What constitutes a polished MS? Or How to be a more prolific writer

C.J. Rockwell · Apr 11, 2008

As I edit my MG novel and other projects I've been working on, I've been wondering something for a long time. First, I should say I'm unpublished at this point, I just thought this would be an interesting topic bring up.

Anyway, with the competition being so tight to get published, and the bar of quality is set high enough to give writers a nosebleed, has anyone found that there's a weird thing going on in polishing your MS for the big time?

What I mean is this. Once you have the best incarnation of your manuscript that's as clean and strong as you can make it, it's accepted for publication, and then…the editor wants changes to be made. Do you find it a little frustrating?

With all the talk of making sure your MS is polished and ready to go before going into the submission phase, doesn't it feel awkward to still find more editing and/or rewriting is needed?

After all, with agents and editors as busy as they are, they wouldn't take you on if the MS were extremely rough and unprofessional, so what gives?

I ask this because I've been hearing many published writers say to focus more on the "body" of work, and to think longer term than your current book. I've come to agree, but the idea of "Write something, send it out, write something else," is a bit terrifying. Even though I've written other novels and short stories, I wouldn't dare submit them now because there are areas that need to be addressed.

So, where's the line between having a polished MS before submitting, and yet still needing editing/rewriting upon acceptance?

Toothpaste · Apr 11, 2008

Not at all.

Personally I love getting edited. Okay I don't love the process, it can be frustrating, but I have yet to have an editor who didn't have the best interests in mind for my MS. But I never thought, even when my MS was polished that it was perfect. Heck even published I don't see it as perfect. There is always something to tweak, some small thing that could improve it. Also editors and agents come from a very unique perspective, even if you have beta readers, editors and agents notice things that are forehead slap worthy, "Oh d'uh! Of course I should change that, what was I thinking?"

But you also have to remember you don't have to take all the suggestions of your editor. I certainly don't. But most often their suggestions are right on the mark. I sincerely do not see how having an editor who is passionate about your work working with you to make it the best it possibly can be is a bad thing.

You also seem to think that in having a work edited it must be quite rough. I find the more close you are to a "polished" MS the more little things need to be fixed. Spelling and grammar, the act of story telling and story structure, those are givens, editors and agents don't want to work with someone who doesn't even have the fundamentals. They are working to improve an already awesome story. Look at it a bit like when you buy a car. You find the car you want, it's awesome, it gets great mileage and handles curves beautifully. But you want to customise it. You want it blue instead of red. You want "On Star". You want a leather interior. When you finish with it, it's still the same awesome car, but it's just that more special. That isn't to say some people don't just buy the car as is, and some editors do just buy a MS as is, but most people want to tweak things.

Editing is not a bad thing. It is good. It is exciting. It makes the difference between a decent book and a great book. And it is part of the process.

So no, no I don't.

Angela_785 · Apr 11, 2008

The other thing to realize is that editors are more firmly planted in the industry than we ever could be as writers, and see the whole picture. They know the trends, what's drawing interest in book fairs, what foreign publishers are asking for, what themes are the hottest sellers. The suggestions they make are two fold--to make your MS as strong as it can be and to make it the most appealing to the current markets.

By all means, polish your work as much as humanly possible. Above all else, it is great writing that is noticed. But try not to get frustrated. I'm thinking that when you do get a publishing contract and see the edits that are asked of you, you'll find yourself excited rather than frustrated, because you'll be able to see how the changes will make your book even stronger.

Angela

Claudia Gray · Apr 11, 2008

I've been both thrilled by and grateful for both edit letters I've received so far. Did I work hard on the original versions of both novels? Yes. Did I feel the editorial revisions made them even better? Absolutely. It is NEVER frustrating to take your work to a higher level -- that's what we're here for.

And yes, a good editor can find flaws/themes/promise in your manuscript that you'd never find in a hundred years of revision. That's why they do what they do.

bethany · Apr 11, 2008

I have a very hands on agent, too. So the process goes on and on.

C.J. Rockwell · Apr 11, 2008

This is great discussion and has helped me see the picture better.

But I need to clarify a few things. I do believe in all that's been said. What I meant was how do you know when your MS is polished enough to be taken seriously, even if your best incarnation of it can be better still?

bethany · Apr 11, 2008

okay, well I'll try to answer this. Handcuffs was my second novel and the first one I queried widely (book 1 languishes in drawer- sent 10 queries, got 4 requests, but I shelved it).

I revised it until what I was doing was just changing random phrasing, so I knew there was nothing more that I knew to do to it. Luckily my agent and later the editor who bought it were willing to work with me, because I over-plot, problem-glut, snarl up the entire storyline, etc. I would not have been able to work out those problems on my own.

Toothpaste · Apr 11, 2008

In my opinion you send out the work that you think is ready. It isn't that you send something out in the hopes of it later being edited, it is simply the fact that it most likely will be. Make the work as good as you can. Now you can ask, "How do I know when it is good enough?" and that I can't answer. You will have a guy instinct about it, you will be proud and think you deserve to be published as much as the next person. You will know when you think your work is ready. Don't send something out thinking "Ah well they will just edit it anyway". The exciting thing about editors is that they notice things you didn't. They improve on what you didn't think could be improved on. It's cool.

C.J. Rockwell · Apr 11, 2008

Toothpaste said:
Don't send something out thinking "Ah well they will just edit it anyway". The exciting thing about editors is that they notice things you didn't. They improve on what you didn't think could be improved on. It's cool.

I would never do that, I'm just feeling at a crossroads right now.

You're right, it is cool that someone has the skill to see how your story can be better than you ever imagined.

I'll say again I believe that everything said here is true, I just wanted to hear from some people who are a little farther down the road than me right now.

I just have been wondering how much more I can do with the stories I've done. I don't want to appear unprofessional or like I don't respect my work enough to give it the polishing it needs and deserves.

When I'm ready to take that next step, I'll look forward to it rather than fear it.

MsJudy · Apr 11, 2008

CJ, I hear what you're saying. It's not just, "Is this piece ready?" When you have many ideas in your brain, how do you decide when enough is enough for the one you're working on? How do you decide when one is the best you can make it, knowing that it probably could be even better if another pair of eyes could only show you how?

It's such an individual thing. Some people keep working on the same piece over and over until it succeeds. I'm finding that I'm happier doing my best and then moving on, because the next project starts off better. I learn so much from one that the next one is easier. And knowing I have several ideas to finish takes some of the pressure off the current one to be Terrific.

C.J. Rockwell · Apr 11, 2008

JudScotKev said:
CJ, I hear what you're saying. It's not just, "Is this piece ready?" When you have many ideas in your brain, how do you decide when enough is enough for the one you're working on? How do you decide when one is the best you can make it, knowing that it probably could be even better if another pair of eyes could only show you how?

It's such an individual thing. Some people keep working on the same piece over and over until it succeeds. I'm finding that I'm happier doing my best and then moving on, because the next project starts off better. I learn so much from one that the next one is easier. And knowing I have several ideas to finish takes some of the pressure off the current one to be Terrific.

Yes! That's exactly what I meant JSK. I'm glad I posted this topic, I'm starting to get an idea of what I'm going to do.

Thanks for everyone's honesty, it's helped a lot.

scope · Apr 11, 2008

Toothpaste gave you excellent insight and advice. If you follow what he said, and if you have faith that what you wrote is worthy of publication, you will be okay. Don't over think it or make more out of it than it is.

Chicken Warrior · Apr 11, 2008

scope said:
Toothpaste gave you excellent insight and advice. If you follow what he said, and if you have faith that what you wrote is worthy of publication, you will be okay.

What she said, actually, but yes I agree. You will find that if you go back to manuscripts you thought were perfectly polished months ago you will always be able to fix things. Finding the balance is why you have beta readers and nasty rejections

Angela_785 · Apr 11, 2008

There's good advice here. I think confidence is the best weapon you can have, but it has to be a genuinely won confidence, something that comes from knowing how hard you have studied the elements of writing, be it through your writing, reading, critiquing other members and learning together. You begin to see what makes a good story, can acknowledge your weaker areas and strive to strenthen all aspects of your work. If you can be honest with yourself that you have done these things, and be confident that your work is as strong as you can make it (opposed to,'I'm so sick of this, I need to send it out') then it's time to shop it.

C.J. Rockwell · Apr 12, 2008

Thanks so much to everyone who took the time to give me such wonderful advice-

scope said:
Toothpaste gave you excellent insight and advice. If you follow what he said, and if you have faith that what you wrote is worthy of publication, you will be okay. Don't over think it or make more out of it than it is.

You got me scope, I have a habit of over-thinking myself. Mostly because I don't want to fool myself into thinking everything's fine when I know something's wrong with what I've written.

I have gotten good advice, and I intend to follow it. Most of it I've already learned, but sometimes you need a refresher course.

Chicken Warrior said:
You will find that if you go back to manuscripts you thought were perfectly polished months ago you will always be able to fix things. Finding the balance is why you have beta readers and nasty rejections

Believe me, I know what that's like. Most of the projects I'm working on are things I wrote over two years ago and I definitely see a difference in the skill I had then, compared my more recent stuff. I'm just wondering what my balance is.

Angela_785 said:
There's good advice here. I think confidence is the best weapon you can have, but it has to be a genuinely won confidence, something that comes from knowing how hard you have studied the elements of writing, be it through your writing, reading, critiquing other members and learning together. You begin to see what makes a good story, can acknowledge your weaker areas and strive to strengthen all aspects of your work. If you can be honest with yourself that you have done these things, and be confident that your work is as strong as you can make it (opposed to, 'I'm so sick of this, I need to send it out') then it's time to shop it.

This is so true Angela. It took the last two years for me to finally fully acknowledge my weaknesses (Suspending disbelief is a big one in what I write).

You also hit the nail on the head in how I'm feeling now. I'm so sick of taking my novel apart, tweaking it, taking it apart again, and tweak it some more.

But I know I'll only get rejections if I don't send out my best effort. I'm just paranoid that the editing/rewriting process will "never" end, and I won't send out anything.

What keeps me going in spite of all this is that I do believe in my novel, and I'm hoping when it's ready, somehow I'll know.

I will say this as my own bit of advice. It's a good idea to save an early draft of your novel/short story/etc. So on those days when you feel like such a rookie, you can read your early stuff and remind yourself that it gets better the more you apply yourself.

This is a good discussion, and has helped me get through the "Dark" period of losing my way as a writer that I experienced back in January. But I'm more than okay now, and have been since the end of March, and I'm going to keep applying myself to reach a new level. I hope this thread helps other writers apart from myself.

TrishD · Apr 12, 2008

C.J. Rockwell said:
But I know I'll only get rejections if I don't send out my best effort. I'm just paranoid that the editing/rewriting process will "never" end, and I won't send out anything.

I don't think there is a concrete answer to "You'll know your manuscript is ready when __________." It's just a feeling. Even though you'll see things you want to tweak--even as the sample pages are whizzing through cyberspace to the agent--there has to come a time when you feel ready to take the leap.

Angela_785 · Apr 12, 2008

It really is a gut thing, Trish. And CJ, I also keep early drafts of all my novels--in fact I save a copy of every rewrite, not just to have a sense of accomplishment, but if I get doubts that a scene I had cut may have gotten an emotion or plot point etc more effectively, I can go back and check.

MsJudy · Apr 12, 2008

Having just finished rewriting the ending of my second draft of Toadflax (yay, me!), I'm thinking a lot about this.

One of the keys for me has been really studying the craft. My weakness has always been plotting, so for the past year I've read every book and talked to every person I can find on the subject.

It is HUGE to understand how the elements fit together. As I'm learning, I'm finding I'm able know to say, okay, I know this is better BECAUSE blah blah blah. It's that BECAUSE that is key. We make a million decisions on every page. Every word, every action, so many possibilities. If you really know how it should be to make the story more compelling, it's so much easier to know which possibility to choose.

For example, I knew I needed a stronger final confrontation between MC and antagonist. But I also needed to finish out the sidekick's story arc, give him a chance to finally prove he wasn't a coward. And I needed to make the confrontation be consistent with who the characters had been so far, and I needed everybody to survive at the end... I just kept trying ideas and throwing them out if they didn't satisfy the requirements.

I know a lot of writers don't like outlining and planning, prefer to let the story "unfold," but I sure feel more confident when I understand just what I'm trying to accomplish with each piece.

C.J. Rockwell · Apr 15, 2008

JudScotKev said:
Having just finished rewriting the ending of my second draft of Toadflax (yay, me!), I'm thinking a lot about this.

One of the keys for me has been really studying the craft. My weakness has always been plotting, so for the past year I've read every book and talked to every person I can find on the subject.

It is HUGE to understand how the elements fit together. As I'm learning, I'm finding I'm able know to say, okay, I know this is better BECAUSE blah blah blah. It's that BECAUSE that is key. We make a million decisions on every page. Every word, every action, so many possibilities. If you really know how it should be to make the story more compelling, it's so much easier to know which possibility to choose.

For example, I knew I needed a stronger final confrontation between MC and antagonist. But I also needed to finish out the sidekick's story arc, give him a chance to finally prove he wasn't a coward. And I needed to make the confrontation be consistent with who the characters had been so far, and I needed everybody to survive at the end... I just kept trying ideas and throwing them out if they didn't satisfy the requirements.

I know a lot of writers don't like outlining and planning, prefer to let the story "unfold," but I sure feel more confident when I understand just what I'm trying to accomplish with each piece.

Very true. This is also something I've learned to do this year. In the past when I was just starting out, I needed to write something no matter how rough it was, so I had something to work with and wouldn't lose momentum.

But now I'm finding that I'll spend months and months revising, even on a short story, but I did have some idea of what I was writing.

Now I try to plan things out a little more, so I don't do as much revising, I think. I still can't write a fully detailed outline, but I do have a checklist I do before I write a piece-

Know the names of my characters
A basic summary of the plot
Whether I'll write in 1st or 3rd person
Who my viewpoint character is
How a piece ends (This varies from story to story)
A vague idea of the reader age range (Again, it varies)

For one of the novels I'm starting now, I'll need a more detailed outline so I don't write myself into too many corners. It's a much more complex story than what I've attempted before, and my first novel-length piece for kids with a female protagonist.

I'm slowly irking out details about the world and my heroine. I've written part of the first chapter and a couple key scenes so I could get a handle on my heroine's voice, and I hope by summer I'll start writing the book in stride.

scope · Apr 16, 2008

You have received fantastic advice from a number of people. Just one more thing to bear in mind. Sometimes you can overwork a piece and make it worse.

MsJudy · Apr 16, 2008

CJ, one more thing that comes to mind... So often we talk about the writing, but when I look at the published things that really grab me, there's another aspect that comes into play. It has to do with what the author brings to the table.

These days it isn't so fashionable to imitate Hemingway and Jack London, but maybe more of us should. They went out and lived life, had adventures and then wrote about them. I'm not sure enough beginning writers remember to do that! Hemingway's style would have just been annoying, if he hadn't had such great content driving his stories.

Sometimes it's the expertise that takes a book to a higher level. Like Jeff Stone's Five Ancestors series. They're about the origins of Chinese martial arts--and the author is a Shao Lin kung fu black belt. He knows what he's talking about, and it shows in the books.

Sometimes it takes going through hell in your own life. Ying Chang Compestine's new book Revolution is not a Dinner Party is winning all sorts of awards. I wouldn't want to have to survive the Cultural Revolution just so someday I can win a few literary awards...but if you do have to go through hell, why not turn it into art?

I think as beginners, we need to learn everything we can about the technique and the craft of writing. We need to practice it always. But we also need to feed the creative fires in other ways and become experts on living, not just writing.

C.J. Rockwell · Apr 17, 2008

My comments are in green-

JudScotKev said:
CJ, one more thing that comes to mind... So often we talk about the writing, but when I look at the published things that really grab me, there's another aspect that comes into play. It has to do with what the author brings to the table.

JudScotKev said:
These days it isn't so fashionable to imitate Hemingway and Jack London, but maybe more of us should. They went out and lived life, had adventures and then wrote about them. I'm not sure enough beginning writers remember to do that! Hemingway's style would have just been annoying, if he hadn't had such great content driving his stories.

That's a good point, and I've thought about this at times. Sadly, I've been unable to travel (Due to lack of cash and time commitments), and I don't see that changing for awhile.

This is why I'm glad the reading bug bit me hard at 16, books are great adventures. Sure it's not the same as traveling cross-country for real, but it's the best I can do right now.

Also, I'm a bit of a loner (Not by preference) and it's one of my goals to be more sociable this year.

Sometimes it's the expertise that takes a book to a higher level. Like Jeff Stone's Five Ancestors series. They're about the origins of Chinese martial arts--and the author is a Shao Lin kung fu black belt. He knows what he's talking about, and it shows in the books.

That's definitely true.

Sometimes it takes going through hell in your own life. Ying Chang Compestine's new book Revolution is not a Dinner Party is winning all sorts of awards. I wouldn't want to have to survive the Cultural Revolution just so someday I can win a few literary awards...but if you do have to go through hell, why not turn it into art?

Now this I know I have experienced!

There's a story I've wanted to write for a long time, but have avoided it. The reason is because it would deal with a mentally ill parent.

But I've yet to write it, not just because it hits very close to home, and I would have my mother's blessing, but I started writing because I wanted to entertain as opposed to preaching.

I also didn't want to attempt it for my first book because I didn't want to be in that dark, angry world, I was living in it already. I wrote to escape that world and to entertain.

Not that what I write now is all rainbows and roses. After all, conflict breeds story. It's just that I never wanted to be depressing, and frankly there were other things I wanted to explore with my writing.

The story would be fiction as opposed to nonfiction which I have zero confidence in, and I'm no degree-bearing expert with a "platform." (I'm beginning to be annoyed with that word)

I think as beginners, we need to learn everything we can about the technique and the craft of writing. We need to practice it always. But we also need to feed the creative fires in other ways and become experts on living, not just writing.

You always give me a lot to think about, thanks for that.

MsJudy · Apr 17, 2008

Yeah, I hear you about the choice not to write about the things you've experienced. My ex-husband is bipolar, so yeah, I could go there, but I don't.

On the other hand. After 15 years dealing with his disease, I have become a much more focused, motivated, independent person, and agent rejections sure seem like no big deal. So the experience makes me a better writer, even if I don't actually write about it.

What constitutes a polished MS? Or How to be a more prolific writer

C.J. Rockwell

Not so new, really

Toothpaste

THE RECKLESS RESCUE is out now!

Angela_785

Claudia Gray

bethany

:)

C.J. Rockwell

Not so new, really

bethany

:)

Toothpaste

THE RECKLESS RESCUE is out now!

C.J. Rockwell

Not so new, really

MsJudy

C.J. Rockwell

Not so new, really

scope

Commonsensical Maverick

Chicken Warrior

Ahead of Your Time

Angela_785

C.J. Rockwell

Not so new, really

TrishD

Angela_785

MsJudy

C.J. Rockwell

Not so new, really

scope

Commonsensical Maverick

MsJudy

C.J. Rockwell

Not so new, really

MsJudy