoma,verdana,arial,helvetica]1. We take a few authors each year to whom we pay the highest royalty
in the industry (15%) and still participate with our investment in your book
of anywhere from $15,700.00-$19,700.00 of our resources for the production
and nationwide marketing of the work. With a new author we expect an author
participation of only $3,985.50. If you are seriously interested in getting
your book published in the mainstream, give me a call and I can explain how
the author participation works, how the funds are used, and how our authors
recoup that initial investment. If we accepted first time authors with no
participation we could sign a hundred a week. The publishing business is
very demanding and not for the faint of heart or resolve. If we have an
investment in the work, we believe it is very reasonable that a new author
have an investment too. Authors are able to purchase their books from us for
their personal use at a reduction of 60% off the retail price. It is the
best deal in America. You are not required to buy hundreds of books as most
require."

What this says to me is that Tate does have a set policy, at least for new authors, and that policy is in place well before a manuscript is ever read.

Also, the claim to accept "a few authors each year" is completely contradicted by Tate's actual book release numbers--several hundred a month.

[/FONT]

Not having pricing information pasted on the first page isn’t “Omitting “.

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It's omitting the price.

- Victoria

victoriastrauss said:

[FONT=tahoma,verdana,arial,helvetica]
Also, the claim to accept "a few authors each year" is completely contradicted by Tate's actual book release numbers--several hundred a month.
[/FONT]

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Victoria, I think that that (poorly written) sentence meant to indicate that they publish a few non-subsidy authors a year, in addition to their hundreds and hundreds of paying customers.

Also, Mr. Mentzer? HarperCollins is most certainly NOT going to incorporate a fee-for-publishing model. I don't know if you misheard someone who was correctly informed, or if you spoke with someone who was misinformed, but that statement is simply not correct.

victoriastrauss said:

"[FONT=tahoma,verdana,arial,helvetica]1. We take a few authors each year to whom we pay the highest royalty
in the industry (15%) and still participate with our investment in your book
of anywhere from $15,700.00-$19,700.00 of our resources for the production
and nationwide marketing of the work. With a new author we expect an author
participation of only $3,985.50. If you are seriously interested in getting
your book published in the mainstream, give me a call and I can explain how
the author participation works, how the funds are used, and how our authors
recoup that initial investment. If we accepted first time authors with no
participation we could sign a hundred a week. The publishing business is
very demanding and not for the faint of heart or resolve. If we have an
investment in the work, we believe it is very reasonable that a new author
have an investment too. Authors are able to purchase their books from us for
their personal use at a reduction of 60% off the retail price. It is the
best deal in America. You are not required to buy hundreds of books as most
require."
[/FONT]

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The old "we're investing money because we believe in your work and if you believe in your work you'll invest too" scam goes along well with the "we're Christians so you can trust us!" scam.

Also, HarperStudio is now offering a returnable book model to retailers as well as a non-returnable model:

http://publishingassociates.blogspot.com/2008/09/has-harperstudio-experiment-failed.html

victoriastrauss said:

This is from the email that Tate sends to authors who contact it, inviting them to submit their manuscripts. My bolding.

. . .[FONT=tahoma,verdana,arial,helvetica]If we have an
investment in the work, we believe it is very reasonable that a new author
have an investment too. . . .[/FONT]

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Holy schmoley, the author's investment is generally referred to as the manuscript (with the months or years of work behind it). It is the publisher's role to make that investment profitable via publishing.

--Ken

You know, at the end of the day, it all boils down to this: when a writer has to go online to defend their publisher, then they're most likely with the wrong publisher.

Never the less they're with a publisher and they're published. What's wrong with that? Except maybe Tate isn't as good a scammer as one might claim because there're some success stories here. Shame on Tate for having some successes.

:::sigh::: I think the concession supplying kool-aid to the PAvidians is branching out...

Never mind, kid. You paid your four grand. Enjoy the ride.

Since conversation keeps coming up about the different types of contracts offered, I have been asked to relate information concerning the types of contracts we offer.

1. We have author investment contracts.
2. We have no investment contracts.
3. We have author advance contracts.

As stated in our FAQ, authors should expect the contract to have an investment. In fact, here is the link to request your own FAQ information. A message from Dr. Tate is at the top, and if you'll scroll down, you'll see answers to many of the questions that keep surfacing:

http://www.tatepublishing.com/submit.php

If any of your questions aren't covered in this site, then by all means give me a call--Stacy Baker at 405-376-4900.

I'm not sure what specific question you had, Victoria, but you are more than welcome to contact me personally by phone if you have any other questions. In fact, I would extend the same offer to you as I have extended to Ann C. We would love to pay all of your expenses to come here and sit down with us, tour the facility, and discuss any concerns you may have.

An incorrect comment such as we release "several hundred" books a month leads me to believe that in spite of your efforts to help authors, you are receiving incorrect information from somewhere. We hope you'll take us up on our offer to travel here at our expense so we can get your questions, concerns, and any misinformation cleared up and worked out. If you'll call the 405-376-4900 number and ask to speak with Stacy Baker, I'll be glad to make all of the necessary travel arrangements for you.

Stacy Baker said:

1. We have author investment contracts.
2. We have no investment contracts.
3. We have author advance contracts.

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Out of curiosity, what percentage of authors receive these various options?

Also, what type of criteria do you use when deciding?

Stacy Baker said:

An incorrect comment such as we release "several hundred" books a month leads me to believe that in spite of your efforts to help authors, you are receiving incorrect information from somewhere.

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Apologies--my comment was sloppy. I should have said "up to 100 or even more books a month" (141 in September, 95 in August, and 114 in July 2008, according to Amazon). That does add up to several hundred books a quarter, but that wasn't what I said, and you're right to call me on it.

Those figures still don't support the claim in Tate's "welcome" email to accept "a few authors each year."

- Victoria

shame on you John, "kid?" your Holy than thou attitude is amusing but being arrogant doesn't make one an expert.

Stacy Baker said:

Since conversation keeps coming up about the different types of contracts offered, I have been asked to relate information concerning the types
of contracts we offer.

1. We have author investment contracts.

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You mean subsidy contracts. Tate can call them butter churns for all I care, but it doesn't change the fact that they are subsidy publishing contracts. And the vast majority of Tate Publishing contracts are subsidy publishing contracts.

How do I know this? In the months of June, July, and August of this year, you published 314 books under Tate Publishing. Per your own FAQ page, you indicate you give "a few" authors non-subsidy contracts each year. That's a pretty clear indication that the vast majority of your authors pay to be published.

2. We have no investment contracts.

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So does PublishAmerica, but that doesn’t change the fact that they are a vanity press.

3. We have author advance contracts.

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PublishAmerica offers all of their authors a one dollar ($1.00) advance. But that doesn’t change the fact that they are a vanity press.

If Tate were offering the vast majority of their authors contracts with an advance, it might help their reputation. But they aren’t. They remain a vanity/subsidy publisher that just happens to offer a few authors a free ride.

As stated in our FAQ, authors should expect the contract to have an investment. In fact, here is the link to request your own FAQ information. A message from Dr. Tate is at the top, and if you'll scroll down, you'll see answers to many of the questions that keep surfacing:

http://www.tatepublishing.com/submit.php

If any of your questions aren't covered in this site, then by all means give me a call--Stacy Baker at 405-376-4900.

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Please, we don't need the phone number. We got it the last two times you posted it.

You must have missed HapiSofi's partial dissection of Tate's FAQ page. Here's the link to her post. It's post #472.

I notice that you were hired by Tate Publishing in 2005 and that you also had your book published not long thereafter. Your experience in publishing has been limited to what you have learned at a vanity/subsidy operation. Perhaps if you spent some time working for a commercial/trade publisher you would understand why Tate's business model is not a good option for a serious writer.

Leon. R. Mentzer said:

shame on you John, "kid?" your Holy than thou attitude is amusing but being arrogant doesn't make one an expert.

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Didn't say I was an expert, friend. I'm still learning the ropes, as are we all. What I did do was secure the services of a top-flight, non-fee-charging agent a couple of years ago, and so far I have three commerically-published novels out, and a fourth under contract.

They've done fairly well, the reviews were good, and each netted me an advance in the low-five figures (meaning I didn't pay them, they paid me, which is the way it's supposed to work...really).

Plus for the past three years I've been on teaching staff at one of the largest writing conferences in the country, and consequently have made some some invaluable contacts--and friendships--in this business.

That said, I'm still learning. And one thing I've learned is a novel publishable by one is publishable by another...the caveat being, of course, that the craft is there. And I'm sorry, but paying a publisher, any publisher, four grand to put your book into print tells me either a) the craft is lacking, or b) the author chose that as a shortcut.

Not having read your work, I cannot say which category you fall into. If it's the latter, you may decide to try again next time with a commercial house. At any rate, the best of luck to you. And I mean that.

Just a reminder, folks (and this isn't aimed at anyone in particular--just a general caution)--let's keep it civil, and focus on the facts. Thanks.

- Victoria

Thank you for the correction in numbers, Victoria. Apology accepted, completely not necessary, but thank you.

Thank you John.

It was the latter.
Time was limited for me. I was told that I had less than six months due to an illness no one could ID. Being a CEO, I'm used to taking the bull by the horns. I searched/researched and searched again. AW being the number one site visited. I made the choice based on need, timeframe, investment needed and payback. I knew that selling enough books to cover my investment wasn’t going to be that hard. (For me).

I submitted my book all over. 28 publishers in all. 25 of them either ignored me or send a short reply, (No Thanks). 3 asked for more. I choose Tate. Largely due to my time limit.
The other two gave no guarantee on release date and also retained North American rights to the book for a period of time.

Less then one month after the first book came out my new doctor identified the problem.
I’m still here. LOL

I was and still am committed to participating in the marketing of my books. I travel all over the world Hosting the “Information is Power Marketing Seminars for Authors”.
I sell my books as well as give each of the attendees a free copy.

So the investment was a good fit. I have sold the screen play rights to my first book for five one hour TV shows. Something that you can’t do if you don’t have control of the book. Both books are being translated in Spanish and being re-released. I have a 3rd book coming out and have sold the screen rights for a two hour made for TV movie.

I now have a second career, which I treat as if I was still in the corporate office. Was it worth it? Yes, for me. For someone else? Don’t know. I had a publisher rep on board one of my seminar cruises and he told me that if he gets a book instead of a manuscript, he looks at the book first. Easier he said.

So if I decided to switch publishers I’ll be submitting the finish book and go to the top of the reviewing list. But I don't pay anything now for any of my new book(s)...

Being published, having your book in hand is (my opinion) better than holding 700 pages of double spaced paper.

Thank you again John, we are truly learning something today.

Blessings to everyone

I just want to add a small note into this conversation and then return to my lurking status.

Just to respond to Leon (and can I say wow, and I am so glad things worked out for you health wise, seriously . . .wow) about the film rights issue. That tends not to be much of one for most commercially published writers. Most agents will hold back film rights for their authors, and so very few authors give over that control to a publishing house. Every author I know has sold such rights independent of their publishing contacts. While I think Tate worked wonderfully for you, and things seem to be going excellently well in that regard, I just wanted to educate possibly some of the other lurkers here that most usually an author will retain film rights on their work and therefore it isn't a benefit necessarily to go with Tate for that reason. There may be others, but retaining film rights is not one of them.

Also if you are not represented but presented with a contract that stipulates you must give up those rights I would highly urge any author to negotiate that point (publishing contracts are ALWAYS negotiated, never feel guilty as an author for wanting to do so).