Marketing Questions for Children's Writers

dolores haze · Mar 4, 2008

I'm currently querying on a picture book. I have my long list of agents, and in case no-one bites, I have a shorter list of publishers who will look at unagented material.

So I've been doing a lot of research, and was surprised at the number of agents and publishers who want to see a marketing plan along with the submission.

Have you, as children's writers, given much thought to your marketing plan? Do you think this should be the writer's job? Do you have any cool marketing ideas you would be willing to share? How much time would you be willing to spend on marketing your book?

All comments welcome!

Dreamer3702 · Mar 4, 2008

When my book comes out (if things ever get settled), my agent plans on having me do the local scene - go to various schools in the tri state area. At least, that's the plan, but this is also a supplement to whatever the publisher wants me to do.

So, ummm... maybe work in something about doing the grass roots thing. Speak at different schools in your area (the bigger the radius the better.) Also, Mom and Pop book stores is a good place too.

dolores haze · Mar 4, 2008

When my book comes out (if things ever get settled), my agent plans on having me do the local scene - go to various schools in the tri state area. At least, that's the plan, but this is also a supplement to whatever the publisher wants me to do.

I'd be more than happy to go to all the local schools (and libraries). But how far would I be willing to travel? And do you know if the publisher would pay travel expenses, or is it all out of your own pocket?

So, ummm... maybe work in something about doing the grass roots thing. Speak at different schools in your area (the bigger the radius the better.) Also, Mom and Pop book stores is a good place too

How far would you be willing to travel? Are mom and pop stores better for marketing than chain stores?

Dreamer3702 · Mar 4, 2008

dolores haze said:
I'd be more than happy to go to all the local schools (and libraries). But how far would I be willing to travel? And do you know if the publisher would pay travel expenses, or is it all out of your own pocket?

How far would you be willing to travel? Are mom and pop stores better for marketing than chain stores?

I think the publisher paying for travel expenses depends on the publisher. However, you have to keep track of all your (travel) expenses. They are tax deductable.

If the publisher is paying, I'll go anywhere. If I'm paying, it has to be within driving distance. I consider driving distance 12hrs or less to get there.

I don't know if mom and pop stores are better or not, but I do think you might have a better chance of scheduling a signing. I honestly don't know how one goes about scheduling a signing at a chain store. That's why I'm happy I have an agent. If you want to find out more, cruise some agent blogs or ask this question in the "ask an agent" thread.

brittanimae · Mar 4, 2008

This is so interesting! When I was querying a pb a couple of months ago, I was tempted to submit some publicity ideas to an agent along with a manuscript, but I chickened out and didn't do it. My ms was eventually rejected. Now I wish I'd followed through with it!

I think being ready and willing to contact librarians and bookstores and schedule things would be great. You could come up with a flannel board presentation to present with your readings and maybe some kind of hand-out or bookmark or something for kids to take home. With the softness of the picture book market and the popularity of library and bookstore "story times" these would be great--almost essential--ways to connect with the consumer.

dolores haze · Mar 4, 2008

However, you have to keep track of all your (travel) expenses. They are tax deductable.

Good point!

I don't know if mom and pop stores are better or not, but I do think you might have a better chance of scheduling a signing. I honestly don't know how one goes about scheduling a signing at a chain store. That's why I'm happy I have an agent.

So it's the agent's job to arrange signings?

brittanimae said:
I think being ready and willing to contact librarians and bookstores and schedule things would be great. You could come up with a flannel board presentation to present with your readings and maybe some kind of hand-out or bookmark or something for kids to take home. With the softness of the picture book market and the popularity of library and bookstore "story times" these would be great--almost essential--ways to connect with the consumer.

Nice ideas, Brittanimae!

I think a website is considered a necessity, also? Or not so much?

Hillary · Mar 4, 2008

Basically, it's hard as hell to sell a picture book if you are an unknown author. There is a HUGE competition (always has been in the genre) and a lot of brilliant things coming out right now. So, yeah, I suppose if you had some major niche or a hook that was brilliant, an agent or publisher would want to know so they were aware of that marketing ploy they could use. But other than that? Hrm...

I asked my mother about this and she said "I'd never include a marketing plan. In fact, I'd ignore it if someone asked for one. It's not my job to market a book and I'd be terrible at it anyway." I think she's right. I find it hard to believe a GOOD publisher would be asking because they're hurting for ideas. They have a lot of really talented people on payroll for that for a reason. So what is it they are really saying? I'm not sure. Likely they just want to know if there is some really big and easy marketing tool they wouldn't see right off the bat that would make a new author marketable. It's not like they're wondering if you're going to help promote your book. I can't think of many writers who would get a children's book published and then wouldn't be up to do the promotional campaigns the publisher outlined, can you? Nah...

Yes, a little self-promotion is a good thing, but NO amount of self-marketing is going to get the book the kind of publicity it needs like a publisher's marketing plan. I've watched the difference it can make firsthand. It's astounding.

Also, if you're published and doing signings, your publisher should be paying. (My mom has spoken and traveled for at least three different publishers, and each and every one paid ALL travel expenses, so push for that!) If you're visiting schools, the school district should be paying. If you want to do some local stuff on your own, that's cool, but don't get shafted. Most schools will pay a decent fee for published authors to come in and speak.

brittanimae · Mar 4, 2008

Hillary knows better than I do, I'm sure.

After three agent queries and one editor submission, I gave up on the pbs I've done and started on some middle-grade stuff. I still want to sell the pbs eventually, but they're not easy to break in with and I don't want to spend all my time querying them when I could be writing!

Hillary · Mar 4, 2008

brittanimae said:
Hillary knows better than I do, I'm sure.

After three agent queries and one editor submission, I gave up on the pbs I've done and started on some middle-grade stuff. I still want to sell the pbs eventually, but they're not easy to break in with and I don't want to spend all my time querying them when I could be writing!

Definitely not the easiest way to break in! But don't give up on your picture books. Once you're published in a different level of children's lit, it's MUCH easier to just jump up and down in the age ranges. And, sometimes, an agent will ask you to do it. I think it was my mother's second picture book that was simply an idea. She and her agent toyed with it from picture book age to YA. No kidding. Eventually, they settled on picture book, and off she went. It's with the illustrator now.

dolores haze · Mar 4, 2008

Basically, it's hard as hell to sell a picture book if you are an unknown author.

And don't I know it!

I asked my mother about this and she said "I'd never include a marketing plan. In fact, I'd ignore it if someone asked for one. It's not my job to market a book and I'd be terrible at it anyway." I think she's right.

This was my first reaction to seeing agents/publishers wanting to see a marketing plan. Thanks for sharing your mom's comments.

Also, if you're published and doing signings, your publisher should be paying. (My mom has spoken and traveled for at least three different publishers, and each and every one paid ALL travel expenses, so push for that!) If you're visiting schools, the school district should be paying. If you want to do some local stuff on your own, that's cool, but don't get shafted. Most schools will pay a decent fee for published authors to come in and speak.

Good to know! Does your mom have a website?

Thanks, Hillary!

Hillary · Mar 4, 2008

dolores haze said:
Good to know! Does your mom have a website?

Not yet, and it's totally my fault because it's my job to get it going. One blogger or reviewer (I can't recall which) even commented that she was "sadly without a website." But I've found the guy I want to do it, I've lined up a quote, and now I just need to have them talk, get all the materials together, find out what the copyright issues will be with using her illustrators' work on the site, get a prelim from the website designer guy, approve it, set up a fake blog for one of her characters to blog, decide on a couple contests to run, figure out how on earth it's all gonna work with Flat Stanley, make an appearances schedule and way to book her after I make sure she's upped her appearance fee, and...

Oh, God, I think my head just exploded.

I need some serious help with the website thing, actually. I may cry. How did this thread make me cry? Seriously?

dolores haze · Mar 4, 2008

Not yet, and it's totally my fault because it's my job to get it going. One blogger or reviewer (I can't recall which) even commented that she was "sadly without a website." But I've found the guy I want to do it, I've lined up a quote, and now I just need to have them talk, get all the materials together, find out what the copyright issues will be with using her illustrators' work on the site, get a prelim from the website designer guy, approve it, set up a fake blog for one of her characters to blog, decide on a couple contests to run, figure out how on earth it's all gonna work with Flat Stanley, make an appearances schedule and way to book her after I make sure she's upped her appearance fee, and...

That's all???
*ducks*

Sorry, Hillary, didn't mean to make ye cry!
*hands Hills a big ass tissue*

MsJudy · Mar 4, 2008

Are you an SCBWI member? I joined recently, and most of the publications they sent me are about picture book publishing. Lots of what looks like good advice, plus chat lists. My local one has a lot of picture book writers who share tips on school and bookstore visits, among other things.

Hillary · Mar 4, 2008

Ah, yes, SCBWI. My mother swears by them. (I maintain this has something to do with the fact that we live in chilly Cape Cod and they fly her to warm locations like Los Angeles for conferences.) But she maintains she liked them before they liked her back.

But really... Join a chapter if you haven't already. They really are an invaluable resource.

dolores haze · Mar 4, 2008

JudScotKev said:
Are you an SCBWI member? I joined recently, and most of the publications they sent me are about picture book publishing. Lots of what looks like good advice, plus chat lists. My local one has a lot of picture book writers who share tips on school and bookstore visits, among other things.

Hillary said:
Ah, yes, SCBWI. My mother swears by them. (I maintain this has something to do with the fact that we live in chilly Cape Cod and they fly her to warm locations like Los Angeles for conferences.) But she maintains she liked them before they liked her back.

But really... Join a chapter if you haven't already. They really are an invaluable resource.

I'll check them out. Thanks, guys.

myscribe · Mar 5, 2008

I think they may be asking for it to see a willingness to cooperate with marketing.

What you need to show is knowledge of the market/business and a willingness to promote your book. Whether it’s in a plan or in your query – that’s up to you (although it seems a bit premature for an actual plan).

SCBWI is a great resource nationally - be sure to check out your local chapters too as they offer valuable networking and educational opportunities

cwgranny · Mar 5, 2008

School visits can build into a much more lucrative part of writing than the actual books. I know a number of children's writers who make more on their school visits than on their books. So once you're published, it's worthwhile to really research school visits...there is a ton of great info on how to book them, how to do them, and how much to charge.

Now, with only one book under your belt, you're likely to find publishers a little less enthusiastic about paying your expenses for book signings [they don't generate that much for the publisher and publishers...well, they can be cheap sometimes -- even the big guys, maybe especially the big guys] though they MAY line some up for you. And you don't have to schlepp your own books, the bookstore will buy from the publisher and handle that for you.

Again, there is a wealth of information on the web about self-promotional efforts including web sites, blog tours, book signings, book tours (Brian Lies bats mobile tour is a really great example of a hugely successful author-side promotional effort), et al. Focus on efforts by authors connected to real publishers and you'll get a better feel for what to expect.

But, really, asking for a marketing plan for a picture book author is a little weird...maybe for nonfiction picture books? But even then, if the publisher needs YOUR help to market...they may not be somewhere you wanna go.

scope · Apr 2, 2008

Most publishers, and therefore agents, expect writers to have a sound and expansive program to help them market a book. A writer who doesn't have one is at a severe liability. Therefore, it behooves all writers, other than the "celebrities" to have same before they even send out a proposal. In fact, without being egotistical, and while being completely honest, I believe all writers should mention some portion of their marketing plan in the proposal. Personally, I wouldn't use it in a query letter.

The marketing which a writer can and must do is of course over and above what publishers will hopefully do on their own. The insistence that writers have a sound plan ready to implement is relatively new - maybe over the past 10 to 15 years. Before that, publishers reveled when writers could help to market books, but really never planned on it.

cwgranny · Apr 3, 2008

Just a note. There is a difference between promoting your book and marketing your book. Marketing SHOULD be done by the publisher. You don't sell books. You get attention by doing school visits, blog "tours" and the like -- but the actual "marketing" -- namely getting the books in the venues that can sell them, is done by the publisher.

So a publisher should not be asking how you will market the book or even how you suggest THEY market the book (with the possibility of a nonfiction book -- some publishers do look for suggestions for possible markets they haven't considered. I know some nonfiction picture books make more sales in museum gift shops than in bookstores.) A publisher who wants you to market the book isn't doing a big honkin' part of their job.

Now, a publisher who wants to know if you're going to be pro-active in getting yourself out there to meet potential readers...that's not quite so weird.

dolores haze · Apr 3, 2008

cwgranny said:
Just a note. There is a difference between promoting your book and marketing your book. Marketing SHOULD be done by the publisher. You don't sell books. You get attention by doing school visits, blog "tours" and the like -- but the actual "marketing" -- namely getting the books in the venues that can sell them, is done by the publisher.

Thanks - this clears up a lot for me. I'm more than willing to promote; not willing to market.

Can anyone recommend any children's authors websites that they think are outstanding?

Toothpaste · Apr 3, 2008

I enjoy write4kids.com, there are some nice articles. And of course Verlakay.com that has again some good articles, and a message board comparable to this one but entirely focussed on writing for children.

There is also the SCBWI website.

scope · Apr 3, 2008

Hi cwgranny,

I can't agree with you 100% on this one.

Yes, we can definitely say that publishers are responsible for marketing or selling books they publish. However, I believe the original post on this thread questioned the need for writers to have a marketing plan.

When sending a proper proposal to an editor or agent, part of it must contain the writers marketing plan, be the writer a first timer or experienced. Editors expect and want a marketing plan, a realistic one, not a dream sequence. Basically, the editor is asking the writer to define his or her network, state its size, and how s/he will bring this network information about the book. In other words how is the author going to spread the word about his or her book?

No question, schools visits, library talks, blogs, websites, and much more are ceratinly appropriate, but specifics about same have to be included.

cwgranny · Apr 3, 2008

Well, I haven't actually ever seen a publisher ask for a marketing plan so I'll take your word for it. Though it sounds like you're describing the writer's promotion plan which I've never had a publisher take an interest in. I'll cheerfully accept that some publishers want to know how you intend to promote and don't know enough not to call that marketing.

Now, some publishers of nonfiction actually want to know a MARKET analysis -- they want to know how your book fits in the market. What books will it compete with, how is your different, how do you see the buying niche...they don't actually expect you to market it but they expect you to know how it fits in the pre-existing market. But that's the only way I've heard a publisher talk about marketing information from writers.

Still, like I said, I wouldn't be shocked to hear some publishers want to know your promotional plan and call it marketing. Heck, some publishers sell books to writers and call it traditional publishing. It's a brave new world out there.

scope · Apr 3, 2008

Everything you say about a market analysis is true.

A market analysis should be a part of a writer's query letter and expounded upon in a writer's proposal.

A market plan, as I described in my post, is different from a market analysis and most publishers insist on same as part of the writer's proposal. Publishers want to know just how writers can help bring exposure to the book and spread the word.

While you and I can agree that the proof of the pudding should only be the book, publishers tilt more and more toward writers with a strong audience or who have the credentials to reach a large audience.

The semantics are confusing.

cwgranny · Apr 4, 2008

Well, I still argue that MOST of the children's publishers don't ask for a market plan because if MOST of them did, I would have heard of SOMEONE of the many published writers I know doing one or of the editors I know talking about them and I haven't...except, well, every once in a while someone will pop asking about one in a spot like this or a mailing list where published writers hang out and we'll kinda look at each other and say, "I dunno? Some new thing? Why do they want you to market something -- is it a publisher who doesn't get into bookstores?"

So, I still think most don't. Apparently some do. Maybe it's even a growing thing...but most in children's book publishing, most don't. Maybe it's some overflow thing from adult book publishing? 'Cause I dunno jack about adult book publishing, it's not my field.

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