No, if we were talking about homosexuality among consenting adults. Yes, emphatically, if we were talking about pedophilia. WHICH WE ARE. What part of the word ped-o-phil-i-a do you not understand?
caw
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Polygamist raid
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No, if we were talking about homosexuality among consenting adults. Yes, emphatically, if we were talking about pedophilia. WHICH WE ARE. What part of the word ped-o-phil-i-a do you not understand?
caw
I'm baffled by the cries of "stop persecuting the Mormons", and wonder if we'd hear them if this group was not in fact a religious sect. Lets' say there was a compound full of people who did not share a common religion -- a group of, let's say, toaster oven inspectors, or vacuum cleaner salesmen -- who were doing the things this group is accused of -- condoning the sexual abuse of young girls. Would it be okay to arrest them then?
Frankly, I don't care what religion these people are. This has nothing to do with the rest of the world "not tolerating a lifestyle". If a bunch of consenting adults freely choose to cohabit with each other, that's their business -- but THIS is a case of child abuse and sexual assaults. That's not a lifestyle, it's a crime. And if there is enough evidence to show that these things have taken place, someone -- possibly multiple someones -- should be prosecuted.
Frankly, I don't care what religion these people are. This has nothing to do with the rest of the world "not tolerating a lifestyle". If a bunch of consenting adults freely choose to cohabit with each other, that's their business -- but THIS is a case of child abuse and sexual assaults. That's not a lifestyle, it's a crime. And if there is enough evidence to show that these things have taken place, someone -- possibly multiple someones -- should be prosecuted.
You send investigators in.
They compile reports on exactly what they see happening. They request the opportunity to speak with suspected victims alone. They report on their success and any suspicions they have.
They present evidence to support their suspicions (this can be subjective--woman would not make eye contact, seemed reluctant to touch and care for child, etc.).
Based on this evidence they request a warrant to detain suspected victims and bring them in for questioning.
If evidence and testimony are acquired, they arrest the individuals who are accused and hold a trial.
I think this is what are talking about when we say "due process."
They compile reports on exactly what they see happening. They request the opportunity to speak with suspected victims alone. They report on their success and any suspicions they have.
They present evidence to support their suspicions (this can be subjective--woman would not make eye contact, seemed reluctant to touch and care for child, etc.).
Based on this evidence they request a warrant to detain suspected victims and bring them in for questioning.
If evidence and testimony are acquired, they arrest the individuals who are accused and hold a trial.
I think this is what are talking about when we say "due process."
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At the age of 14?
If they were 50?
Or your cousins?
Under threat that you'd go to Hell and burn forever if you didn't?
Get real.
caw
Um, right. Because raping and impregnating teenagers is morally synonymous with homosexuality. No difference at all. Are we still on AW?
I have. Have you read Escape? (Sorry, can't remember author's name.) It's by a woman who grew up and married within this group. She tells, from the inside, about child abuse, wife-beating, forced marriage, under-age marriage, and general misery, as well as lot of criminal activity. She wonders at length why the Arizona Department of Social Services did not intervene to protect children there. The police department in the town was entirely staffed by members of the FLDS, so there was no where a battered woman or child could go for help. In fact, if a girl ran away rather than face marriage to a man three times her age, the police would bring her back. She left because she thought Warren Jeffs (now in jail for forcing a girl to marry against her will) was bringing the group to an apocalyptic end, and it looks like she was right.
Yes, and how unfortunate for the many victims of the Catholic priests that the SWAT teams didn't step in. Might have stopped a few lives from being wrecked...
You're right that the "mob mentality" of the public is easily aroused - but that is just as true when talking about the segment of the public that sees any government questioning of religious groups as being unacceptable and a sign of persecution.
Fact is that there is a whole lot that goes on in the churches that shouldn't - some, like the abuse by Catholic priests, is blatantly illegal, some, like the emotional abuse and manipulation detailed in the Jesus Camp documentary, isn't technically illegal but would be recognized as child abuse by almost anyone not under the spell of the church.
Most religions qualify as cults, especially if you look at the practices of the extremist followers of that religion. I feel sorry for any child born into a family of fanatics. However, I also recognize that unless actual laws are broken, there is unfortunately nothing that can be done.
But in this case, there is an accusation of laws being broken, the police have every right to investigate, and given the known of beliefs of this group, there is every reason to believe that many more girls suffered the same fate as the one who called. It's important to keep in mind that was not the police coming in and taking the women and children - it was CSD, and THEY were acting because they had good reason to believe that the girl who made the call was far from the only victim.
You need to know more about this group. What you have is forced polygamous marriage of teenage girls to men two and three times their age. The men have total control over their entire harem of anywhere from 2-50 wives and their children. It's a very scary, dangerous group.
Also they preach "blood atonement." Do you know what that is? It's murder.
No, she's just the source that tipped them off to rampant abuse; that's what they're investigating. That's their job.
But doesn't anyone think this is being conducted in an illegal and immoral way??
Also, Not Without My Daughter gives a similar view of Islam, and Leaving the Saints brings up concerns with the run-of-the-mill Mormons. A memoir is not evidence for a raid.
Also, Not Without My Daughter gives a similar view of Islam, and Leaving the Saints brings up concerns with the run-of-the-mill Mormons. A memoir is not evidence for a raid.
Julie: this is what happens in that group. An elderly man goes to the prophet to request a specific young girl, age 14-18. He already has a few dozen wives and scores of children. The prophet reveals that the girl is meant to be his wife. Her parents bring her to him, ignoring her pleas, and within days she finds herself wife # 40 of a man in his seventies, assigned to take care of the 10-15 children of one of his other wives, and clean and work for the senior wives, and occasionally chosen by the husband for sex. She has no say in the matter. She bears as many children as she can as soon as she can. The children belong to and are subject to the will of the patriarch. If they disobey, they are beaten. Teenage sons are driven out of the compound. Teenage girls will be married off to another elderly powerful member of the church. There is no public school and no medical care. That's the basic set-up.
40 or 50 if they're lucky. Elderly apostles and prophets collect wives like bowling trophies. I mean 70, 80 year old men.
Correct. Those of you who think these people are nice quiet peace-loving Amish farmers being persecuted by the evil Government Overlords, check this out:
http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/classics/ervil_lebaron_cult/index.html
caw
brittan: law enforcement in these states have been interviewing escapees and collecting evidence to prosecute for a long time; they just decided to move based on this complaint.
Hi, I'm baaa--aaack.
My thought remains that the level of action should be commensurate with the crime, and the crimes which allegedly occurred still do not seem to command the level of attention and action that have been heaped upon this community. I maintain that such investigations should be carried out thoughtfully, planned in advance, and designed to unsettle the people who voluntarily practice this religion as little as possible. Child Protective Services does much good, but they also do much harm when great care is not taken to consider the best interests of the children being served.
And witch hunt? Yes. I see mobs of people jumping to ill-supported conclusions because they don't agree with this life-style. Would so many people be hopping on the band-wagon if we were talking about homosexuality? Well, actually, yes. About 30 years ago, they would have.
At this point there's been a steady supply of escaped wives and "lost boys" who have been filling the authorities in on what goes on in this group. Based on all of that, and this phone call, the government is concerned that children are being sexually and physically abused in this compound. What do you suggest they do, ignore it?
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I'm not trying to be a smarta** here, but I can't imagine that you truly believe the police, when receiving the phone call for help, would phone to make an appointment to talk to the girl or to look for potential witnesses in the camp. They wouldn't send two cops there to wander in past the armed guards, knock on the door and ask to talk. If they did, they would get no answers at all. They would get nothing. They wouldn't even get their foot in the door. The women and children would be TOLD what to say, would be threatened about what would happen to them. How would they know that, in the next room, another man was holding a gun on the women gathered in there to keep them from being quiet. What if they had tried to go in to speak to everyone, were asked to leave and come back with a warrant, and came back two hours later to find everyone had taken a koolaid cocktail and was now dead on the floor?
The minute the police suspect this is the case, they have to react differently. They received a call for help because someone was in trouble. They believed the situation could be life-threatening to the girl. They have a responsibility to get anyone who might be a victim or who could be in harms way by no choice of their own out of the way and to safety. They have no way of predicting how the men in the camp will act. They also have a responsibility to react quickly for the girl's sake.
What if it was your neighbor who threatened his wife and children? She phones the police to say that she thinks he will kill her and the kids and she needs help. The police are going to go to the neighbors and ask them to leave the area because its not safe. If the neighbors don't go, the police will move them for their own protection, especially if there are children or a school next door. If they go to a house and find two ten-year-olds without a parent, what should the police do? Leave the kids sitting there? Are they going to knock on the door where the guy is waving a gun around and ask him if he wants to talk? They may try to phone him and negotiate. That's what they claim they did with the community in Texas. Sadly, this smaller scenario happens all the time all over the continent. It's handled the same way.
They've done that. The group will not let them talk to the complainant. That's the problem.
Sorry, can't remember the author's name. She ended up working with the Utah Attorney General to begin compiling charges that eventually resulted in Jeff's arrest.
No. Why do you? How does this differ from a raid on a reported crack house? Or a business employing lots of illegal aliens? I confess, I am completely mystified at this reaction to what has happened in the Texas compound.
caw
I've been debating all day whether or not to jump in here....
For the record I was born and raised in Eldorado, Texas. My entire extended family lives there. My very close friends own land surrounding the FLDS compound. Yes, it is a compound. The FLDS members lied when they purchased the land from my friend, Krystal's, family. At the time the land was used for an exotic game ranch. The FLDS purchased the land under the guise of building a ranching retreat. (This is pretty common in E-town. We're literally in the middle of nowhere. A lot of wealthy folks build/buy small ranching operations and turn them into hunting/winter retreats.)
Within weeks of purchasing the land, they began building massive dormitories. Soon they had built their own cement plant. A bulk cement plant, folks. This thing rivals the cement plant that's used at the oil and gas servicing district where my father works. Next it was a stone quarry, complete with dynamite explosions numerous times a day. When local pilots realized the extent of the building on the ranch, they made sure to take aerial photos for documentation. They are astounding.
They surrounded their land with massive gates and fences and security cameras. They manned the entrances to their ranch with armed guards. Yes, armed guards. Last fall while driving out to visit a friend who lives down the same road, I was followed by two trucks with armed men in the passenger seats. As a young woman, I can't tell you how terrifying that is, especially when you realize that there is absolutely NO cell phone service that far out in the boondocks.
Numerous attempts have been made to gain entry onto the YFZ (Yearning for Zion) ranch. TCEQ (Texas Commission for Environmental Equality) finally gained access to the ranch after threatening legal ramifications if they weren't allowed to carry out inspections on the bulk plant and other operations. TCEQ managed to take a few sheriff's deputies with them onto the land, the first time our local law enforcement was able to get a good look at what the hell was going on out there. It quickly became clear that the FLDS was moving a large number of followers onto their compound. For the record, yes, they were fined for their operations.
I'm sure a lot of people wonder why citizens of Eldorado or our local law enforcement haven't done anything before this. You have to understand that Eldorado is a town of less than 2000. We have one main intersection, one grocery store, and a school that has less than 600 students pre-k-12th grade. We have one sheriff and four deputies (when fully staffed.) The closest CPS is in San Angelo (55 miles north of E-town.) People in town educated themselves as much as possible on the subject of the FLDS. Our law enforcement tried to keep the best tabs on the compound they could.
Anyone who thinks the FLDS men would have allowed the sheriff and a few CPS workers to waltz onto that ranch and ask the children or women questions is crazy. It was never going to happen. I can't begin to explain my surprise at the bravery of that young girl to make that phone call. Honestly, I'm surprised she was able to get near a phone or a phone book. Now that she's missing, I'm terrified for her and her baby. God only knows where they took her. There were a few days between the time the call was made and the raid began. That was plenty of time to smuggle her off the ranch.
I'm happy to answer questions, etc. I hope this provides a little background on the FLDS and their sudden appearance in Eldorado.
For the record I was born and raised in Eldorado, Texas. My entire extended family lives there. My very close friends own land surrounding the FLDS compound. Yes, it is a compound. The FLDS members lied when they purchased the land from my friend, Krystal's, family. At the time the land was used for an exotic game ranch. The FLDS purchased the land under the guise of building a ranching retreat. (This is pretty common in E-town. We're literally in the middle of nowhere. A lot of wealthy folks build/buy small ranching operations and turn them into hunting/winter retreats.)
Within weeks of purchasing the land, they began building massive dormitories. Soon they had built their own cement plant. A bulk cement plant, folks. This thing rivals the cement plant that's used at the oil and gas servicing district where my father works. Next it was a stone quarry, complete with dynamite explosions numerous times a day. When local pilots realized the extent of the building on the ranch, they made sure to take aerial photos for documentation. They are astounding.
They surrounded their land with massive gates and fences and security cameras. They manned the entrances to their ranch with armed guards. Yes, armed guards. Last fall while driving out to visit a friend who lives down the same road, I was followed by two trucks with armed men in the passenger seats. As a young woman, I can't tell you how terrifying that is, especially when you realize that there is absolutely NO cell phone service that far out in the boondocks.
Numerous attempts have been made to gain entry onto the YFZ (Yearning for Zion) ranch. TCEQ (Texas Commission for Environmental Equality) finally gained access to the ranch after threatening legal ramifications if they weren't allowed to carry out inspections on the bulk plant and other operations. TCEQ managed to take a few sheriff's deputies with them onto the land, the first time our local law enforcement was able to get a good look at what the hell was going on out there. It quickly became clear that the FLDS was moving a large number of followers onto their compound. For the record, yes, they were fined for their operations.
I'm sure a lot of people wonder why citizens of Eldorado or our local law enforcement haven't done anything before this. You have to understand that Eldorado is a town of less than 2000. We have one main intersection, one grocery store, and a school that has less than 600 students pre-k-12th grade. We have one sheriff and four deputies (when fully staffed.) The closest CPS is in San Angelo (55 miles north of E-town.) People in town educated themselves as much as possible on the subject of the FLDS. Our law enforcement tried to keep the best tabs on the compound they could.
Anyone who thinks the FLDS men would have allowed the sheriff and a few CPS workers to waltz onto that ranch and ask the children or women questions is crazy. It was never going to happen. I can't begin to explain my surprise at the bravery of that young girl to make that phone call. Honestly, I'm surprised she was able to get near a phone or a phone book. Now that she's missing, I'm terrified for her and her baby. God only knows where they took her. There were a few days between the time the call was made and the raid began. That was plenty of time to smuggle her off the ranch.
I'm happy to answer questions, etc. I hope this provides a little background on the FLDS and their sudden appearance in Eldorado.
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Joe270
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I recall the coverage on this compound in San Antonio. About every other week there was something in the news.
No one wanted them there, and none of the negotiations were honest or above-board.
I'm surprised they haven't raided the place earlier.
No one wanted them there, and none of the negotiations were honest or above-board.
I'm surprised they haven't raided the place earlier.
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Jon Krakauer wrote a fascinating book about Mormon Fundamentalists, Under The Banner Of Heaven focusing on Ron and Dan Lafferty, infamous in Utah.
Note that the LDS Church completely rejects these fundamentalist sects, though they were not too happy with Krakauer's book, which placed the fundamentalist movement squarely in the the context of Mormon tradition.
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