Rain Publishing

Death Wizard · Jul 7, 2007

job said:
It would seem that you're one of the few here with direct experience.

1) Did you sign your copyrights over to Rain publishing?
2) Did you pay them any money?
3) Did you receive an advance?
4) Have they distributed hard copies of your book to bookstores?

If the answers are --

1) I hold the copyright. They have first North American Publication Rights only.
2) Not a penny.
3) $2000. and
4) The books are on the shelves of Barnes and Noble right now.

Then I'd say you've signed with a good small press.

It's not all that hard to tell a small press from a scammer. You look which way the money flows.

1) I signed a contract that was examined by my agent. There were aspects of it that he wasn't entirely comfortable with, but not to the point where he said it was a deal-breaker. No company can do absurd things in their contracts and expect them to stand up in court.
2) Not a penny.
3) I was paid no advance. But is that so unheard of in this day and age, when first-time fiction is such a difficult sell? How many of you out there remain unpublished, despite being talented?
4) Book One of my series debuts in September, so at this point it's not on any bookshelves.

All I know is, I have thus far been treated with professionalism and respect by Rain. Would I have preferred to sign a mega-deal with a huge publisher? Of course ... I'm not an idiot. But I have no previous novels to my credit, and on top of that the fantasy market is glutted. So I did the best I could. In my opinion, Rain is a legitimate small publisher -- not perfect but not in any way sinister or crooked. In the beginning, my agent was lambasted in this same way. But he was legit then and he is highly respected now. I see Rain going in the same direction. And if not, what would you have me do? I'd rather be published than not published. At least it gives me a fighting chance.

Birol · Jul 7, 2007

Interesting dissection of my quote.

job said:
However, there are also scammers.

I never said there weren't.

Sometimes the 'business model' is that the scammer does not charge the sucker for publishing a book.
Instead, he sells the sucker books, directly or indirectly.

Yes, but to date, there's been no indication that Rain is following this business model. Everything reported has pointed to inexperience and ignorance of the industry.

This business of co-opting the copyrights.
That's bad for the author. Just plain bad.

Yes, but again, that's not scamming if it's not about money; just an inexperienced publisher that it would be better for writers to avoid at this time.

triceretops · Jul 7, 2007

I'm with the same outfit too, and I've taken some lumps, certainly because of this thread. Nope, this is not an ideal publisher for many people. They are more inept or lacking than crooked, and I've discussed this with my agent too--and Victoria--and Dave and others. They certainly do things off the board and in a cockeyed fashion and I do admit to that because I know the difference. They're placing books in Canadian book stores primarily, with some U.S. independents and a few overseas. Most small press books remain on the internet exclusively, unless an author personally places the book in the store. At least Rain has put them there, not the author.

I'm offset, print run of 1,500--not huge, hardly a piddle. Give me a list of small press publishers who are doing 1,500 on a debut novel. I don't mean medium, I mean small. You know what I'm seeing out there? POD all the way. Most small press won't even invest in a solid print run. Rain does no print on demand at all. Offset only.

No advance.

Did not cost me a penny.

Editing--yes
Cover design--yes
Contact--yes
From contract to publication--seven months
Competitive cover price--yes
Banners, press kits, books, book marks, T-shirts provided for all signings at no cost to the author.
Deep discounts and full returns
I do not like the the meager discount to authors--I agree here. I'm going to bang the drum on that.

Am I deleriously happy. No. I'm satisfied. They're listening to our suggestions and implimenting those suggestions at our request. A publisher who doesn't correct their mistakes are the ones I fear the most.

Tri

priceless1 · Jul 8, 2007

deathwizard said:
1) I signed a contract that was examined by my agent.

Hi Deathwizard. Out of all the points you make, this one scares me the most. Why, why, why would your agent allow you to sign away the rights to your book? This is your property. The publisher should only have the right to publish it. Since you've signed your book away, Rain can do anything they want with your story. They could turn it into a smut book if they wanted. Great money in smut. Did you work this hard on your story only to allow someone else to do whatever they want? And furthermore, what is your agent thinking?

There were aspects of it that he wasn't entirely comfortable with, but not to the point where he said it was a deal-breaker.

Again, what is your agent thinking? Not a deal breaker? If giving away every right to your own story isn't a deal breaker, then what is?

No company can do absurd things in their contracts and expect them to stand up in court.

Want to bet? You signed the contract, so it's pretty rock solid. Look at how difficult it is to break free from Publish America. The courts are nearly always in the favor of the publisher. If you signed this contract with this philosophy in mind, you're in for a very sad education.

I was paid no advance. But is that so unheard of in this day and age, when first-time fiction is such a difficult sell?

No, it's not too unheard of, but it's not a good sign that they have much faith that your book will sell, or in Rain's case, that you'll sell enough to make an advance doable.

How many of you out there remain unpublished, despite being talented?

Oh please. Can we kindly put a moratorium on this worn out argument? This excuse is yanked out of mothballs every time someone needs to defend their decisions for going with a bad publisher. Talented new authors are pubbed every day by good, solid boutique publishers.

All I know is, I have thus far been treated with professionalism and respect by Rain.

These qualities are lovely, but they don't sell books. Distribution sells books. Marketing and promotion sells books. Working fourteen hour days seven days a week sells books. Networking sells books. Being on seminar panels and attending trade shows sells books. And I'm talking about the publisher here, not the author.

I see Rain going in the same direction. And if not, what would you have me do? I'd rather be published than not published.

Sadly, this last sentence says it all, Deathwizard. I see this every day, and it breaks my heart to know that many authors' dreams and books are going to die at the hands of others because their desire to see their work in print overrode their desire to take care.

Tri said: Give me a list of small press publishers who are doing 1,500 on a debut novel. I don't mean medium, I mean small. You know what I'm seeing out there? POD all the way. Most small press won't even invest in a solid print run.

Tri, depending upon pre-sales, we do print runs starting at 2,000 on most of our books. If all you're seeing out there are POD's, then you need to look harder. There are many solid small presses out there whose books are on store and library shelves. We're pretty small, and we're getting our first NY Times review. My point is that no one should tell themselves that it's hopeless and, therefore, the only option is to settle for a company like Rain or others. It's wrong thinking and simply untrue.

Death Wizard · Jul 8, 2007

priceless1 said:
Hi Deathwizard. Out of all the points you make, this one scares me the most. Why, why, why would your agent allow you to sign away the rights to your book? This is your property. The publisher should only have the right to publish it. Since you've signed your book away, Rain can do anything they want with your story. They could turn it into a smut book if they wanted. Great money in smut. Did you work this hard on your story only to allow someone else to do whatever they want? And furthermore, what is your agent thinking?

Again, what is your agent thinking? Not a deal breaker? If giving away every right to your own story isn't a deal breaker, then what is?

Want to bet? You signed the contract, so it's pretty rock solid. Look at how difficult it is to break free from Publish America. The courts are nearly always in the favor of the publisher. If you signed this contract with this philosophy in mind, you're in for a very sad education.

No, it's not too unheard of, but it's not a good sign that they have much faith that your book will sell, or in Rain's case, that you'll sell enough to make an advance doable.

Oh please. Can we kindly put a moratorium on this worn out argument? This excuse is yanked out of mothballs every time someone needs to defend their decisions for going with a bad publisher. Talented new authors are pubbed every day by good, solid boutique publishers.

These qualities are lovely, but they don't sell books. Distribution sells books. Marketing and promotion sells books. Working fourteen hour days seven days a week sells books. Networking sells books. Being on seminar panels and attending trade shows sells books. And I'm talking about the publisher here, not the author.

Sadly, this last sentence says it all, Deathwizard. I see this every day, and it breaks my heart to know that many authors' dreams and books are going to die at the hands of others because their desire to see their work in print overrode their desire to take care.

Tri, depending upon pre-sales, we do print runs starting at 2,000 on most of our books. If all you're seeing out there are POD's, then you need to look harder. There are many solid small presses out there whose books are on store and library shelves. We're pretty small, and we're getting our first NY Times review. My point is that no one should tell themselves that it's hopeless and, therefore, the only option is to settle for a company like Rain or others. It's wrong thinking and simply untrue.

I've said my piece and can't win anything by arguing further. Time will tell.

priceless1 · Jul 8, 2007

deathwizard said:
I've said my piece and can't win anything by arguing further. Time will tell.

This wasn't about win or lose, Deathwizard. It's about education. In order for you to fully understand what you and your agent got you into, you need to an education as to how the industry works. That was my only intent. Of course I wish you nothing but the very best.

herdon · Jul 8, 2007

I wouldn't expect a legit agent to sign away copyright to a publisher even if the author asked him to except under extroidinary circumstances. I'd expect a legit agent to drop an author first.

That said, I wouldn't assume Deathwizard's contract had the copyright grab until he verified it. I think he skipped that question, or at least I didn't see him answer it.

Death Wizard · Jul 8, 2007

priceless1 said:
Of course I wish you nothing but the very best.

The feeling is mutual.

Death Wizard · Jul 8, 2007

Havlen said:
I wouldn't expect a legit agent to sign away copyright to a publisher even if the author asked him to except under extroidinary circumstances. I'd expect a legit agent to drop an author first.

That said, I wouldn't assume Deathwizard's contract had the copyright grab until he verified it. I think he skipped that question, or at least I didn't see him answer it.

I didn't explain myself properly, in terms of my agent's role in this. He introduced my work to the very largest publishers on down. The rejections were positive in tone, but rejections, nonetheless. I signed with Rain on my own, though I showed the contract to my agent first. He had reservations about it, and told me so, in detail. But his reservations, in my opinion, were not a deal-breaker for me. As to my contract's specific wordings, I respectfully would prefer not to discuss them. They are between me and my publisher -- though, Havlen, I mean no offense to you in saying so.

priceless1 · Jul 8, 2007

deathwizard said:
I didn't explain myself properly, in terms of my agent's role in this. He introduced my work to the very largest publishers on down. The rejections were positive in tone, but rejections, nonetheless. I signed with Rain on my own, though I showed the contract to my agent first. He had reservations about it, and told me so, in detail. But his reservations, in my opinion, were not a deal-breaker for me. As to my contract's specific wordings, I respectfully would prefer not to discuss them. They are between me and my publisher -- though, Havlen, I mean no offense to you in saying so.

Deathwizard, thanks for clearing this up. I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to use this as a general example of an agent's job so that others understand how it works.

An agent's job is to protect their client, regardless of who ultimately finds the publisher. It's their job to negotiate the contract, regardless of who finds the publisher. Agents are duty bound to do more than express reservations. They should jump up and down, threaten to never be friends again, whatever it takes to prevent their clients from making a terrible mistake. They should do this because it's right and to protect their own reputation. If their client refuses to listen, they should drop the client immediately.

Death Wizard · Jul 8, 2007

priceless1 said:
Deathwizard, thanks for clearing this up. I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to use this as a general example of an agent's job so that others understand how it works.

An agent's job is to protect their client, regardless of who ultimately finds the publisher. It's their job to negotiate the contract, regardless of who finds the publisher. Agents are duty bound to do more than express reservations. They should jump up and down, threaten to never be friends again, whatever it takes to prevent their clients from making a terrible mistake. They should do this because it's right and to protect their own reputation. If their client refuses to listen, they should drop the client immediately.

I do mind your doing this. You don't know the specifics of my contract, and you're jumping to conclusions that I'm uneducated about the publishing industry and that my agent has bungled something. In my opinion, you don't have enough information about my situation to make these statements with authority.

priceless1 · Jul 8, 2007

deathwizard said:
You don't know the specifics of my contract, and you're jumping to conclusions that I'm uneducated about the publishing industry and that my agent has bungled something. In my opinion, you don't have enough information about my situation to make these statements with authority.

Quite right that I don't know the specifics of your contract. But I do have the specifics on this publisher, and that's enough for me to draw my conclusions. I'm sorry, but you are undereducated as to how the business works, otherwise you would have sought out a better company that could do more for your book. There's nothing wrong with being unschooled in something, but it's a tragedy to pass on free advice from people within the industry.

The latter part of my previous post didn't pertain to you, necessarily, but as a general rundown of what writers should expect from their agent.

Anyway, I'll leave you to it. Best of luck to you.

Death Wizard · Jul 8, 2007

priceless1 said:
There's nothing wrong with being unschooled in something, but it's a tragedy to pass on free advice from people within the industry.

It was never my intention to pass on free advice. It's not like I've ever ignored your advice, which I'm certain does come with great authority and extensive knowledge of the publishing industry. It's just that my contract was signed long before I ever heard a word from you.

Ali B · Jul 8, 2007

Priceless, even if you are right, there's no need to beat him over the head with it.

job · Jul 8, 2007

deathwizard said:
1) I signed a contract that was examined by my agent. There were aspects of it that he wasn't entirely comfortable with, but not to the point where he said it was a deal-breaker. No company can do absurd things in their contracts and expect them to stand up in court.

They can't demand your first-born son, of course, even if it's specified in the contract.

I dunnoh. Your agent explained the ramifications of selling the copyright.

But ... I keep thinking ...
you do know that if Rain owns the copyright on your first novel, you no longer have any rights to those characters you created or the world you built?
Your words and your story now belong to them.

Unless your contract says otherwise ...

-- They can take your work and publish it in any form they like.
-- They can modify it -- adding chapters, changing the plot.
-- Unless you have specified payment for electronic rights .. (have you?) .. they may very well be able to sell it in e-book form and pay you no royalties for those sales.
-- They can base slash fiction upon it.
-- They can hand it to someone else to rewrite in full or in part.

-- They can write their own sequels and pay you no royalties on them.

-- They can forbid you, the original author, from selling any written work about that world again.

This business of turning over your copyright seems so counter-intuitive for somebody planning a series.

Just me. I guess I tend to fret.

Popeyesays · Jul 8, 2007

Actually, Priceless, I don't think anyone doubts Dr. Stender's reputation. He is certainly no newbie either.

I don't think your company does genre fiction, do they? At last word that was not the case. It might be implied that you are speaking without a lot of knowledge of the vagaries of genre fiction in general and SF/H fiction in particular.

The larger publishers are doing fewer new author novels--it's not a rumor, it's a fact. They do a certain number of books per year and their stable of authors gets the lion's share of those production slots.

If you want to discuss SF/H in partoicular some open minded conversation with those who write it might be in order.

I do not know what particular phrasing the contract had in regards to copyright for Tri's and Deathwizard's books, I suspect it was something other than Rain's standard contract since Dr. Stender was involved in that negotiation.

i won't sign a contract that releases my copyright, and have turned down those that do. I have not seen Rain's actual contract, and I have never submitted to that publisher anyway.

new publisher's--even those with less than perfect understanding of the industry CAN learn, I've seen the evidence.

Regards,
Scott

priceless1 · Jul 8, 2007

alinasandor said:
Priceless, even if you are right, there's no need to beat him over the head with it.

You misunderstand. There was no beating over the head intended. Why on earth would I want to beat up an author? I brought up valid points that I thought would be of service to anyone looking for information. Like I said, it's not about being right, it's about education, and that was my sole intent. Take it or leave it.

job · Jul 8, 2007

priceless1 said:
a general example of an agent's job so that others understand how it works.

An agent's job is to protect their client, regardless of who ultimately finds the publisher. It's their job to negotiate the contract, regardless of who finds the publisher. Agents are duty bound to do more than express reservations. They should jump up and down, threaten to never be friends again, whatever it takes to prevent their clients from making a terrible mistake. They should do this because it's right and to protect their own reputation. If their client refuses to listen, they should drop the client immediately.

From the agent's point of view -- if the copyright to Book One has been sold -- the writer is now tied inextricably to this publisher for all of the planned sequels to the original novel.

This writer will (apparently) be doing years of work on mss that must be sold to Rain. The agent can't offer that future, more salable work to the New York houses. He has no hope of negotiating better contracts with Rain, because he has no leverage whatsoever.

Must be discouraging for an agent.

priceless1 · Jul 8, 2007

Popeyesays said:
Actually, Priceless, I don't think anyone doubts Dr. Stender's reputation.

Don't bet the farm on that. If you go through any number of posts regarding Uwe, you'll see that there are plenty learned opinions who differ from yours.

He is certainly no newbie either.

What does that have to do with anything? The question is whether he did right by his client. Look, I have nothing against Uwe. He's a nice guy and I know his heart is in the right place. He's delightfully polite and very prompt. My opinions stem from my professional dealings with him, so I'm not talking off the top of my head here.

I'm thrilled to see that Uwe's gotten some really good sales. His sale to Sourcebooks was very cool. Bravo. But this deal with Rain leaves me scratching my head. I work with too many great agents, and I know that each of them would have screamed bloody murder at seeing one of their clients sign with an iffy company.

I don't think your company does genre fiction, do they? At last word that was not the case.

One look at our website will confirm that fact. So? We're not talking genre fiction.You'll note that I stay out of conversations that surround genre fiction because we don't publish this type of work. But that's not the issue with this particular thread. We're talking about a company who has irregular publishing practices and an agent that let it happen. Yes, it's been mentioned that he merely reviewed the contract but didn't negotiate it. But if that's the case, then why is it on his site as a sale? It gives the impression he is responsible for the sale.

It might be implied that you are speaking without a lot of knowledge of the vagaries of genre fiction in general and SF/H fiction in particular.

Are you implying that genre fiction doesn't adhere to the normal laws of good publishing standards? If so, then we don't have much to discuss.

The larger publishers are doing fewer new author novels--it's not a rumor, it's a fact. They do a certain number of books per year and their stable of authors gets the lion's share of those production slots.

Even if this were true, which it isn't, does this justify signing a book away to a company who appears unable to get their product to market?

If you want to discuss SF/H in partoicular some open minded conversation with those who write it might be in order.

Um, I agree, provided we were actually having a SF/H conversation. I was under the impression we were having a publisher/agent conversation, something for which I feel qualified.

Look, people, you're more than welcome to blast me a new one if this suits your purposes. I offered a little bit of insight and education from my perspective because that's what we do on AW, right? Help and educate each other? It's increasingly clear that there are those who will do anything to see their work published, and I only hope that you aren't sticking your hands in your ears screaming, "La la la la."

job · Jul 8, 2007

Birol said:
Interesting dissection of my quote..

Interesting is a wonderfully ambiguous word.

Birol said:
Everything reported has pointed to inexperience and ignorance of the industry. ..

Hmmm ... I hope the learning curve at Rain includes dropping the 'copyright' requirement.

They are not book packagers. What do they want with copyright anyway?

If Rain truly intends to make a living selling books, they will eventually figure out ...
(how can I say this without being insulting to folks who have signed with them?)
... that most authors are not desperate enough to sell their copyright for peanuts, not when there are myriad small presses and e-publishers who do not ask them to do so.

You are perfectly right. I am incorrect. I should not accuse these folks of being scammers. There is some good evidence they are not.

Though what the devil they think they're going to do with these copyrights ...

priceless1 · Jul 8, 2007

job said:
From the agent's point of view -- if the copyright to Book One has been sold -- the writer is now tied inextricably to this publisher for all of the planned sequels to the original novel.

Well, not necessarily, Job. It depends upon the contract. Not all sequels are signed at once.

PLEASE NOTE: I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT RAIN OR UWE BUT MERELY ANSWERING A QUESTION
Any agent who would agree to a multi book deal with a publisher who grabs copyrights or can't get their product to market should be drawn and quartered. Given that perfect storm, the agent has screwed his client from here to Sunday.

This writer will (apparently) be doing years of work on mss that must be sold to Rain. The agent can't offer that future, more salable work to the New York houses. He has no hope of negotiating better contracts with Rain, because he has no leverage whatsoever.

That future work isn't salable anyway, because publishers don't want subsequent books in a series. They're too hard to market. They either want the entire series or, if it's huge, they'll negotiate for the rights to Book 1 so they can have the entire series. But, yeah, you're right, they've lost all leverage. Leverage is having a brilliant book and a smart agent.

Must be discouraging for an agent.

Um, well, the agent allowed it to happen, so you can't really shed any tears for them.

Chumplet · Jul 8, 2007

Don't be discouraged, Priceless. Some of us are following this with open eyes. I was curious about this publisher and I'm taking both sides of the story with a grain of salt.

Being Canadian, I'm looking at small presses that distribute in bookstores in Canada. I had a look at Rain's website and the one thing that threw me was the format of the submission. Why not the standard 8.5"x11" double spaced 12 point TNR or Courier? This baffles me. They are also not clear whether they are taking the full MS right off the bat for consideration, or whether the writer must query first.

I'm going to sit on this one for a while and see what develops. If they change their policies or adopt new business practices, I hope to see updates on their website.

Death Wizard · Jul 8, 2007

priceless1 said:
I'm thrilled to see that Uwe's gotten some really good sales. His sale to Sourcebooks was very cool. Bravo. But this deal with Rain leaves me scratching my head. I work with too many great agents, and I know that each of them would have screamed bloody murder at seeing one of their clients sign with an iffy company.

Again, you don' t know the details of my situation, or why I made my decision. And you don't know what Uwe said to me, or what I said to him. If I have done something wrong in signing with Rain (which remains debatable, in my opinion), it's not because of Uwe. He doesn't order me around or vice versa. And his sale to Sourcebooks is just one of several very large ones of late.

job · Jul 8, 2007

priceless1 said:
Well, not necessarily, Job. It depends upon the contract. Not all sequels are signed at once.

I was thinking more ... since Rain would own the copyright to those characters and the fictional word, the writer would not be able to use them in any future work sold to another publisher. If he did, the writer would be violating Rain's copyright on those characters.

priceless1 said:
That future work isn't salable anyway, because publishers don't want subsequent books in a series. They're too hard to market. They either want the entire series or, if it's huge, they'll negotiate for the rights to Book 1 so they can have the entire series.

I don't know much about SF/Fantasy, but I think you may be right.

In Romance, however, many authors have 'fictive worlds' (not strictly series,) and take their world and characters with them from publisher to publisher.

herdon · Jul 8, 2007

I would assume his contract isn't standard simply because I wouldn't understand a reputable agent not dropping the writer if they wanted to sign a contract that signs over copyright. Agents are in it to make money too, and it's tough to make money with an author that signs over all their rights.

That said, one thing that can be added to the list is movie rights, which the publisher can sell and not pay royalties on. Also, foreign rights might be an issue. Unless these things are also spelled out in the contract, the holder of the copyright has the right to negotiate and profit from those things.

Rain Publishing

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