Polygamist raid

I second rugcat. The Krakauer book is fascinating. Escape by Carolyn Jessop was equally as good. Her relative Flora Jessop is a big time thorn in the side of the FLDS. She managed to escape their clutches and does a lot of public education on them.

Here are links to early pics of the compound and updated pics.

http://web.sccn2.net/flds/6-13-05.htm

http://web.sccn2.net/flds/01-06-06.htm

http://web.sccn2.net/flds/02-19-08.htm

Joe270 said:

This apple did not fall far from the tree.

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I'm not a big fan of the Church. But I know a lot of very fine folks who are Mormon.

Before somebody here (I won't name names) accuses me of "prejudice" toward Mormons, let me clarify.

I have disagreement, theologically and philosophically, with LDS teachings, but that's entirely intellectual. I have spent a lot of time in Utah, lived and discussed LDS theology with dedicated Mormons, and have friends to this day among Mormons, including members of the Reorganized Church (which separated itself from the Utah Temple many years ago).

I am absolutely certain that almost all Mormons find the Warren Jeffs of the world disgusting and embarrassing and have no objection to his conviction or to what is now playing out at the compound in Texas. By any reasonable definition, Jeffs is the leader of a cult, and we have ample history to show how these kinds of operations too often play out in murder and horror.

I've urged twice now that people look up Ervil LeBaron to see the end product of this kind of operation. Nobody has yet commented, so I'll provide some context:

In the 1960s-1970s, much like Jeffs, LeBaron followed his father into the leadership of a family-based polygamist cult exiled from standard LDS Church teachings. He rather quickly drifted into a "blood-atonement" cult theology that demanded murder of anyone who disagreed with him. Something on the order of 20 people were murdered at his urging, including one of his brothers, one of his wives and daughters (at the hands of another). Another brother spent many years on the run, under known death threat.

LeBaron was eventually arrested and convicted of murder, sentenced to life in prison, which lasted only about a year before he died of a heart attack in 1981. But his followers murdered at least half-a-dozen other people after his death, and to this day other former followers live in seclusion, fearing retribution.

So, tell me again, why authorities shouldn't be concerned about Warren Jeffs and his flock.

caw

I think a lot of people in Eldorado had the same fears, Blackbird. We didn't (and still don't to some extent) know what the hell was going on out there. We'd heard the horror stories from the young women who'd managed to escape and the Lost Boys who'd been shoved out of the sect when competition for wives became fierce. I remember discussing the issue of blood atonement and Jim Jones and all kinds of other cult craziness with my mother and her coffee drinking circle. They were all very worried that something sinister would happen.

Warren Jeffs also made tons of "end of the world" prophecies. I know that many people were worried that there might be a kool-aid fest out there. When the actual prophesied end of days happened (April 6, 2005, I believe), there was a lot of tension in town. But it was just another uneventful day.

Well. Except for Jim Runge, Eldorado's local comedian. He put up a sign on the town marquee that read: Tomorrow Has Been Canceled. When the sheriff got a lot of complaints, he asked Jim to take it down. He replaced it with: Just Kidding. Tomorrow Has Not Been Canceled After All. He also dressed up as the Grim Reaper on stilts and stood outside the compound gates. (Yeah, he's a bit of a buffoon.)

Jim was quoted that day as saying: “Nothing’s going to happen here tomorrow. Warren will tell his people they haven’t been faithful enough and he will send them back to work,” Runge stated. “But...not before he passes the collection plate.”

Bingo. I really believe that when you get right down to it, it's all about sex and money. Which makes the perversion of Mormon beliefs all that more reprehensible.

I'm not a big fan of the Church. But I know a lot of very fine folks who are Mormon.

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I agree. I know lots and lots of them. More than half of my current neighbors are mormon.

That said, I have fundamental problems with the mormon church, its history,, its practices, and this fundamentalist group. I wrote a lengthy post on this before, but it caused some pain for some folks in this forum who I respect and like very much. I won't go there again.

You send investigators in.

They compile reports on exactly what they see happening. They request the opportunity to speak with suspected victims alone. They report on their success and any suspicions they have.

They present evidence to support their suspicions (this can be subjective--woman would not make eye contact, seemed reluctant to touch and care for child, etc.).

Based on this evidence they request a warrant to detain suspected victims and bring them in for questioning.

If evidence and testimony are acquired, they arrest the individuals who are accused and hold a trial.

I think this is what are talking about when we say "due process."

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Sorry, can't remember the author's name. She ended up working with the Utah Attorney General to begin compiling charges that eventually resulted in Jeff's arrest.

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she was on CNN this evening.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_g...lias=stripbooks&field-keywords=escape&x=0&y=0
said, after she left the compound (b/c her children were so fearful of their father) it took 3 years for them to speak out. and that it's very unlikely that these officers and child protective services will get any children to talk about the abuse. if they're born in the compound and don't know any other way of life then what do they know?! they don't know it's abuse. it's life as they know it. -- i don't think due process will work.

Originally Posted by Julie Worth
One phone call and you arrest 200 people? Come on.

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the women and children have not been arrested.

and blacbird - i'm not 14 - geeez! i'm a full grown woman that can handle 3 men.

NikeeGoddess said:

no one has been arrested... yet.

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Actually, one man has. Although that is for interfering with the law officers, not for any pre-raid charges. Stay tuned.

caw

yeah - sorry, i fixed my post before i saw yours
here it is: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/23999224#23999224

1 man was arrested for interfering with a police investigation. That's it so far. I'm not sure if he's still in the local jail or not. I'd have to ask my mom, lol. The woman is part of the rumor chain in E-town. Everyone knows everyone so info spreads like wildfire...usually over the back fence.

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PattiTheWicked said:

Frankly, I don't care what religion these people are. This has nothing to do with the rest of the world "not tolerating a lifestyle". If a bunch of consenting adults freely choose to cohabit with each other, that's their business -- but THIS is a case of child abuse and sexual assaults. That's not a lifestyle, it's a crime. And if there is enough evidence to show that these things have taken place, someone -- possibly multiple someones -- should be prosecuted.

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That sums it up nicely.

Has anyone gone to prison yet?

Why not?

Autodidact said:

I have. Have you read Escape? (Sorry, can't remember author's name.)

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Carolyn Jessop. I read this book recently, and it's incredible how controlled and brainwashed her children were by the cult. Even after she fled, she had to give her husband unsupervised visitation rights, and IIRC he used that time to persuade the children to tell a CPS person that she was the bad parent.

brittanimae said:

You send investigators in.

They compile reports on exactly what they see happening. They request the opportunity to speak with suspected victims alone. They report on their success and any suspicions they have.

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According to the book, the CPS person told her that he felt sure the kids were lying when they claimed she abused them. However, he wasn't supposed to write down what he thought or suspected, only what he saw and heard. Therefore, he didn't write down anything, since what he saw and heard wouldn't have helped her case.

And these are children who were taken outside the cult. How do you think children inside it would react?

Bartholomew said:

Has anyone gone to prison yet?

Why not?

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This is similar to the invasion of Iraq. Go in with made up evidence and look for real evidence.

The "victim" they're looking for supposodly made two telephone calls a week before the raid, claiming she married one Dale Barlow and had a child by him. However, this Barlow does not live in Texas, and, according to the New York Times, has not been in that state since 1977. He claims not to know this girl, and Texas has not sought his extradition.

Julie Worth said:

This is similar to the invasion of Iraq. Go in with made up evidence and look for real evidence.

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They haven't burned the place to the ground yet or taken everyone out with snipers.

It's a kinder, gentler engagement.

Julie Worth said:

This is similar to the invasion of Iraq. Go in with made up evidence and look for real evidence.

The "victim" they're looking for supposodly made two telephone calls a week before the raid, claiming she married one Dale Barlow and had a child by him. However, this Barlow does not live in Texas, and, according to the New York Times, has not been in that state since 1977. He claims not to know this girl, and Texas has not sought his extradition.

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If the police are correct, someone from within the religious group needs to go to prison.

If the police are incorrect, someone from the police force needs to go to prison.

I lean far more towards the first possibility, but in either case----why hasn't someone been punished?

Bartholomew said:

...but in either case----why hasn't someone been punished?

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Probably because of the constitution. You do have to have a trial first, and establish guilt.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the CPS was required to investigate ALL charges of child abuse regardless of the person accused or the source. When they investigate, if there is any suspicion of truth to the accusations, it is standard procedure for the children to be removed from the home and/or influence of the accused until the truth can be established.

So to me, all of this looks like everyone is doing exactly what they are supposed to be doing.

Hi Julie and Brittanmea,

I've been following this post with a morbid curiosity as to understand you and Brittiania's position.

Not to make this personal, but I get the impression that you've never experienced any hardship or situation in which your life, liberty, or property were at risk.

The reason I say this, is because the logic of your arguments and deductions are so idealistic that I would have sworn that they were conducted by theoritical arosticrats debating the hypotheticals over a glass of cognac.

There are times to hold hypothetical moralistic debates, and then there are times for actions.

THere are great quotes out there about how you judge a society by how it treats the poorest or most unfortunate among us. What say you about a society that tolerates the sexual abuse and abandonment of teenage girls and boys?

In this age, in this society, it is morally apprehensible for a teenage girl to be 'married' to an elderly man against her will. PERIOD. And the 'against her will' part is a biggie since they are 'conditioned' since birth that this is the way it is suppose to be. This is a form of slavery and we abholished slavery about 150 yrs ago.

Is it possible that this cult was a peaceful cult and happy go lucky. Yes, it is possible. And IF this is true, then the authorities will FIND NO EVIDENCE to support the claim that there was sexual misconduct.

However, I believe that to be highly improbable. They will find evidence in the form of little kids running around whose mothers are in fact, 15 - 18 yrs old and simple math will determine that these girls had the children when they were 14 - 17 which means that these men had sex with them 13 - 16 which means that statury rape occurred.

Now, I am a strong proponent for our rights and checks and balances of the government. But never, ever ever, ever ever ever, should we turn a blind eye to an attrocity due to a technicalty or hypothetical moralistic bullshit arguments.

Sometimes, the ends do justify the means. But you must ask yourself, if you must error, if you must make a mistake, which side of the fence do you want to make that mistake on. Would you want to error on the side of the children? Or do you want to error on the side of the adults running this compound?

Error on the side of the children, because if it is an error, if you are wrong, then all you will end up doing is pissing off a bunch of law abidding adults.

But if you error on the side of the adults, and are wrong, then you have abandoned scores of little girls and boys to rape, abandonment, and living a daily ritual of fear, pain, and lord knows what else.

Which side should we error on? If you were a little girl living in this compound, what side would you want the authorities to error on?

Mel...

Julie Worth said:

Probably because of the constitution. You do have to have a trial first, and establish guilt.

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I think the public is sick of evil bullshit happening without anyone being responsible. Just watch--no one will be accountable for anything on either side.

just like Waco under... oh, wait - that was under Clinton's rule, eh?

Good post, dg. But further, what makes Julie and, to a lesser extent, Brittani, convinced that due process is not being followed? There is more than probable cause, and I'm sure they have a warrant. Law enforcement has good reason to believe that crimes are taking place there on a regular basis, crimes with victims. It is their job to enforce the law to protect these victims. How do you suggest they go about doing that?

FLDS is trying to create a little nation, not subject to the laws of the U.S. That ain't gonna work.

I've been following this group and this whole little area of the world for years, and have probably read every book written on the subject. Jeffs and his cronies are not nice people; they are criminal cult-leaders. Before commenting, you really need to inform yourself about them.

Picture it. You're 14 years old. Since you were born, you've been taught every day that your highest calling to be a polygamous wife and bear as many children as possible, and that Warren Jeffs is the prophet of God. One day your dad puts you in the car and tells you, "You've been chosen to marry Joe Smith," who happens to be 75 years old, has 23 wives and 100 children, and whom you've never met. The next day you wake up in his compound, and you're stuck there, never go to high school, cook, clean, take care of kids and get screwed for the rest of your life. That's the basic set-up down there.

dgiharris said:

But if you error on the side of the adults, and are wrong, then you have abandoned scores of little girls and boys to rape, abandonment, and living a daily ritual of fear, pain, and lord knows what else.

Which side should we error on? If you were a little girl living in this compound, what side would you want the authorities to error on?

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What a strange question. Would I want strange men to come barging in with guns and haul me off in buses with First Baptist written on the side of them? I think not.

And I'm on the side of due process, by the way.

And exactly how do you think due process is being violated here? Is there no probably cause? No warrant?

Julie Worth said:

What a strange question. Would I want strange men to come barging in with guns and haul me off in buses with First Baptist written on the side of them? I think not.

And I'm on the side of due process, by the way.

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Due process was followed. A girl called to complain that she was being abused, and the cops acted on it. End of story, except they haven't found the girl yet.

Autodidact said:

Good post, dg. But further, what makes Julie and, to a lesser extent, Brittani, convinced that due process is not being followed?

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That the complainant cannot be produced. That the supposed child cannot be produced. That the supposed husband of the complainant has been found in another state, where he has lived for many years, and professes no knowledge of the complainant. That no effort has been made by the Texas authorities to extradite him. That hundreds have been detained and their homes scoured for evidence, far in excess of any possible legitimate warrant based on two telephone calls from a woman who was apparently not even there.