The Next Circle of Hell

ChocolateChipCookie said:

Here's to a Monday with no rejections for us!

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LOL. Way to look on the bright side of editor vacations.


((((Lily))))

NJC, sending you lots and lots of luck, though it doesn't sound like you'll need it.

Fuschia, I am so with you on vacation. I wish I had one coming up involving a Kindle and a beach.

I did have a slow day at work today, which hardly ever happens. And I got almost 1,500 words written on my novel. That NEVER happens. Oh, what I could accomplish if I had eight hours to write every day. A girl can dream, can't she?

Good luck, you guys!

Quickbread said:

LOL. Way to look on the bright side of editor vacations.


((((Lily))))

NJC, sending you lots and lots of luck, though it doesn't sound like you'll need it.

Fuschia, I am so with you on vacation. I wish I had one coming up involving a Kindle and a beach.

I did have a slow day at work today, which hardly ever happens. And I got almost 1,500 words written on my novel. That NEVER happens. Oh, what I could accomplish if I had eight hours to write every day. A girl can dream, can't she?

Good luck, you guys!

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We have to dream, right! Good job on your 1,500 words, that's a satisfying amount.

Well, it's Dreaded Tuesday. At least we survived Monstrous Monday.

Game over.

The editor we had the awesome call with yesterday pitched it to their team, but they passed. They were concerned with selling it to a YA audience and feel it's better as new adult or adult. (Funny enough, one of yesterday's rejections was from an adult editor, who said the voice was too young.) It was a really nice rejection and she said that if I write more YA in the future, she'd "love to consider," but it's a pass.

Womp.

About to go crawl under the covers with the hubs and lick my wounds. It's up in the air as to whether we'll do an R&R, as now there's only one editor who wants one (the call from last week) and I feel like there's no point. Feeling quite dejected.

Calla Lily said:

And... we won't go on sub till after Labor Day because as The Agent says, the publishing world pretty much shuts down the second half of August.

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Yup, I'm with you. My agent said a week ago my YA MS is ready to go, but she's working on the next steps, which I'm assuming means she's not going to sub until September. (I sort of wonder why agents don't just get their manuscripts in line, like a querying writer is usually counseled to do, because it seems like there'll be a flood of submissions come Labor Day. But I guess maybe it's the hope that there'll be an auction or something and they want to make sure all editors are in town?)

NJC116 said:

Game over.

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Oh, NJC. I'm so, so sorry. I prescribe snuggles and chocolate and escapist television.

(((((((((((NJC)))))))))))) I'm so sorry. Sending you lots of good vibes.

Argh, I'm so sorry to hear that, NJC.

The whole is it/isn't it YA thing is just confounding sometimes, especially with no one seeming to know if NA is a solid thing. But that remaining R&R did sound promising...

Oh no, NJC! I'm so sorry!

Sorry to hear that, NJC.

*hugs and chocolates*

(((((((((((NJC)))))))))))) Just remember it's all part of the process.

My first summer on sub has definitely lived up to the publishing-ghost-town theory. Here's hoping Labor Day gets here quickly. LOL!

Sorry NJC! I bet it will sell as an NA, then. If those editors were so close, that means others will be interested, too.

Mandy, I am counting the days 'til Labor Day, too. I can't wait for those early rejections everyone keeps telling me about

(Granted, we're pretty much at the point where I got my first responses last time, and that wasn't even a summer sub! So maybe I have a little longer to wait until those initial reactions.)

Thanks, everybody. I was in the fetal position for most of the afternoon on Tuesday and consumed my weight in Ferrero Rochers. Yesterday, I felt much more positive about things. Today, I woke to a series of emails from my agent and packager that now has left me with a question to ponder:

Do we self-publish? What are your thoughts?

My instinct is a snobbish one, but I recoiled at the suggestion from the packager. Agent seemed less than thrilled but finally relented. She's having lunch today with one of the potential R&R editors, so it remains to be seem what will happen with that. I assume we'll revise and resubmit, but I also have steeled myself to the probability that she'll eventually pass again.

If she does pass, the packager is pushing for self-publishing. He can't try to sell the film/TV rights until then and he's champing at the bit. I have a mental block against self-publishing and see it as failure, but once I set the snobbery aside, there are three distinct advantages:

1) we don't have to make it YA and can write the story the way it should be told, not the way the genre dictates;
2) the packager can then try to sell the rights (which he feels confident he will - who knows?);
3) I am expecting some significant TV publicity next year. The book may be featured, possibly even heavily, and if I have something to promote, I could publicize the pre-sales in interviews.

What do you guys think? Is self-publishing failure? If the book doesn't sell well, even in the self-publishing ghetto (my biggest fear), am I out of the game forever? I'm mulling over worst-case scenarios on all fronts: the editor will pass on the R&R, the rights won't sell, the book won't sell, the show won't feature the book (or will feature it, and then I'll simply be branded a failed writer). Would love your advice.

And hoping for a speedy August for the rest of you, followed by a slew of gleeful phone calls from agents come September!!

I don't know anything about self-publishing, but I definitely think it's not a label for failure these days. Sounds like you have a lot of options for keeping the manuscript moving forward.

Are you thinking of self-publishing with edits or as is?

I do think if editors are unsure how to market your book or capture the right audience, that genre uncertainty will still exist, regardless of how it's published. I would think having the genre distinction squared away is even more important in self-publishing, where your marketing/promotional efforts have to do all the work, and having clear appeal to a clear target audience is critical. But your agent and packager probably have more cogent thoughts on that stuff than I do.

Just my two cents from the marketing perspective (my day job). Good luck with your decision!

I just checked out the SP room, Calla Lily, thanks! Lots to dive into and learn about.

Quickbread, if we self-published, I think we'd do so with edits. The packager has been consistently trying to skew it ever-so-slightly older and sexier, for a potential rights sale. (And I prefer writing in that vein, too.) However, instead of making it more YA if we self-pub, I think we'd make it much more NA, bordering on chick-lit. If we do R&R, it'll have to be more YA.

Honestly, I'm confused by why the editors seem unsure of how to market it. To both the packager and me (and I believe my agent, although I can't speak with as much confidence for her), the marketing is obvious and the promotion is obvious. It has a very clear target audience: one who either will be into it, or won't, genre-be-damned. With this audience, whether it's YA or NA or chick-lit really wouldn't matter. At least, that's how it seems to the packager (who used to be a lit agent himself) and me. But what do I know?!

I definitely don't want to disregard consistent feedback from the YA editors - I trust they know what they're talking about for that market. But I've never felt this book was necessarily meant to be YA. I guess at this point I'm spinning my wheels with the what-ifs, and just need to wait and see whether agent recommends R&R or self-pub.

NJC116 said:

The packager has been consistently trying to skew it ever-so-slightly older and sexier, for a potential rights sale. (And I prefer writing in that vein, too.) However, instead of making it more YA if we self-pub, I think we'd make it much more NA, bordering on chick-lit. If we do R&R, it'll have to be more YA.

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Definitely check out Leah Raeder/leahzero's thread in the Self-Pub forum. Her book is sexy NA (but the protagonist is 18 and in high school, so right on the borderline), and it's an inspiring story.

For me, the biggest reason not to self-publish is that I want to see my books in stores. But I have a book that went through one failed submission cycle; I've completely rewritten it and think it's pretty commercial. If trade publication never works out for it, I may end up wanting to take that route, because I can envision selling it myself. I know how I'd make it stand out, what I'd emphasize.

For self-pub, I think a high concept really, really helps. As does anything sexy, of course.

As a reviewer, I've seen plenty of terribly written and produced self-pub books, so I understand where the stigma comes from. But reading a few excellent titles changed my mind. The challenge is getting yours in front of people.

Did your agent submit your book to many editors who handle NA, if it works in that category? Or is the problem that there just aren't enough of them?

Thanks for the recommendation, Fuschia - I'm going to check out that thread! It sounds like it's very applicable: my story centers around two girls, ages 17 and 18.

Agent submitted the book almost exclusively to YA editors - who said it was too old. The one exception was my old editor--an adult editor--who said the voice was too young. It's like reverse Goldilocks: too young, too old, nothing is just right!

If we go the YA route with the revision, we've discussed making their ages 16 and 17 and putting both characters in high school, rather than just one. Having a phone call with an editor on Weds (the one my agent had lunch with yesterday regarding the R&R), but I have zero idea what to expect.

After learning more about NA, I'm mildly irritated my agent didn't approach more NA editors. But maybe you're right - maybe there aren't enough of them?

I feel you on not wanting to self-publish because of the desire to see your books in stores! I keep feeding myself terrible cliches as reminders of what's important: it's about the journey, not the destination; writing, not success, is the important part; blah blah blah.

NJC116 said:

Agent submitted the book almost exclusively to YA editors - who said it was too old. The one exception was my old editor--an adult editor--who said the voice was too young. It's like reverse Goldilocks: too young, too old, nothing is just right!

If we go the YA route with the revision, we've discussed making their ages 16 and 17 and putting both characters in high school, rather than just one. Having a phone call with an editor on Weds (the one my agent had lunch with yesterday regarding the R&R), but I have zero idea what to expect.

After learning more about NA, I'm mildly irritated my agent didn't approach more NA editors. But maybe you're right - maybe there aren't enough of them?

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Good luck with your phone call! Maybe this editor will turn out to the right one.

Is your book straight contemporary, or does it have any SFF aspects? I'm far from an expert, but I get the sense that NA editors are still leery of anything that doesn't fit the "sexy contemp romance" pattern. Which is too bad!

The book I recently sent pages of to my agent does not have a single scene set in high school, and the MC is 18. I fear it may fall in the Neverland of "not YA enough, and not a contemp romance." (Although Fangirl is a YA novel set in college ... go figure. Maybe the coming-of-age themes make the difference?)

We had a gorgeous, gorgeous weekend, and I spent Saturday frantically rewriting one of my books and Sunday working at my job. Barely got out. I just have to remember that Saturday was my choice...

Wishing everybody good Monday and Tuesday news or nothing!

Wishing everyone good luck responses on this Monday morning.

NJC116 said:

Thanks, everybody. I was in the fetal position for most of the afternoon on Tuesday and consumed my weight in Ferrero Rochers. Yesterday, I felt much more positive about things. Today, I woke to a series of emails from my agent and packager that now has left me with a question to ponder:

Do we self-publish? What are your thoughts?

My instinct is a snobbish one, but I recoiled at the suggestion from the packager. Agent seemed less than thrilled but finally relented. She's having lunch today with one of the potential R&R editors, so it remains to be seem what will happen with that. I assume we'll revise and resubmit, but I also have steeled myself to the probability that she'll eventually pass again.

If she does pass, the packager is pushing for self-publishing. He can't try to sell the film/TV rights until then and he's champing at the bit. I have a mental block against self-publishing and see it as failure, but once I set the snobbery aside, there are three distinct advantages:

1) we don't have to make it YA and can write the story the way it should be told, not the way the genre dictates;
2) the packager can then try to sell the rights (which he feels confident he will - who knows?);
3) I am expecting some significant TV publicity next year. The book may be featured, possibly even heavily, and if I have something to promote, I could publicize the pre-sales in interviews.

What do you guys think? Is self-publishing failure? If the book doesn't sell well, even in the self-publishing ghetto (my biggest fear), am I out of the game forever? I'm mulling over worst-case scenarios on all fronts: the editor will pass on the R&R, the rights won't sell, the book won't sell, the show won't feature the book (or will feature it, and then I'll simply be branded a failed writer). Would love your advice.

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I am so sorry I know how that feels!!! Chocolate does help, lol, and wine. Seriously, I did end up self-publishing. For me, it has been a huge success, and I am so thankful for that option!

NJC116 said:

What do you guys think? Is self-publishing failure? If the book doesn't sell well, even in the self-publishing ghetto (my biggest fear), am I out of the game forever? I'm mulling over worst-case scenarios on all fronts: the editor will pass on the R&R, the rights won't sell, the book won't sell, the show won't feature the book (or will feature it, and then I'll simply be branded a failed writer). Would love your advice.

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I'm going to address the self-publishing part first. I've done it, and I will continue to actively do it. Why? Because of the Benjamins, baby! I've been publishing for years with smaller publishers while still working a full time job (Granted, I just signed with my agent last year, so here's hoping for the bigger publishers in the future), but I wasn't able to quit my day job until I started self-publishing. Now, my publishing approach is this: I decide which projects my agent is going to shop first and which ones will be self published right away (and books that I don't own the North American Rights to, I review my contacts and exploit the rights I do own, i.e. self-pubbing translations, audio, etc.). There are a few digital-first publishers I'd consider publishing with, but other than those, I'll really only go one way or the other. Neither of my pen names are popular. I've never hit a major list (though I've been in the top 10 on Amazon (overall, not just category) and on B&N)... but the months when my self-pubbed royalties hit five figures, I always smile. Is this route right for everyone? No. It takes time and money if done right, and some authors just don't want to fool with all that's involved. That's totally okay. You have to do what's best for you...but I think you'd be surprised how many authors are leaving their NY publishers to self pub. Personally, I like having my hand in many cookie jars, so doing both works for me.

Now onto the New Adult thing...I've heard from editors (both through email (response to a submission) and in person (conferences this summer) that it's a hard sale. They are tired of the college settings. They want something different (not every person goes to college), yet they still only seem to be taking on what they know can sale (contemporary). Personally, I think the industry still has a hard time understanding this niche. If it can be pitched as either y/a or adult then it's easier to go to one of the proven markets (and at RWA, I heard from several that y/a is hot right now). Hopefully things will get better with the new adult market.

That's inspiring, Mandy! I can't imagine making five figures in a month. You obviously know your market and craft, as opposed to some people who put up slapped-together books hoping to get rich quick and, of course, don't.

It seems like hybrid authors are becoming more common, and it's a pretty cool trend. I'm interested to see where it goes. As long as you can get professional-looking books into people's hands (or onto their tablets), I don't think you have to worry about a stigma anymore.

My agent likes the first 100 pages of my new ms.! (Actually it's an old one, but I've been replotting it.) She did raise some market issues that I'm mulling over, but I think I'll go for a complete revision-- probably while drafting something else.