Polygamist raid

Mr. Fix said:

Well, if the WEB says so, it must be true.

Click to expand...

I'm just trying to point out that putting children in the custody of a government agency is not necessarily a good thing, especially when this is done en masse for political/religious reasons.

blacbird said:

Hogwash. Thrice distilled. caw

Click to expand...

Brilliant.

Julie Worth said:

I'm just trying to point out that putting children in the custody of a government agency is not necessarily a good thing, especially when this is done en masse for political/religious reasons.

Click to expand...

Your idea that this raid took place "en masse for political/religious reasons" is the purest kind of unsupported assertion. You don't have a clue what specific information authorities have concerning this group or their compound, so you blithely assume they have none and are just acting as a jackbooted Gestapo or something, to satisfy your own set of biases against governmental agencies in general.

What is known about this group strikes me (and most others here, I think I can say without exaggeration) is plenty enough to warrant the action taken. The leader, the self-proclaimed "prophet", who had the place built and the people moved there, is a convicted pedophile or pedophile-enabler, with the ability to convince large numbers of people to follow him more or less blindly, and to isolate themselves from contact with the outside world. In other words, another potential Jim Jones or David Koresh. And the allegation of forced marriage of underaged girls to older men at the Texas compound only mirrors the well-established practice of the same thing in the Utah stronghold.

It was a big raid because there were a hell of a lot of people there, including 400-some children, any of whom may well have been exposed to the same forms of manipulation and sexual abuse as the ones in Utah. Now, you can go on justifying that practice, if you like, but at least have the intellectual honesty to admit that's what you're doing.

The prejudice against this Mormon cult-group you allege to be behind all this isn't prejudice against Mormonism. It isn't even prejudice against "plural marriage", per se. It's prejudice against exploitation and abuse of minors, and I, for one, am right glad such prejudice exists. Are you?

caw

Julie Worth said:

I'm just trying to point out that putting children in the custody of a government agency is not necessarily a good thing, especially when this is done en masse for political/religious reasons.



Brilliant.

Click to expand...

I thought it was determined that they were:

1. Not "in custody," and that
2. Their compound was raided--not for political/religious reasons--but for child safety issues

Tiger said:

I thought it was determined that they were:

1. Not "in custody," and that
2. Their compound was raided--not for political/religious reasons--but for child safety issues

Click to expand...

blacbird said:

The prejudice against this Mormon cult-group you allege to be behind all this isn't prejudice against Mormonism. It isn't even prejudice against "plural marriage", per se. It's prejudice against exploitation and abuse of minors, and I, for one, am right glad such prejudice exists. Are you? caw

Click to expand...

All sorts of government misconduct can be hidden behind a cry of child abuse. It’s all-purpose; the mob mentality of the public is easily aroused. But here the Texas authorities have engaged in an enormous invasion, disrupting hundreds of lives, and all based (apparently) on a telephone call and a dubious legal basis. Compare that to the Catholic church, which has had countless scandals involving abuse of minors, but never did swat teams converge like this.

Gee, maybe that's because the priests that were pedophiles weren't holed up in their own little fiefdom, complete with weapons and kids. Which they were marrying off to their followers and/or themselves.

There was, and has been, plenty of outrage over the abuses of those priests, and the heirarchy that protected them.

William Haskins said:

the complaint was from a 16 year old saying she was married to a 50 year old man and had given birth to his child.

Click to expand...

I'm not taking sides, but for the record, she was 14 when she conceived, 16 when she complained.
Unfortunately that constitutes a high crime in our country. One of the highest and the authorities have every right to enter with a search warrant.

People here know that I believe that the Sex Offender laws are 98% way too far-reaching, but this is EXACTLY what the original intent of the law was for.
This girl is being raped and abused, she does not like it, and she is pleading for help.

OK I AM taking sides!!!!

http://usmarriagelaws.com/search/uni...my/index.shtml
they missed a couple shot gun marriage and green card marriage lol! and soon they'll have to list same sex marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by reigningcatsndogs
In the meantime, the police have an obligation to help that one child. If she were your daughter, would you not demand the same?

Click to expand...

They have now taken 400 children into custody, but not the 16 year old in question (and the legal age in Texas is 16). If I were the parent of any of those 400, I'd be hopping mad.

Click to expand...

the mothers were allowed to go with the children. the fathers are not allowed to visit. i can see how the fathers would be hopping mad but the mothers... i'm sure many of them don't want to see their 14 year old begging to stay a virgin and not having to mate with a funky old fart with gray hair and wrinkles. at least that's what i thought of 50 year old men when i was 14. and i'm sure many of those soon to be 30 year old grandmothers can remember that since it probably happened to them too.

i saw a segment on 60 minutes a couple of years ago about how a polygamist group weeded out the boys who were less than optimal and forced them out of the compounds with little or no information of how to survive in the world. there were several families who took these boys in and helped them adapt. if the men have several wives then many of the males will be left out so they get rid of them.

personally, i wouldn't mind having 3 husbands w/complimentary skills and talents: one bread winner, one house cleaner, one bed winner -- you know what i'm talking about. most of you guys can't do it all. lol!

i'll just take this opportunity to point out that the alleged husband here is convicted sex offender. you know, to fan the 'political' flames...

Julie Worth said:

We don't know from the few facts given, but in any case, the change in the law and the massive overreaction is entirely due to the religious hostility to the fundamentalist Mormon group, and not because of any real interest in protecting children.

Click to expand...

The FLDS church has been on law enforcement radar in Utah for years. They have an immense amount of information on them, and no, it's not about religious bigotry.

It's about a cult that causes serious harm to their own children, including sexual abuse. But it's difficult to get evidence that will stand up in court, because it's a closed society that's almost impossible to infiltrate, and the victims are so completely brainwashed that it's hard to get then to testify, even to their own abuse.

Julie Worth said:

All sorts of government misconduct can be hidden behind a cry of child abuse.

Click to expand...

So can child abuse.

Julie Worth said:

It’s all-purpose; the mob mentality of the public is easily aroused. But here the Texas authorities have engaged in an enormous invasion, disrupting hundreds of lives, and all based (apparently) on a telephone call and a dubious legal basis.

Click to expand...

I don't really see how you could read everything that's been posted and still make statements of this kind.

Julie Worth said:

Compare that to the Catholic church, which has had countless scandals involving abuse of minors, but never did swat teams converge like this.

Click to expand...

You know, they call the institution the "Catholic Church," but I don't think they're literally talking about a church--as in a building--thus, assailable by SWATs...

Julie Worth said:

All sorts of government misconduct can be hidden behind a cry of child abuse. It’s all-purpose; the mob mentality of the public is easily aroused. But here the Texas authorities have engaged in an enormous invasion, disrupting hundreds of lives, and all based (apparently) on a telephone call and a dubious legal basis. Compare that to the Catholic church, which has had countless scandals involving abuse of minors, but never did swat teams converge like this.

Click to expand...

The Catholic Church also has legal teams assigned to cooperate with authorities. In my church the Legal Counsel for misconduct prosecution is our pastor Monsignor Schwangar who is also a Vicar for the Archdiocese of Miami.
I think the principal difference is that the current complaints against the Catholic Church are decades old (and popular for the generous settlements which are stopping thank goodness) and the one in TX is current.

I know 4 Priests personally who have been prosecuted and 2 are serving jail. 1 other I believe did it and is pending. The 4th is one whom I trust deeply and I think it’s a crock that they are defaming a good man. But the church is going full-tilt after all allegations. Perhaps too late, but definitely not too little.

I hate the current sex laws but many of these cases must be investigated.

This case in TX is indefensible.

It's current? These allegations have been going on for many years. Here's a ton of them (though not just the Texas group). I just wonder why now, with such scant new evidence?

i'll just take this opportunity to point out that the alleged husband here is convicted sex offender. you know, to fan the 'political' flames...

Click to expand...

i don't believe that guy in prison is her husband. they haven't identified her or her husband. she could be one of the 401 children who is now afraid to identify herself or she could still be on the compound, possibly being sequestered by her husband or someone else.

Originally Posted by Julie Worth
Compare that to the Catholic church, which has had countless scandals involving abuse of minors, but never did swat teams converge like this.

Click to expand...

You know, they call the institution the "Catholic Church," but I don't think they're literally talking about a church--as in a building--thus, assailable by SWATs...

Click to expand...

true that for many, many years the catholic pedophile priests were not even questioned. they were seen as men of god and these acts were unthinkable. but now, they're dealt with on a case by case basis and even as an adult you can accuse a priest who molested you from many years ago. there is no statue of limitations on this kind of crime.
now, if the vatican was holding 400 children and there was this one phone call - it would call for a swat team.

http://www.mormonfundamentalism.com/NEWFILES/FLDSvsLDS.htm

Enlightening.

NikeeGoddess said:

i don't believe that guy in prison is her husband. they haven't identified her or her husband.

Click to expand...

yes they have. and i never suggested the husband was warren jeffs. he's this prince:

Department of Public Safety spokesman Tom Vinger said the person arrested was not Dale Barlow, the man listed in warrants related to the marriage of an underage girl.

Barlow's probation officer, Bill Loader, told The Salt Lake Tribune that he was in Arizona. Phone messages seeking comment from Loader and Barlow were not immediately returned Monday.

Barlow was sentenced to jail last year after pleading no contest to conspiracy to commit sexual conduct with a minor. He was ordered to register as a sex offender for three years while he is on probation.

Click to expand...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23993440/

Hi Julie and Brittanimae,

I think the root cause of your concern is the government's response to pretty flimsy evidence. In fact, you could probably make a case that the government fabricated the evidence.

So (IMO), your positions spring from the standpoint that the government should not be allowed to abuse their power.

I agree, however, not everything is black and white. There are shades of gray and these cults are dripping in gray.

Our country and entire legal system is based on the preface of sidding with the innocent. It is a perpetual game of paper rock scissor.

In this case, the innocent is not the religious group, but an innocent child within that group. THerefore, based on our 'protect the innocent' foundation, we are more than willing to use a legal loop hole to trample a few rights to ensure all is well.

It is absolutely vital that the government have the power to do these sorts of things. We should never be at the point where we allow a 'technicality' to trump common sense and basic justice.

It is very very likely the government had been building a case for years. If these people followed the letter of the law, then they should come out of this alright. However, the government would have never done this if they didn't know without a doubt that the law had been broken. Kinda like a Ricco case.

Now, it is true we do have other problems in this country. But when faced with a problem, the defense of "Well other people smoke crack and get away with it so why are you arresting me for pot?" isn't really a defense.

I do agree that we need to keep a reign on government and the police (that is what the media is suppose to help with) but at the same time, we should never EVER put a technicalty ahead of common sense.

Mel...

I think the crime of raping a 14 year old (who is recorded as giving birth at 15) as part of a systematic culture of forceably marrying female children to their blood relatives justifies a pretty severe level of action. That girl called for help, and it came. I support legal multiple marraige, but not against a person's will and not to a minor or immediate relative. I think conflating the two issues is as bad as conflating homosexuality and pedophilia.

brittanimae said:

And witch hunt? Yes. I see mobs of people jumping to ill-supported conclusions because they don't agree with this life-style.

Click to expand...

Which part of the lifestyle are you talking about?

Is it the segregating of a community from the general population?

Fifty year old men having sex with 15 year old girls? That's pretty gross in either direction btw.

brittanimae said:

And witch hunt? Yes. I see mobs of people jumping to ill-supported conclusions because they don't agree with this life-style. Would so many people be hopping on the band-wagon if we were talking about homosexuality? Well, actually, yes. About 30 years ago, they would have.

Click to expand...

Conclusions are not "ill-supported" just because you say they are. The issue is not about "lifesyle" just because you say it is.

Julie Worth said:

It's current? These allegations have been going on for many years. Here's a ton of them (though not just the Texas group). I just wonder why now, with such scant new evidence?

Click to expand...

I'm thinking that a baby is a pretty good exhibit A. Then there is exhibit D,N and A

Julie Worth said:

All sorts of government misconduct can be hidden behind a cry of child abuse. It’s all-purpose; the mob mentality of the public is easily aroused. But here the Texas authorities have engaged in an enormous invasion, disrupting hundreds of lives, and all based (apparently) on a telephone call and a dubious legal basis. Compare that to the Catholic church, which has had countless scandals involving abuse of minors, but never did swat teams converge like this.

Click to expand...

I can't think of any instance in which Catholic clergy had hundreds of children and women holed up in a compound without access to outside society. The pedophile priests operated individually, in the darkness of the confessional, among other places. They weren't interested in being cult leaders. They just wanted perverted sex. So, your point is . . . ahhhh . . . that it's okay to do these things in large groups, but not individually in secret?

caw

brittanimae said:

I'm just sayin--a raid is probably not the best method here. Seriously. Raids are for when there are stockpiles of nuclear weapons. We have other ways of dealing with this stuff.

Click to expand...

And those are . . . ?

caw

brittanimae said:

I'm just sayin--a raid is probably not the best method here. Seriously. Raids are for when there are stockpiles of nuclear weapons. We have other ways of dealing with this stuff.

Click to expand...

I am open minded. What other method do you propose to save a girl from constantly being raped and exploited?

I think the government showed great restraint by asking for cooperation. The raid was due to the lack of cooperation plus blatant disregard and disrespect for the law.

These rapes cannot be tolerated. Surely you don't agree that we should negotiate with rapists?

Surely?