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Agents charging Fees

MandyHubbard

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For e-books, yes, but not for print. And certainly not the royalty rate Steve quoted.

Right. Which is what I stated a few posts above.

I was just replying directly to the "I have never signed a contract on net"... becuase they may actually have done so as far as the ebooks were concerned.
 

MatthewDBrammer

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*raises hand*

Forgive me for being naive or possibly ignorant to boot, but it seems there is more controversy and conflict over agents, what they should do, and what they should charge, than is genuinely worth it. How many of you guys truly recommend having an agent?

I ask this because the majority of my experience in the entertainment business is in music. I'm a musician and an audio engineer/producer, and most of my close friends are involved in the music scene as well. The vast majority of us in recent times, in this scene, have gone completely away from the notion of managers, agents, labels (the music equivalent to publishers), etc. Everything has transitioned to nearly 100% DIY; indie has all but taken over the rock, metal, and jazz scenes.

Is having an agent or a publisher really worth it in literature still?

I also ask because I took the same approach to my first book (eBook, actually), [which I just released]....all DIY, I haven't gone agent shopping or anything, and I haven't the first clue of how to attract a major publisher (and don't even know that I would want to). There's a totally negative thought process regarding things like that in the music scene now.
 

cornflake

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*raises hand*

Forgive me for being naive or possibly ignorant to boot, but it seems there is more controversy and conflict over agents, what they should do, and what they should charge, than is genuinely worth it. How many of you guys truly recommend having an agent?

I ask this because the majority of my experience in the entertainment business is in music. I'm a musician and an audio engineer/producer, and most of my close friends are involved in the music scene as well. The vast majority of us in recent times, in this scene, have gone completely away from the notion of managers, agents, labels (the music equivalent to publishers), etc. Everything has transitioned to nearly 100% DIY; indie has all but taken over the rock, metal, and jazz scenes.

Is having an agent or a publisher really worth it in literature still?

I also ask because I took the same approach to my first book (eBook, actually), [which I just released]....all DIY, I haven't gone agent shopping or anything, and I haven't the first clue of how to attract a major publisher (and don't even know that I would want to). There's a totally negative thought process regarding things like that in the music scene now.

There are plenty of people on AW who decided, for a variety of reasons, to self-publish. Many of them would probably explain the value of agents. Just because someone chooses a particular path doesn't mean that person believes the others to be worthless.

There's a lot of value in agents if you're interested in trade publishing.

Same as in music - if you're interested in signing with a label, there's value in management. I'm not involved in the music business, but I know some people who are, who don't at all seem to have the outlook you do. Nor do most actors I've ever known, but it's all about making the decision right for you.

Agents have significant experience with navigating the business they're in, advising, negotiating, networking, contacting those potentially interested in your craft, etc.
 

mccardey

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How many of you guys truly recommend having an agent?

It's an individual choice. For me - yes, it works. But people who have skills that I don't have might well decide they don't really need one. It's not a moral imperative or anything. ;)
 

MatthewDBrammer

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Fair enough. I was just kind of taken aback by the emphasis on discussion of agents and full publishers here; I kinda figured with the movement to digital and social media and everything else that DIY was THE way to go in literature as well. Kinda like , "Oh, crap, do I need to run out and frantically search for an agent?" Lol. It was starting to seem, throughout my browsing of AW, that publishers and agents and such were somehow a prerequisite for being a writer, and that didn't make sense to me. Lol
 

mccardey

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Fair enough. I was just kind of taken aback by the emphasis on discussion of agents and full publishers here; I kinda figured with the movement to digital and social media and everything else that DIY was THE way to go in literature as well. Kinda like , "Oh, crap, do I need to run out and frantically search for an agent?" Lol. It was starting to seem, throughout my browsing of AW, that publishers and agents and such were somehow a prerequisite for being a writer, and that didn't make sense to me. Lol

There's a huge amount of info here on self-publishing as well. Check out the forums. We've got it covered...
 

waylander

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Seems to me there's a fundamental difference between music and literature at work here. Many kids seem to delight in trawling YouTube and other media searching for new bands/musicians that their friends don't know about. This can lead to the successes we've all heard about and is a viable way for a musician to be successful. This is far less of a phenomenon in literature. Self-published work really struggles to get noticed and most self-published authors sell only a few dozen copies.
 
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Cathy C

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Not every author is interested in marketing either. Even though I'm capable of reading and negotiating my own legal documents with printers and publishers, and I'm actually quite good at marketing, I don't really enjoy that part. I prefer the way that trade publishing works, where the publisher pays a moderate or large up-front amount of money to me so that I can afford to write the next book in reasonable comfort, and then takes on the work of selling the current book to the public. Since they have taken on the out-of-pocket to me, they have a vested interest in getting it back. :)
 

aruna

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I have absolutely NO interest in the business side of publishing. The "control" that SP authors are so keen to have? Don't care. I prefer to put everything in the hands of trustworthy experts and say "you do it". And that's exactly what I have done.
As for control: once your book is "out there" you have absolutely no control over who buys it, likes it (or not!), reviews it (or not). You can work your ass of in promotion, but in the end you can't control readers.

I have a small publisher and an agent works with him. She is taking my book, and the next one as well, to the London Book Fair next week to try and get some foreign sales. That's another thing you can't do on your own.
 

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Agents can get translation deals, foreign rights deals, large print deals, audio deals, and all sorts of other deals for the authors they represent.

They can also get writers contracts with publishers which will get their books into bookshops nationwide, which few self-publishers manage to do. And this makes a huge difference to sales.

It's hard to find a good literary agent. But if you do want to look for trade publication, having an agent is one of those essential things you have to do.
 

Ann_Mayburn

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I would have to throw in a cautionary here for those that focus on ebooks: In my most humble and limited experience in talking with romance authors that have agents, and having over the last three years watched what has happened with author friends and their agents, I've seen a glut of 'ebook' agents who really haven't done crap for their clients. Just remember, anyone can hang a shingle and call themselves an agent, but that doesn't mean they are going to actually do anything for you.

Ask yourself before you sign with anyone what you want out of this, what you expect your agent to do, and if your contract reflects that. Then also consider if you can do any/all of the things you want your agent to do on your own. Yes, trade is a whole different animal from eBook agents, but if you-for whatever reason- have your hat set on getting an agent make sure you're informed.

Personally, an agent wasn't for me so I can't tell you first hand what it is like to work with one, only from the outside looking in.
 

Filigree

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For me, an agent potentially saved me from giving away three decades' worth of work, to a publisher that is great in one genre (but would not want my whole story arc.) I might have been able to hammer out those details on my own, but I like outsourcing expertise. My agent more than earns her commission.

In the art field, I have art representatives who charge a high but industry-normal commission. In return they pay for their gallery space, online stores, prestigious trade show fees, and travel costs for seven to nine month presentation circuits (per year!) to universities, museums, and private collector contacts I could never reach on my own. I am one of several hundred artists they represent, but I benefit incredibly from all that shared experience.

I sell directly to some markets my reps and agents don't bother with. I cut my own deals with some art publishers. And I'm also getting ready to self-publish some novellas.

But for any complex deal within a large industry (the Big Five NY pubs, Hollywood, major players in the art world), I would get an agent right away.

ETA: Seconding what Ann cautioned about 'e-book' agents. You want an agent with proven skills, track records, a great reputation, and a solid agency (to back up and train newer agents). I have seen several 'e-book agents' over the last four years who were at best ineffectual cheerleaders for their clients.
 
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Old Hack

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I agree about approaching e-book agents with caution. I'm not sure that they are much use to writers, as there's little they can do that authors can't do for themselves; and why would writers limit their careers in this way? It doesn't make sense.

Good agents are worth having. Poor agents are not. Simple.
 

MatthewDBrammer

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Seems to me there's a fundamental difference between music and literature at work here. Many kids seem to delight in trawling YouTube and other media searching for new bands/musicians that their friends don't know about. This can lead to the successes we've all heard about and is a viable way for a musician to be successful. This far less of a phenomenon in literature. Self-published work really struggles to get noticed and most self-published authors sell only a few dozen copies.

That's why I joined this site; I knew there'd be differences in this industry and I'm definitely grateful for the input from all of you guys and everything I'm reading on here. :)



I have absolutely NO interest in the business side of publishing. The "control" that SP authors are so keen to have? Don't care. I prefer to put everything in the hands of trustworthy experts and say "you do it".

Oh, I can totally understand and respect that. I just prefer to be heavily involved in the business and marketing side of things mainly because a) I own and operate my own transportation company [as my "day job"], in which I'm in charge of virtually everything and carry all that responsibility, b) part of my college education was in music business, and c) I come from a very business-minded household, where my stepfather ended up working for a large business consulting firm that basically analyzes and saves failing businesses. I've been groomed, as it were, to be involved in that. Add that to the experiences I've had, and have seen, in the music industry, the other side of it was a bit surprising to me.
 

rick_scott79

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What's the problem with agents charging fees?

I would be glad to pay an agent a (reasonable, affordable) fee if he gets my book published!

If they charge then they aren't the real deal and make their money off slamming people in instead of usual biz.
I'd never pay to publish
 

JuBe

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If they charge then they aren't the real deal and make their money off slamming people in instead of usual biz.
I'd never pay to publish

I would say that all this is changing. What was true 10 or even 5 years ago or even 1 is no longer true. There is a lot more diversity in pathways to publication these days.

I'd also ask anyone who says they would not pay to publish (in other words, have not paid an agent, not paid a publicist, have not paid to SP), how many books they currently have published and how many sales...
 

Old Hack

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I would say that all this is changing. What was true 10 or even 5 years ago or even 1 is no longer true. There is a lot more diversity in pathways to publication these days.

I'd also ask anyone who says they would not pay to publish (in other words, have not paid an agent, not paid a publicist, have not paid to SP), how many books they currently have published and how many sales...

Things are definitely changing in publishing. But then, they always have done.

One thing that hasn't changed, however, is that agents who charge fees are to be avoided.
 

Becca C.

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I'd also ask anyone who says they would not pay to publish (in other words, have not paid an agent, not paid a publicist, have not paid to SP), how many books they currently have published and how many sales...

An agent charging a fee and an agent being paid their commission are very different things.

Never pay an agent to read, review, or represent your work.

An agent who takes you on and sells your book gets paid their 15% commission. They make money when you make money.

Big difference.
 

JuBe

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An agent charging a fee and an agent being paid their commission are very different things.

Never pay an agent to read, review, or represent your work.

An agent who takes you on and sells your book gets paid their 15% commission. They make money when you make money.

Big difference.

I am aware of that difference. (I've been in this business since the 1980s.) By point is simply that these old, hard and fast rules are changing. I think it behooves authors to be aware of that.
 

amergina

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I am aware of that difference. (I've been in this business since the 1980s.) By point is simply that these old, hard and fast rules are changing. I think it behooves authors to be aware of that.

Why do you think it's good thing (or an acceptable thing) for agents to charge writers fees?

I'm curious to the thought process behind this...other than "times are changing!"

Times are always changing in publishing. So? Why is an agent charging a fee (rather than taking a commission) acceptable? How do you see the changes in publishing making this practice okay?
 

Dave.C.Robinson

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I am aware of that difference. (I've been in this business since the 1980s.) By point is simply that these old, hard and fast rules are changing. I think it behooves authors to be aware of that.

Speaking purely for myself, I can see perfectly valid reasons for an author paying a publicist, especially when they are self-publishing, but none of those reasons justify paying an agent an upfront fee.
 

Debeucci

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Just curious. Have you been an agent since the 80s? An author? What part of the business have you been in, and what part of these changing times do you think makes agents charging fees an ethical business practice?

The agency model has always frowned upon pay to play, be it publishing, acting, modeling...etc. Almost all reputable industries that use agents for representation do not charge fees to their clients, only commission.
 

Filigree

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The fee game is deadly because it frontloads risk on the author. In theory - as well as proven practice from many documented scammers - it removes the agent's incentive for selling the project. Get enough fees in per month, and it won't matter if the agent can't sell the project. Any sales that do happen are gravy.

This is completely different than paying by-the-project for editing, cover design, and other self-publishing services.

Publishing IS changing. That doesn't suddenly make reading fees and other upfront pay to play schemes a better deal for authors.
 

gingerwoman

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I would say that all this is changing. What was true 10 or even 5 years ago or even 1 is no longer true. There is a lot more diversity in pathways to publication these days.

I'd also ask anyone who says they would not pay to publish (in other words, have not paid an agent, not paid a publicist, have not paid to SP), how many books they currently have published and how many sales...
I am aware of that difference. (I've been in this business since the 1980s.) By point is simply that these old, hard and fast rules are changing. I think it behooves authors to be aware of that.
I know a LOT of authors, and the only ones spending money to successfully make money, are those paying independent editors and artists, before they use the new FREE self publishing at places like Smashwords.

No one is making money by paying some scammy agent an upfront fee, or paying for a "package deal" with a scammy vanity press. The writers that do that, end up in situations like this. http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/directory/author-solutions

What's changed is that paying independent editors for quality editing, and independent artists for attractive covers, before uploading to the new free self publishing platforms like Smashwords etc...is working, for some people who are making good money self publishing that way. That's about all that's changed as far as I can see.

There are two very different business models, corporations use, one is bleeding money from writers as the vanity presses or fake agents do, the other is making money selling books.

Smashwords and KDP can work for authors, because they make money when books sell, rather than asking authors for money. They take a percentage of sales, the way agents and trade publishes do, and give the author the rest. Consequently the author is not scammed.



edited to add- I admit that I don't know much of anything about publicists, or what they can do. But I think you'd have to already be pretty wealthy to hire one, and if you didn't have a project that had considerable market appeal in itself then I doubt much could be done for you at any price. The odds of ending up out of pocket seem pretty high to me.
 
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