Dumb Question: -30- At End of Manuscript

inkkognito · Feb 21, 2008

Okay, am I just hopelessly old-fashioned? Back when I started writing in the 1980s, mansucript format dictated ending with -30-. I took a 15 year hiatus and went right back to using the same old format. Today I received an email from an editor saying, "I noticed the -30- at the end of your manuscript. Has it been published previously?"

I hastened to assure her that it hadn't (I figured that asking rather than rejecting it out of hand means she is seriously considering it), but then I started to wonder if I've been committing a format faux pas. A Google search turned up opinions on both sides, so I thought I would throw myself upon the Infallible Wisdom of the Forum.

KTC · Feb 21, 2008

It means THE END.

-30-

(An editor didn't know this?)

KTC · Feb 21, 2008

Pronunciation: (thûr'tē-dash"), [key]
—n.
Print., Journalism.the symbol —30—, —XXX—, —O—, etc., often used to mark the end of a piece of copy, story, etc.

ExposingCorruption · Feb 21, 2008

Nobody told me about the -30-. If I ever get an agent to read my manuscript, I hope that they won't get to the end and expect to see more simply because they don't see a -30-. Maybe I should just put THE END so as not to confuse them.

KTC · Feb 21, 2008

The thing is... it shouldn't confuse them. I would think all editors know of this -30-.

ishtar'sgate · Feb 21, 2008

I believe that's an editing notation. You don't need to use it. Simply, "The End", is all they expect from the writer.
Linnea

Sassee · Feb 22, 2008

Why the number 30? Does that have any significance? I've never seen that before... and I've read books from the '80s.

jst5150 · Feb 22, 2008

-30- is big in journalism. I've never seen it spill over into other mediums.

ETA: Some potential origin info.

While no one’s sure why 30 was used as an end sign, there is no shortage of ideas.
The Writer’s Market Web site offers a number of plausible explanations, with 30 coming from, alternatively:

a Roman numeral translation of the XXX symbol put at the end of “very early, handwritten news items”;

the 30 story quota the Associated Press writers once had (writers would allegedly number their stories with 30 being the last);

a reporter adding his name, Thirtee, to the a news piece sent via telegraph which was then translated as 30;

or an early typesetting mark used 30 to indicate the end of a line.

KTC · Feb 22, 2008

Yeah...you won't find it in books, Sass. I use it when writing articles and fiction, as the natural indication that the story/article is over. I have always used it. It's for the editor...doesn't go to print.

DeleyanLee · Feb 22, 2008

I've occasionally seen it used by unpublished writers for the end of short stories, but I've never seen a published fictioneer use it on anything I've beta-read, FWIW.

inkkognito · Feb 22, 2008

Hmmmm, this makes more sense to me. I cut my teeth stringing for newspapers and have always done non-fiction...although my memory is hazy of exactly who taught me that format, but the newspaper is probably where it came from. Seems like this is one of those things you either know or don't, and that editor must just have never run into it before. I was just a little surprised that she would think it meant my article was published before.

Devil Ledbetter · Feb 22, 2008

-- 30 -- is what they taught us to use in journalism school.

HeronW · Feb 22, 2008

Looks like -30- is a dinosaur leftover from the hand-leading days. I've also seen where you don't put 'the end' unless your ms ends at or near the bottom of a page.

BardSkye · Feb 22, 2008

I thought it originated with the telegraph, to signify that the message (or story) was indeed at the end rather than just lost or garbled in transmission.

IceCreamEmpress · Feb 22, 2008

Don't put it at the end of anything but a newspaper article. It isn't used in magazine publishing these days, either. As for fiction, nuh-uh.

melaniehoo · Feb 22, 2008

I've seen it on blogs and wasn't sure what it meant, so thanks for explaining. I took a couple journalism courses but I guess we didn't get that far.

Arisa81 · Feb 22, 2008

I've never seen the -30-, but I do use # at the end of every article to signal the end. I think I read about that somewhere.

DWSTXS · Feb 22, 2008

My thought is that the editor DID know what it meant, but erroneously assumed that the author didn't know, and then maybe had the thought that another editor/publisher put it there when reading/editing/publishing it.

Dumb Question: -30- At End of Manuscript

inkkognito

Onlyifyouwanttowillyoufin daway-Enya

KTC

Stand in the Place Where You Live

KTC

Stand in the Place Where You Live

ExposingCorruption

AW Addict

KTC

Stand in the Place Where You Live

ishtar'sgate

living in the past

Sassee

Momma Wolf

jst5150

Vorpal Comics. Weekly Podcast. Twitch Artist. Vet

KTC

Stand in the Place Where You Live

DeleyanLee

Writing Anarchist

inkkognito

Onlyifyouwanttowillyoufin daway-Enya

Devil Ledbetter

Come on you stranger, you legend,

HeronW

Down Under Fan

BardSkye

Barbershoppin' Harmony Whore

IceCreamEmpress

Hapless Virago

melaniehoo

And thus we begin the edits

Arisa81

DWSTXS

Mr Mojo Risin...