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Agents charging Fees

Steven Hutson

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You should never pay up front. Any 'costs' incurred, such as photocopying, postage etc, will come out at the point the agent gets their cut. not before.

Nope.

When you hire an agent, you're renting his experience, knowledge, and Rolodex. He works for free, until he sells your book, which could take a year or more, or possibly never sell at all.

If an agent spends his own money on you, that changes the nature of the relationship. (Or would you rather he NOT send off your manuscript to an editor who asks for it?)
 

cornflake

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Nope.

When you hire an agent, you're renting his experience, knowledge, and Rolodex. He works for free, until he sells your book, which could take a year or more, or possibly never sell at all.

If an agent spends his own money on you, that changes the nature of the relationship. (Or would you rather he NOT send off your manuscript to an editor who asks for it?)

I'm confused - what're you implying?

How does that change the relationship? That is the relationship. The agent/agency spends time and money shopping books, talking to and advising authors, and is rewarded by a cut if and when the books sell.
 

Cathy C

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Nope.

When you hire an agent, you're renting his experience, knowledge, and Rolodex. He works for free, until he sells your book, which could take a year or more, or possibly never sell at all.

If an agent spends his own money on you, that changes the nature of the relationship. (Or would you rather he NOT send off your manuscript to an editor who asks for it?)

Sorry, but I strongly disagree. The only thing I've ever paid on top of commission to my agent is postage/overnight fees to send books overseas for translation rights offers. Those fees are accumulated and deducted the next time I get an on pub or D&A check.

Everything else is the cost of doing business for the agent. Salaries, equipment leases, photocopies, faxes, ISPs, phones, paper, pens, etc. None of that is (or should be) the responsibility of the author.
 

LKSebastian

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I just signed a contract with an agency and there was a section of the contract where it discussed extra fees on top of commission for expenses incurred. My contract specified that any costs would come out of royalties, not be paid up front. There was also a cap put on the amount they could cite.

Different agencies have different terms, though. But I would expenses should never be paid by the author up front.
 

Steven Hutson

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Anyone who objects to investing in their own career, can turn down those offers from agents. But most agents will expect to be reimbursed for expenses they pay on your behalf. It's nice to imagine that those costs will be deducted from your royalties, but what if your book never sells? Even the best and most experienced agents take on risky projects that never pay off.
 

cornflake

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Anyone who objects to investing in their own career, can turn down those offers from agents. But most agents will expect to be reimbursed for expenses they pay on your behalf.

Bull. Real agents don't go after clients for the cost of sending stuff out before anything has ever sold, any more than real estate agents go after clients for the cost of shopping a property or taking them around to see properties. That's the cost of doing business.

A real estate agent can spend a ton of time and money taking photos, creating listings, hosting open houses, putting out food, balloons, brochures, ads, etc., looking for properties, sending stuff to clients, copying listing sheets and taking clients around to see dozens of places. Those agents all know that those clients may back out, the places may never sell, the clients may never buy - that's the price of doing business. No agent has to take a listing; they bet they can sell it and try to, to make their commission.

A literary agent does the same thing - choose what to rep on the basis of betting he or she can sell it and make money. If it doesn't sell, well, then that's time and money spent for no return, which is how it goes.
 

Deleted member 42

Anyone who objects to investing in their own career, can turn down those offers from agents. But most agents will expect to be reimbursed for expenses they pay on your behalf.

No, in fact they won't. It's non-standard. There used to be a standard clause about postage/Fed Ex fees for sending hardcopy overseas, but it tended to have a fixed limit and required approval in advance—and it came out of the advance or the next royalty check. Now, even that clause isn't standard because so much of the transmission of mss. is digital.

Normal expenses are the agent's cost of doing business, and the agent absorbs the cost until the book receives an advance or the next royalty payment.
 

Stacia Kane

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1- Really? I've negotiated dozens of contracts, and I have never seen such a clause. It actually works in the pub's favor, for the author to sell books on his own, because the author then assumes the cost and effort of marketing and individual distribution.

I've never seen a contract without such a clause; they are indeed standard. Occasionally exceptions are made, like books for speaking engagements or signing where a bookstore isn't sponsoring the event or isn't available to partner for it, but...I sign the right to sell my book over to my publishers. If I sell it myself that's actually NOT good for them; who's to say I won't essentially use them as a cheap printer, and undersell them from my website or something like that? I wouldn't personally do such a thing, but that doesn't mean others won't.

There is no "cost of marketing" for individual books, at least not that I'm aware of. Nor is there usually a cost for "individual distribution." Marketing and distribution both generally involve bulk, not lone copies. Marketing and distribution for books tend to involve getting those books into stores, which is something authors can't really do on a widespread basis, and again doesn't involve individual costs.

2- If you're not willing to participate in the marketing of your own book, then you chose the wrong business.

I don't participate in the marketing of my books at all, and I've been doing just fine in this business for about seven years now.

I do promotion, sure. But not marketing.

You should never pay up front. Any 'costs' incurred, such as photocopying, postage etc, will come out at the point the agent gets their cut. not before.

Nope.

When you hire an agent, you're renting his experience, knowledge, and Rolodex. He works for free, until he sells your book, which could take a year or more, or possibly never sell at all.

Sorry, but how is that different from what Shaldna said? (Also, while it could indeed take a year or more, it usually doesn't.)


If an agent spends his own money on you, that changes the nature of the relationship. (Or would you rather he NOT send off your manuscript to an editor who asks for it?)

How does it change the nature of the relationship? It's my agent's job to submit to editors and handle my contracts and royalty statements etc. For him to charge me for things like his email (I guess that's what you mean when you say the agent would not send off a requested ms without being specifically paid to do so?) would be no different, really, from me charging my publishers for my internet or updated software or whatever else. That's my expense, not theirs; it's a cost of doing business.

FWIW, when I meet up with my agent he buys the drinks and food, too. Cost of doing business. I don't get charged for four vodka tonics at the back end; he's spent his own money on me, and it changes our relationship not one whit. (It doesn't change our relationship when I send him a box of Godiva at Christmas, either.)


Anyone who objects to investing in their own career, can turn down those offers from agents. But most agents will expect to be reimbursed for expenses they pay on your behalf. It's nice to imagine that those costs will be deducted from your royalties, but what if your book never sells? Even the best and most experienced agents take on risky projects that never pay off.

I have never heard of a writer whose book failed to sell who then got a bill for expenses from their agent, or rather, I haven't heard of anything like that from a legitimate agent. It may have happened, but I haven't heard of it. Sure, agents take on projects they fail to sell, but if they're any good they don't have too many of those.

That's why part of being a good agent is having the knowledge and experience necessary to select and represent only those books that have a real shot at publication. If they know they'll get paid for their expenses either way, the incentive to be selective is reduced (that's not the only reason they're selective, of course, but it's there just the same).

Being an agent isn't a risk-free business. Nothing in publishing is. That's how it goes.
 

Deleted member 42

2- If you're not willing to participate in the marketing of your own book, then you chose the wrong business.

I think you've confused marketing (an activity in which the sales department of a publisher engages) with promotion/public relations.

Publishers do not want amateurs engaged in marketing.

The most I've ever been asked to do in the way of PR/promotions is to attend conferences and speak (at my publisher's arranging and expense, or in return for an honorarium) and to let publishers know if I spotted a review.
 

Mr Flibble

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I have never heard of a writer whose book failed to sell who then got a bill for expenses from their agent, or rather, I haven't heard of anything like that from a legitimate agent.

Word

My agent has taken exactly what he said - a set % of what he has earned me (I would also question most postage/photocopying etc expenditure in these internet days)

IF an agent wants to charge for that (and one or two good agents used to, but are vanishingly rare these days of email) you need to get stuff stated up front

as for selling on copies -- yeah, I've seen that with small pubs, which is fair enough -- at a small pub a writer will need to promo more, but it shouldn't be your only income...(this is one way vanities get you. A small press will ask you to do stuff but your major sales should not be from you)
 

CAWriter

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No, in fact they won't. It's non-standard. There used to be a standard clause about postage/Fed Ex fees for sending hardcopy overseas, but it tended to have a fixed limit and required approval in advance—and it came out of the advance or the next royalty check. Now, even that clause isn't standard because so much of the transmission of mss. is digital.

Normal expenses are the agent's cost of doing business, and the agent absorbs the cost until the book receives an advance or the next royalty payment.

Honestly, it's not as non-standard as you might believe.I turned down an agent (now large, successful agency) who had a clause that included being reimbursed for phone calls (back when everyone paid for long distance), postage, printing and travel (to conferences, trade shows, etc). Clients were billed quarterly. I can't remember if those expense would be reimbursed upon advance/royalty payments; I saw that (absolutely non-negotiable) clause and turned down the representation. I understand the agent no longer has that policy, but they did for a number of years.

There are others as well, and I've seen where agents reserve the right to be reimbursed for Fedex, printing, etc, but they don't necessary put it into practice regularly.
 

Deleted member 42

Honestly, it's not as non-standard as you might believe.I turned down an agent (now large, successful agency) who had a clause that included being reimbursed for phone calls (back when everyone paid for long distance), postage, printing and travel (to conferences, trade shows, etc). Clients were billed quarterly. I can't remember if those expense would be reimbursed upon advance/royalty payments; I saw that (absolutely non-negotiable) clause and turned down the representation. I understand the agent no longer has that policy, but they did for a number of years.

You just agreed with me; re-read the post you quoted. That wasn't unusual twenty years ago; it is unusual now.

Now, even then, travel reimbursement, especially to conferences, would have raised eyebrows. That's a cost of doing business. It should not be passed on to clients.
 

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It's nice to imagine that those costs will be deducted from your royalties, but what if your book never sells?

They eat those expenses. Agents have to speculate in order to accumulate.

1- Really? I've negotiated dozens of contracts, and I have never seen such a clause. It actually works in the pub's favor, for the author to sell books on his own, because the author then assumes the cost and effort of marketing and individual distribution.

Just to be clear, what size publishers are you talking about here?
 

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The agency contract I signed recently clearly states that they pay for the day-to-day cost of business out of their 15%.
 

Filigree

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So does my literary agent. So do my art publishing agents in a completely different field. They all earn their commission off royalties, not up front.

As for the marketing/promotion confusion, it is true that lots of authors do self-promotion. Unless they are really high up on the food chain, their efforts are not going to sell enough to match the bulk campaigns of their publishers. And if they are outselling their publishers, maybe that should be a sign to consider a more effective publisher.
 

Steven Hutson

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Just to be clear, what size publishers are you talking about here?

I've worked with Mom-and-Pop operations, and I have one book with Dutton, plus a few mid-size pubs in-between. All of them allow their authors to buy at a steep discount, anywhere from 45 to 60% off cover.

A novel with a cover price of $15 will typically wholesale at 40% off cover, or about $9. Say the royalty is 10% of net (common these days), the author earns about 90c per book.

If the same author obtains books with his author discount, he will pay maybe $7.50 each. The publisher might or might not require the author to pay for shipping, but even if so, He could still earn several times the 90c royalty when he sells said books.

Many authors use their book as a part of a broader business. If you travel the country giving speeches because you're the world's foremost authority on building better mousetraps, then you bring the books along and sell them in the back of the room. At that point it's not really a book tour, it's a regular part of your business.
 

Steven Hutson

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Now, even then, travel reimbursement, especially to conferences, would have raised eyebrows.

Reimbursement for travel? I've never heard of an agent attending a conference for the benefit of an individual client.
 

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They would. But as most of the contracts that I've seen prohibit authors from buying their own books from their publishers and then selling them on, and as it's much harder and more time-consuming for writers to sell their own books than it is for their publishers to do so, it's not a good plan.

1- Really? I've negotiated dozens of contracts, and I have never seen such a clause.

I've worked for several rather good publishers (HarperCollins, Ebury Press, Chronicle Books, and plenty more), and all of the contracts I issued contained such a clause: I wouldn't have issued one without it. I've had a few books of my own published (over thirty), and all of my contracts contained such a clause.

I've worked with Mom-and-Pop operations, and I have one book with Dutton, plus a few mid-size pubs in-between. All of them allow their authors to buy at a steep discount, anywhere from 45 to 60% off cover.

I agree that most publishers allow their authors to buy their own books at a discount. The issue here is that publishers don't then want their authors to sell the books on.

Steven, I can see from some of your posts elsewhere at AW that you have a view of publishing which differs strongly from my own. I've already named a few of the publishers I've worked for: there have been several more over the thirty years or so that I've worked in the business. I say this not to try to pull rank on you, but to show that I do have some experience in this field.

I've read elsewhere that you've published a couple of books with Tate Publishing. Tate is a notorious vanity press, and its websites and blogs are full of the sort of misinformation that you've been repeating here. I think you could learn a lot from AbsoluteWrite, if you'd give us a chance and listen to what we have to say.
 

MandyHubbard

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Reimbursement for travel? I've never heard of an agent attending a conference for the benefit of an individual client.

I've seen this several times. I was on the faculty at a local conference in which Garth Stein- -Author of THE ART OF RACING IN THE RAIN (who is also local) was the keynote. His agent flew in from NYC and was part of the faculty as well. Most conferences fly in faculty anyway, so they may as well ask the agents who rep the key note authors, as often that provides opportunities for specific sessions that pair the author and agent. Many agents are happy to do this.

A novel with a cover price of $15 will typically wholesale at 40% off cover, or about $9. Say the royalty is 10% of net (common these days), the author earns about 90c per book.

If the same author obtains books with his author discount, he will pay maybe $7.50 each. The publisher might or might not require the author to pay for shipping, but even if so, He could still earn several times the 90c royalty when he sells said books.

Many authors use their book as a part of a broader business.

If you've only sold ONE book to a big publisher, perhaps you should preface your posts with, "In my experiences with small and mid-sized publishers."

The royalty rate you cite is not at all the industry norm for big publishers, and the second bit is unequivocally false, in fact would be a breach of contract for most authors.

Edited to add: And to be clear, I'm talking about in my experiences with contracts I've done with Disney-Hyperion, Penguin, Macmillan (2 imprints), bloomsbury, Harper Collins (2 imprints), and Simon & Schuster (3 different imprints). The ONLY contract I have that allows resale is with a smaller independent publisher.
 
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FluffBunny

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I've worked with Mom-and-Pop operations, and I have one book with Dutton, plus a few mid-size pubs in-between. All of them allow their authors to buy at a steep discount, anywhere from 45 to 60% off cover.

Wasn't the Dutton publication from their Guilt Edged Mysteries line? A digital-only line? The cost of the book, from either Amazon or direct from Dutton/Penguin, is $3.99. There was a "steep discount" offered to the author on that? And how does an author re-sell digital books? *seriously confused*

ETA: I just rechecked Dutton's GEM page to be sure and, in spite of this in their FAQ:

If your eBook catches on in a major way there is money to be made (and we might even publish a physical book).

none of the books in that line have reached that magical threshold. So...I remain confuzzled about how "steep discounts" apply to e-books.

As for agents getting paid in advance: I don't get paid in advance. My employers have always expected I'll do the work and then get paid. The fact that it cost me money for gas, car maintenance, insurance, etc. matters not a whit. I work, I get paid and thereby reimbursed for the expenses I accrued while waiting for my paycheck. It should work the same way for an agent.
 
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Deleted member 42

I have never signed a contract on "net." I want list or cover price as a base.

See Writer Beware on Net Profit Royalty Clauses.

Moreover, not only do my contracts forbid me to re-sell books I purchase at author discount, it strikes me as unethical to do that at a signing or a conference; that's how the hosting vendor/retailer makes a profit.

Tate and publishers who depend on authors buying their books tend to encourage authors to buy their own books and sell them. That's not my job; that's my publishers' job.

I write books; my publishers make and sell them.

My publishers write checks; I sign them on the back (or lately, accept direct deposit).
 
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MandyHubbard

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I have never signed a contract on "net." I want list or cover price as a base.

Moreover, not only do my contracts forbid me to re-sell books I purchase at author discount, it strikes me as unethical to do that at a signing or a conference; that's how the hosting vendor/retailer makes a profit.

These days almost every contract from a large pub is going to base ebook royalties on net. It's the current standard.

Payment on net is definitely a slippery slope, but I do still see it from some reputable indies. If you can get higher royalty rates and escalation clauses, it's not a guaranteed bad deal, it's just hard to monitor.
 

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I'm pretty new to having an agent. I mean, within the last few weeks new. But when I spoke with my agent on the phone, one of the first things she said was, "I don't get paid until you do," and "I will never ask you for money." And her contract reflected that.