Polygamist raid

Soccer Mom said:

The question of why the media doesn't cover inner-city violence is a valid one. They don't.
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Google this:
atlanta missing and murdered
It was all black children, and the authorities and most everyone else thought/presumed it was a white person doing it. Only about five years earlier I (as a teen) and my parents moved out of that area of Atlanta to move closer to my father's workplace (okay, "white flight" played a part as well...).

But that was about 28 years ago, the news media may have changed since then...

I think that the reason inner city violence isn't covered is that it is too common. Poor neighbourhoods despite being rife with all sorts of abuse, won't give the ratings of a subject that has 400 people, a cult religion, sex, pedophilia, and pioneer clothing as a lead in.

We are all writers/would be writers here, which scenario commands the most attention? It is the same with the viewing public - the quirky, the weird and the off beat will sell more papers than printing the same ordinary everyday violence despite it's importance to the people involved.

A sad reflection on human nature, but there it is.

I garontee that if somebody found a guarded compound somewhere in the U.S. with hundreds of nonCaucasian minors being forced into "plural marriages" and sex with older men, at the behest of a charismatic guru who is promising his followers salvation after the apocalypse, it would get covered bigtime by every news medium in the country.

Years ago I was a broadcast reporter. I'd have killed my favorite cat to get a story like that.

caw

I live in an area where there is a large aboriginal population. Many of these people have hard lives rife with poverty, drug abuse, alcohol and violence - which often culminates in death.

This is a common occurance. Is it a tragedy? Yes most certainly and especially for the families who have lost a loved one. However after seeing the tragedy in the news for the umteenth time, the viewing public scans the headlines and goes on to read Dear Abby. This is not because they are not caring people, it is because it is no longer something newsworthy to the majority of the people buying newspapers.

Now if it was a child who had died an untimely death there would by shock and sadness, but a drug death, an alcohol death, a tawdry violent death over something like drink or drugs or sex. Nope. After a cursory glance, the reality is, it is not news when it happens too often.

dgiharris said:

The having sex with teenage girls is an interesting bonus to all this madness, but it is not the primary driver. IMO

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I wonder. If you examine these various cults, large and small, the one thing they all have in common is a charismatic leader who is a sexual abuser, sometimes also rewarding his senior staff with access to young women.

I think the deep motivation is indeed sexual, and the religious component is the justification. I'm talking about the leaders here, not the followers.

blacbird said:

I garontee that if somebody found a guarded compound somewhere in the U.S. with hundreds of nonCaucasian minors being forced into "plural marriages" and sex with older men, at the behest of a charismatic guru who is promising his followers salvation after the apocalypse, it would get covered bigtime by every news medium in the country.

Years ago I was a broadcast reporter. I'd have killed my favorite cat to get a story like that.

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But it is true that many poor black and Hispanic women disappear, victims of sexual predators. There are I believe, at least as minority victims as there are white women, but we seldom hear about them.

When an attractive middle class white woman vanishes in the same fashion, it becomes national news -- almost to the point of obsession. Think of all the missing and murdered women stories you've seen on CNN in the last few years and how very few of them have been minorities.

And hey, leave that cat alone.

rugcat said:

But it is true that many poor black and Hispanic women disappear, victims of sexual predators. There are I believe, at least as minority victims as there are white women, but we seldom hear about them.

When an attractive middle class white woman vanishes in the same fashion, it becomes national news -- almost to the point of obsession. Think of all the missing and murdered women stories you've seen on CNN in the last few years and how very few of them have been minorities.

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You are correct. But this observation is more applicable to the Lacy/Stacey Peterson and Natalee Holloway kinds of stories than it is to the almost unique case that is the subject of this thread. There's no question that the major media furor (read this as a synonym for "Nancy Grace") concentrates on the pretty white women who go missing or are murdered, rather than members of minority ethnic groups.

rugcat said:

And hey, leave that cat alone.

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She pooooooped on my living room floor yesterday.

caw

kikazaru said:

I think that the reason inner city violence isn't covered is that it is too common. Poor neighbourhoods despite being rife with all sorts of abuse, won't give the ratings of a subject that has 400 people, a cult religion, sex, pedophilia, and pioneer clothing as a lead in.

We are all writers/would be writers here, which scenario commands the most attention? It is the same with the viewing public - the quirky, the weird and the off beat will sell more papers than printing the same ordinary everyday violence despite it's importance to the people involved.

A sad reflection on human nature, but there it is.

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Well, the inner city violent acts ARE individual, unrelated cases. It's much like covering 400 traffic fatalities (which often do get mentioned as each happens in traffic reports, but that's, more to show the "severity" of the accident than to report the death) versus covering a crashing airplane with 400 passengers. The airplane and its passengers will get 99.99 percent of the coverage, though only 50 percent of the people died in it.

blacbird said:

I garontee that if somebody found a guarded compound somewhere in the U.S. with hundreds of nonCaucasian minors being forced into "plural marriages" and sex with older men, at the behest of a charismatic guru who is promising his followers salvation after the apocalypse, it would get covered bigtime by every news medium in the country.

Years ago I was a broadcast reporter. I'd have killed my favorite cat to get a story like that.

caw

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you're correct, look at Jonestown, most of the people there were black.

blacbird said:

A whole bunch of new news is being released tonight about the FLDS group in Texas and elsewhere, none of it flattering.

Julie? You there, Julie? Hello, Julie?

Probably pretty late in Martinique.

caw

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Here it is a week later, and what is the news? The same breathless reporting based on this one mysterious caller who didn’t identify herself as a member of this group, and who didn’t know her husband’s name or age. That mixed in with startling new discoveries: Disturbed bed linen and a strand of hair that appears to be from a female head! Evidence of a polygamist living with a polygamist group! Oh my!

Polygamy is illegal in this country, period. Full stop. You can't just seclude yourselves and secede from our country's laws because you believe that God doesn't agree with it or whatever. If that's what you want to follow, you practice it in a place that allows you to. The FLDS has always made it clear that plural marriage is on of their strongest doctrines, and it's why they broke off from LDS in the first place.

Do I, personally, have a problem with the idea of legal consenting adults practicing polygamy? Not really, at least, in theory. But that doesn't mean they can just ignore the law when it suits them.

The only question here is whether or not the rape and marrying off of minors has occured-- I've read reports saying that they have found many teenagers on the compound who are not only pregnant but also caring for infants they've already had. And guess what? When your leader is serving time after being convicted of being an accomplice to rape, it tends to taint your credibility.

The "mysterious caller" did have a name-- they said her name was Sarah. Of course they aren't going to release every detail. She is a minor and a victim and has a right to be protected.

I am seriously confused as to what you're defending here. I mean, what do you seriously think was going on in this community?

traininvain said:

I am seriously confused as to what you're defending here. I mean, what do you seriously think was going on in this community?

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Polygamy. Everyone knew that from years ago. But that wasn't the justification for the raid.

And I'm not defending anything. I'm merely answering bird's post about this supposodly new information. All I've read is a rehashing of the original complaint, with a few lurid speculations thrown in. The real question is why all these attacks, this lynching mentality? That to me is disturbing. Especially here, in a community of writers.

The raid did not come totally out of the blue. The girl called twice-- once to report what had happened to the shelter, and again, crying and saying that everything was fine. When police responded to the calls, they were refused entrance to look for the individual girl. They had a duty to that girl to get in there by any means possible. And, due to the sect's history and the nature of the compound, there seemed to be strong evidence that this type of sexual abuse was not an isolated case.

brittanimae said:

Okay, I'm being a little inflammatory here. I think the reason we don't cover poor black children is because a fair number of people don't find them as cute, and they don't make the people with the money think "oh my! That could be my baby."

Note to mods--go ahead and delete me
*covers head in shame*

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Not just inflammatory, insulting. You're making a real generalization about a whole lot of people without really considering the facts. China's made a massive business out of exporting unwanted children, so apparently, SOME American people who aren't Chinese are able to look at a minority baby and say "how cute, that could be my child". The same goes with couples, majoritively white, BTW, who adopt kids from India, Africa, and South America, or even adopt minority children from right here in the United States. Hasn't the complaint always been that the 'authorities' are more willing to place minority children with white parents than to place white children with minority parents?

And that's not even taking into consideration all the people who give to charities to support children in non-white countries. When I lived with my parents and had a little extra cash to spare, I sent 24$ a month to help a little girl in Singapore pay for clothes and school supplies.

I agree with the people who have asserted that the reason inner city violence doesn't get as much attention is A) it's on an individual basis, one person or one home, and this is 400 people, and B) we DO hear about it, and we hear about it so much that it's old news to us. Also, it is C) sensational, with all the cult-ish trappings. The news reports what grabs peoples' attention, not necessarily what happens. If you want news that reports on every possible story regardless of how interested the public is, go to Japan.

I also disagree with the assessment that the lack of news coverage (BTW, I live in Columbus, and we most definately DO see it in the news whenever there's a report of domestic violence or a murder regardless of the color of the person's skin, as long as that someone deigned to call reporters they'll be there) means people don't care. You're disregarding the number of people who volunteer their time, talents, and even money for homeless shelters, youth centers, women's shelters, and those organizations (don't know if they have a blanket name) that train people for job interviews and get them good clothing so they can make a good impression and compete in a competitive market. You're forgetting the Big Brother/Big Sister program, the Salvation Army, and the vast number of churches who hold food drives and give free counseling or very inexpensive classes to youths, largely minorities, who are in need. When I was in youth group, we spent six weeks out of our summer working for a program similar to Habitat for Humanity, except instead of building homes, we were gutting and RE-building homes that had been deemed unsuitable for human habitation so that families could move into them once they were refitted. I didn't spend my summer breathing black dust and tar fumes on a hot roof, getting sunburned and wielding a sledgehammer nearly as big as I was, because I didn't care. I didn't do mission work in Kenya and New Orleans because I didn't care.

Don't confuse sensationalist media coverage with the attitudes of the people. The system is corrupt, and the American People as a whole are corrupt, but there are plenty of them who are trying to do the right thing.

Here it is a week later, and what is the news? The same breathless reporting based on this one mysterious caller who didn’t identify herself as a member of this group

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it's very likely that she will never identify herself. the author of that book Escape - a woman who did escape with her children years ago stated on CNN that it took her children 3 years AFTER leaving the compound before they could speak up about it. i believe she is also acting as a consultant for the investigation.

well at least they didn't go in bombing the place. remember this?
http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/MOVE-Phihladelphia-BombNYT14may85.htm
60 houses burned down to stop this "minority" cult
TANGENT ALERT: when i think of stuff like this and compare the relief efforts for the Katrina flood victims to the San Diego wild fire victims it is quite obvious and embarrassing how racism is still deeply rooted here. then...

You are correct. But this observation is more applicable to the Lacy/Stacey Peterson and Natalee Holloway kinds of stories than it is to the almost unique case that is the subject of this thread. There's no question that the major media furor (read this as a synonym for "Nancy Grace") concentrates on the pretty white women who go missing or are murdered, rather than members of minority ethnic groups.

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the amount of media coverage and "24 hour - around the clock" airtime given to the o.j. simpson trial -- it all makes my blood boil

okay - as you were

Julie Worth said:

Polygamy. Everyone knew that from years ago. But that wasn't the justification for the raid.

And I'm not defending anything. I'm merely answering bird's post about this supposedly new information. All I've read is a rehashing of the original complaint, with a few lurid speculations thrown in. The real question is why all these attacks, this lynching mentality? That to me is disturbing. Especially here, in a community of writers.

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We've told you. Repeatedly. But I don't really think you're listening.

When girls, minors, are raped and forced into slavery, we get upset. We do this because we have a conscience, a moral center, and enough empathy to care about someone else's daughter 1/10 as much as we care about our own.

We've shown repeatedly, either through a discussion of the process of evidence or through various news articles, that the police not only had plenty of reasons to go in but that they followed proper procedure as set into place since the Warren Jeffs incident, to prevent the kind of violent reaction common among cults whose compounds are raided. We have shown that the CDC was acting according to policy in removing the children until their homes could be investigated. We have shown that these people, despite your repeated insistence to the contrary, are not being 'held' nor are they under arrest, nor is their movement in any way restricted. We have repeatedly cited to you eyewitness accounts regarding the abuses that are rampant in other settlements of this particular cult. We have expounded upon the differences between this cult and the perfectly valid Mormon religion.

The problem isn't that the information isn't there. At this point, you're repeating yourself and we're repeating ourselves and I'm not sure what else remains to be said.

It isn't a lynching. You'll notice that only two people have been arrested pending very real charges, and they are not being denied lawyers or held without bail. In fact, Legal Counsel is very much a part of this entire fiasco, and has been since the beginning. No one is setting up a gallows. You're viewing the facts through glasses of a peculiar tint that I can't comprehend, taking issue with an issue that doesn't exist. I'm frankly astounded that someone exists who has less faith in our government than I do, but I have seen no evidence that the legal process has been circumvented here. I also have complete faith in the lawyers hired to defend those who have been arrested that they will provide the best possible defense to their clients in order to justify their ridiculous hourly rate, and those who are working on the possibility of a lawsuit against the authorities will do every possible bit of research to ensure that they have semi-solid grounds from which to demand damages. All the proper procedures are being used. There is no witch-hunt here. These people are not being persecuted for their beliefs. They're being persecuted for their actions, and their actions are reprehensible.

-- Sonne, in bafflement

Interesting new development:

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=433947

Looks like the Canadians are gonig to nip this in the bud ASAP before their own pack of polygamists get a chance to do something drastic.

Julie Worth said:

Here it is a week later, and what is the news? The same breathless reporting based on this one mysterious caller who didn’t identify herself as a member of this group, and who didn’t know her husband’s name or age. That mixed in with startling new discoveries: Disturbed bed linen and a strand of hair that appears to be from a female head! Evidence of a polygamist living with a polygamist group! Oh my!

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Oh my, it's ILLEGAL! Polygamy is a crime. Also, as reported yesterday by more than a few news sources, this was not solely based on the 16 year odl girl's word. They apparently had an informant scouting out the group for over a year.

The raids were totally justified, in fact they should have been done years ago.

Originally Posted by brittanimae
Okay, I'm being a little inflammatory here. I think the reason we don't cover poor black children is because a fair number of people don't find them as cute, and they don't make the people with the money think "oh my! That could be my baby."

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this reminds me of the flick, A Time to Kill where a white lawyer (McConaughey) defended a black man (Jackson) for murdering the white man who murdered his daughter. it was a losing case until the lawyer described the circumstances of mutilation surrounding the murder of the little black girl... and then told the all white southern jury to imagine she was a white little girl. he won the case.

cethklein said:

Oh my, it's ILLEGAL! Polygamy is a crime.

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Yes it is, a religious law. And enforcing it with high handed methods could well have negative consequences for fundamentalist Christians. Just as the Supreme Court struck down anti-sodomy laws, they might do the same with this.

In striking down a Texas law, Anthony Kennedy wrote for the 6-3 majority: "The petitioners are entitled to respect for their private lives. The state cannot demean their existence or control their destiny by making their private sexual conduct a crime."

Just a thought: it's not impossible that this Texas group set this up, making the phony call themselves, knowing that Texas law enforcement would overreact and generate a notorious case where they could get the law thrown out, making polygamy legal throughout the country. If you read the news article that cethklein linked in post 269, you'll see that Canadian prosecutors are a little smarter. They don't want to raise the issue and have the law struck down on religious freedom grounds.

I would like to point out that though the media ignores missing people from minority groups, it does not follow that the authorities also ignore them.

Perhaps they do, I'd prefer to see evidence of official neglect brought up, rather than just assuming the police ignore missing black people just because the media does. If they ignore it, thats a problem. The media can print whatever makes the money.

Julie,

You are really hung up on this caller not being identified. Remember, there are lots of different PLAUSIBLE logical explanations why this isn't the case.

1) The girl could have been killed
2) The girl could be fearful for her and her family's life
2a) Very possible that those in power have 'other' means of influence on her
2a-1) Leverage could include: other family members under their control, another group, etc.
3) The girl could be embarrassed
4) The girl could be afraid that when all is said and done, she will be placed back into the cult's care.

There are other reasons but I will stop there.
When you are the victim of something as horrific as this, it is COMPLETLEY REASONABLE to fear for your life. Just because the police come to the rescue doesn't mean the fear automatically goes away.

It is amazing how we feel that bringing somethign out into the open protects you. Many people forget that America has a short attention span and after your 15 minutes of fame are up and the cameras move on, guess what? You go back to your situation. In the case of this girl, that could very well be back into this cult or a similar cult. Would you like to go back to the cult labeled a 'snitch'?

Basically, there are a lot of logical reasons why the girl hasn't been ID. One very probable one being that she could have been caught and either killed or shipped off to another cult/group.

Mel...

dgiharris said:

Julie,

You are really hung up on this caller not being identified. Remember, there are lots of different PLAUSIBLE logical explanations why this isn't the case.

1) The girl could have been killed
2) The girl could be fearful for her and her family's life
2a) Very possible that those in power have 'other' means of influence on her
2a-1) Leverage could include: other family members under their control, another group, etc.
3) The girl could be embarrassed
4) The girl could be afraid that when all is said and done, she will be placed back into the cult's care.

There are other reasons but I will stop there.
When you are the victim of something as horrific as this, it is COMPLETLEY REASONABLE to fear for your life. Just because the police come to the rescue doesn't mean the fear automatically goes away.

It is amazing how we feel that bringing somethign out into the open protects you. Many people forget that America has a short attention span and after your 15 minutes of fame are up and the cameras move on, guess what? You go back to your situation. In the case of this girl, that could very well be back into this cult or a similar cult. Would you like to go back to the cult labeled a 'snitch'?

Basically, there are a lot of logical reasons why the girl hasn't been ID. One very probable one being that she could have been caught and either killed or shipped off to another cult/group.

Mel...

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Mel's quite right, you know. I was watching this show on Discovery the other day (it's called Most Evil), and they were discussing the Manson family. One of the younger members broke away, and was being asked to testify against Susan Adkins and a couple of others. In any event, one of the other Family members (ETA: Name of Ruth Ann Moorehouse)put her on a plane to Hawaii and gave Barbara a hamburger. Moorehouse told Barbara "What would happen if I'd put ten tabs of acid on it?"

Turns out that she had, in fact, spiked the hamburger with lethal amounts of acid. Barbara nearly died, and had her family threatened, all after Charlie and his other murderous minions were in jail, awaiting trial for the Tate/LaBianca murders.

These people often have a long reach, even when they are imprisioned. They have a lot - A LOT- of influence over other followers, if nothing else.

ETA: The girl in question was named Barbara Hoyt