I gave up.

HD: you've already received some great advice here. If your friend has other redeeming qualities, by all means maintain the friendship, but don't ever show her your work again or mention your writing. You need to protect your WIPs.

My SO said something similar when I mentioned a news article that would have made a great idea for a short story (he said "I would never read it, and I don't know anyone who'd be interested in that story."). That started a huge argument and killed the idea. To add insult to injury, 8 months later I read a story in the market I was going to submit to on the same idea! Looking back, it was stupid of me to bounce ideas off of him because (1) I write women's fiction and (2) he's read one novel and no short stories in all the years I've known him. Being a typical know-it-all guy, he also thinks he has wonderful story ideas that I should pursue ("You should write a story about tattoos!" "Uh, and?" "That's it! A story about tattoos. Isn't that a great idea? I'm good at coming up with ideas." "Yes, dear, you are. "). He also thinks that he could write a novel if he had the time. He doesn't mean to be insulting. He's just clueless. I love him anyway.

Yes, loved ones are great, but understand that your friends and family may be absolutely clueless when it comes to your personal goals (and vice versa). Now that you know your best friend is a toxic critiquer, keep the writing away from her. Don't even mention it to her anymore if need be. I hide my writing from pretty much everyone now to protect it and to keep the drama on the page instead of IRL. But also remember that your writing is not you, and if there are other valuable things about your relationship, keep those in mind as well.

Above all, never give up! Keep practicing your craft. Everything worthwhile takes practice and patience.

ETA: time to trot out my favorite quote regarding critics.

"Critics are like eunuchs in a harem. They're there every night, they see it done every night, they see how it should be done every night, but they can't do it themselves." -- Brendan Francis Behan

Redzilla said:

Unsolicited advice: Don't let Best Friend read your work again. There's a name for someone who would tell a 19-year old to "lower the expectations and goals you have for your life." It's Dreamkiller. You can be friends with these people, but you can't necessarily trust them.

Good luck.

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Wise words. Also remember that Dreamkillers may truly believe that they have your best interests at heart. The worst Dreamkillers often are the ones closest to use (parents, spouses, best friends, etc.). Love them anyway, but don't trust them with your dreams.

I had a similar experience. I wrote a manuscript and asked a friend to critique it. His response was that he was really busy at the moment (gaming and drawing) and that he'd read it when it was published. I got the distinct impression that what he meant was that he wasn't going to waste his time with it unless it was good enough to get published.

So I asked someone else. Too busy.

So I asked someone else. Too busy.

So I sent the ms off to a small publisher. Acceptance! Yay!

I went back to that first guy, and he wanted to know all about the publisher. It wasn't a major house, so he wasn't willing to read the ms. He said again that he'd read it when it came out, but sounded iffy about it.

The others were still too busy. Except for one.

He took the ms and kept it a few days, then came over and handed it back to me without a word. I asked, "So...what did you think?"

I can't repeat what he said word for word, because it was very upsetting. The upshot is that I could tell he hadn't read it very thoroughly because he had major plot-points wrong and he seemed to hate everything about the book, from its premise to its characters to the actual writing. He ended by saying that, since my ms was accepted, he thought that maybe he'd start writing. Seemed an easy way to make some money.

I was hurt and angry. I didn't say anything to him about it, though.

Weeks later, when I was calm, I talked to him about how he'd made me feel. "My writing is very personal to me," I told him. "For years, I would burn my writing rather than let anyone see it. I've finally gotten to a place where I can let strangers read my work, but it's taken a lot of courage, and I know that there's going to be criticism - I'm Ok with that - but some of your words were a little too cruel coming from someone who is supposed to be my friend." (Not great grammar, but it's the best approximation of what I actually said.)

His response was, "Oh, I see. You can't take criticism. Well, you know, you're going to get a lot of it, so you'd better get used to it."

I tried to point out some of the places where he went a little too far in his earlier "critique" and his response, basically, was "get used to it."

*sigh*

I don't even tell him about my writing anymore.


Read throught the "Stupid things that non-writers say" thread. You'll see that there are many, many of us who have been hit with these sorts of comments. If you want to be a great writer, you have to endure this crap and JUST KEEP WRITING. You'll get better with every book, and while you can't quell every critic, you can get published and maybe someday make a decent living at it.

Remember, any one person, no matter how knowledgeable, is just one person. Rowling, King, Seuss...they all went through a whole lot of submissions before getting accepted. AGENTS turned them down - thought they didn't have what it took - and you've got to admit that an agent's opinion is more educated than your friend's.

And yet, despite these agents not liking their books, they succeeded. And despite your friend, so can you.

But ONLY if you don't quit writing. The choice is yours.

Kerr said:

Here's a not-so-wild guess, HD, is your critic by chance your mother? That was the only opinion that ever had that kind of bearing on me. Mine read only non-fiction, while I wrote far-spectrum fiction. She would toss whatever I wrote aside after straining through the first paragraph or so, and say, "I'm sorry! I just can't read that kind of garbage. Why don't you write something normal?" One story was about my grandmother after she died, and even though it was published and I'd given both her and my aunt a copy, I don't think either of them even read it. I never heard a word from either.

My mother, who remained the top critic in my mind (She didn't ask for the job, I just needed to write something that would grab her to know that I'd achieved my goal.), died six years ago. These last few months that I've been online working at AW, I've come to understand that I'm free to succeed or suck. It's all up to me. It's how hard I'm willing to work. If something feels wrong or missing, then I must put on my thinking cap again. It has, and had, nothing to do with my mother, but everything to do with whether I will allow my inner voice to pull me backward, or push me forward toward excellence. That is what is up to me.

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I'm pretty sure I've share this story before but I think it bears repeating.

I was 12 and my mother had come home from parent teacher conference. She was on the phone with her friend gossiping about us kids. I was at the bottom of the stairs listening like children do when I heard her say the following:

"Yes, well...last year, Kim's 6th grade English teacher pulled me aside to tell me that she feels Kim is a gifted writer and I should encourage her to do something with it. *pause as she listens* Oh yes, I've snuck in and read some of her things she writes. She writes such horrifying poems and sappy ones too. I don't see what her teacher was talking about."

My mother told me I wasn't cut out to succeed in college either and NOW...I am an International Honors Student with a gpa of 3.95 at 49 years of age.

Why am I telling you this? Our talent and our futures can not be judged by others nor can they be fulfilled by others. So if writing is what you love, (you as anyone reading this) please do not give it up. Not for anyone or any reason.

The only voice in your head that matters is yours. Tell the rest to go jump off a cliff and focus on your work at hand.

Okay (legally blonde voice) I have to go work now.

juneafternoon said:

Have you ever heard of the saying, "It's not what you say, it's how you say it"?

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AAAAAAAAAAAAMEN!

HD, let's assume there were flaws in your manuscript and you wanted feedback so you could make it better. In the partnership you were trying to work with your friend (?), the one who failed was her, not you, because she wasn't helpful. She couldn't tell you how to improve the manuscript and she couldn't tell you anything in a way that made it possible for you to hear it.

I agree with those who said don't ever show this person your writing again. Find other writers to exchange crits with.

And excuse me if I take a minute to say what a bitch.

I know that there has been a lot said here to encourage you but let me add to the mix.

I read your post and was taken to the brink. Just in those few short words I envisioned you and your friend with ease. Words flowed from the screen as freely as a bird on a brisk spring wind. I know this might sound a tad corny, but if you were such a mediocore writer, your post would have reflected that IMHO. Believe me: it did not!

Now that I've gotten all weepy eyed, let me throw in one of my usual zingers. Remember the first scenes of History of the World, Part I? During the caveman days when man learned about fire, marriage, the first homosexual marriage, and then there was the artist, painting on the cave walls. Then another caveman stood on a boulder near the wall and peed on the painting. The narrator fills in the void by talking about the birth of the artist, and the inevitable afterbirth - the art critic!

That tends to come to mind whenever I get an opinion that seems overly harsh or without merit. Take those crits with a thick skin, HD, and keep at the writing. Your passion will shine through.

Pike

I wonder if one of the reasons we've all had this experience is because our friends just can't believe that someone they personally know could actually be good at something.

My favorite line in your post, HD, is when she said your title was so bad it made her want to cry. There's just no way you should even consider taking that seriously. She's too close to you to give objective feedback.

WELL BEING THE BRUTAL ONE HERE PERHAPS GIVING UP IS AN OPTION----THAT IS IF YOU WANT TO-----THEN AGAIN-HMMM----LEMME SEE-AGE----YUP AGE HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH IT BEING THE HOPELESS ROMANTIC THAT I AM AND BEING OLDER'N DIRT-SO HERE IS THE SCENARIO-YOU SITTING-KINDA OLD AND ALL SHRIVELED UP AND GOOD STUFF LIKE THAT-YOU LOOK DOWN AT YOUR OLD WRINKLED HANDS AND THE QUESTION THAT YOU HAVE ASKED YOURSELF-OH MAYBE A MILLION TIMES WHILE NOT DOING WHAT YOUR HEART LEADS YOU TO DO-IS-UM-ER-WELL-IF ONLY I WOULD HAVE---INSERT WISH HERE THAT YOU LET ALONE BECAUSE SOME OTHER FOLKS TOLD YOU YOU HAD NO ABILITY-SECOND SCENARIO----SAME SCENE-SHIT I AM GLAD I DID NOT LISTEN TO THOSE FOLKS AND I FOLLOWED ME HEART THINGY-UPPA YOU KID-I AM THE SECOND AND I WISH THAT FOR YOU-LOVE DAVE

paprikapink said:

I wonder if one of the reasons we've all had this experience is because our friends just can't believe that someone they personally know could actually be good at something.

My favorite line in your post, HD, is when she said your title was so bad it made her want to cry. There's just no way you should even consider taking that seriously. She's too close to you to give objective feedback.

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This just might be the case. My first novel I let two best friends read and critique for me. My friend who I thought was nearest and dearest, showed the green eyed monster very early. She actually scoffed at me and said "You think you're a writer." It hurt my feelings so bad. Then I had to take a step back and I saw that she was jealous that I actually finished writing a novel and was taking my writing seriously after all these years. My other friend was cheering me on. She told me areas that needed fixing, as well as telling me she thought I had talent and needed to keep writing. I must say the nasty friend has created a little void in our friendship due to her jealously, but it's ok because I'll never let her read my work again. Chin up and don't give up. A writer needs to write whether we get published or not. Good luck.

joyce said:

This just might be the case. My first novel I let two best friends read and critique for me. My friend who I thought was nearest and dearest, showed the green eyed monster very early. She actually scoffed at me and said "You think you're a writer." It hurt my feelings so bad. Then I had to take a step back and I saw that she was jealous that I actually finished writing a novel and was taking my writing seriously after all these years. My other friend was cheering me on. She told me areas that needed fixing, as well as telling me she thought I had talent and needed to keep writing. I must say the nasty friend has created a little void in our friendship due to her jealously, but it's ok because I'll never let her read my work again. Chin up and don't give up. A writer needs to write whether we get published or not. Good luck.

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I think the same can be true of relatives as well - I know in my family there is a lot of jealousy, things like I'm the first to go to university, so I get a lot of negative comments about my studies. My uncle tried to write a book years ago and sent the MS to a publisher, got it rejected and just went into a sulk, never sent it to an agent or tried to query properly. When I was just mucking about, writing fanfiction (yes, I did start on that years ago) and learning to write that way then it was all fine and he encouraged me and would read my work. Now that I'm trying to play with the big boys and girls, my family has no time for me. Writing is treated either with dismissal or with a snide 'you'll never do anything' type comment. My mother actually said to me I'd never get anywhere in writing because I had no good ideas. I was really hurt by the comment until I realised I'd never discussed my ideas with my mother so how would she know if they were good or not, or even that I had any?

So, yeah, I think people belittle or dismiss talk of writing out of a kind of jealousy. Definitely in your friend's case, HD. Even supposing she really genuinely thought the MS had problems, there are ways of phrasing it and her choice of wording just makes me thing 'jealous as hell'.

don't give up the dream, especially so young, just because of something said by one other person, because your feelings can and probably will change. Don't do it and then spend the next 23 years kicking yourself in the ass cause you listened to that one voice that said words just for the sake of being heard and probably for the sake of being controlling and hurtful. I know exactly where you're at and what you're feeling. Because of someone else, I put a lot of those dreams on the backburner and then let the pot boil dry. It might be hard to accept now, but it would be a whole hell of a lot easier than after almost a quarter century of abject hell. I did it for that long. It took me too long to figure it out and a huge part of me died in the process. No other person is worthy of what you are prepared to give them. The writing will not be enough of a sacrifice. Once you give that up, you will set a precedent to continue to do that all through your relationship, every day, and you will eventually resent it. You are cheating yourself if you take her words to heart, becasue I don't for one minute believe they have anything to do with your writing or ability. Life's too damned short to worry about this person, and I'm sorry to say this if you love her, but I know if she said these things, she doesn't love you the way you need to be loved. Don't wait 23 years.'

Hopeless dreamer......you need to think about a genre that you don't like. Now, would it be fair for you to critique a novel in that genre? No, of course not. So, don't take your friends criticisms too hard.
I don't like Sci-Fi fantasy.......so I don't read them.....BUT, I would be the last person to ever say that those writers don't have talent.

Keep writing I say! Tell your friend that you'll get around to the genre that she likes on your third or fourth novel! LOL

also.......hopeless deamer.........you WILL get other reactions from other people in regards to your work....and it WON'T be as bad as hers. Besides, you need to CHEER the fact that she gave you a bad review.......because they CAN'T all be bad, and you just got one of the bad ones out of the way. Look at it this way...if she gave your writing the WORST review ever, then they'll ALL be better than that from now on.

I recently had my novel reviewed....by a woman whose opinion I vauled very highly...and she said she HATED....the antagonist in my story....I was CRUSHED....and then, she explained......my antagonist had done something so vile and underhanded at one point, that my reader threw the manuscript across the room.........as it turns out....that was a good thing....I'd caused my reader to become emotionally involved in teh story and invoked a reaction from her. She explained to me that the writing was powerful enough to make her hate the bastard......THAT was a compliment.

You will get plenty of compliments.....just keep writing. After all there are 8 million stories out there in the naked city.........or somesuch.

HopelessDreamer said:

I haven't been on AW for awhile, basically because I've completely given up on writing. It's not because I wanted to, but because it makes me think only of my shortcomings.

After she bugged me for months and months, I finally let my best friend read the first chapter of my MS. I waited in agony until she finished reading it. When she handed it back to me, there were scribbles all over it. Okay, fine, she saw things that were wrong with it... I can take constructive criticism. I asked her what she thought of it overall. She shrugged and said: "It was... fine". I felt sick, and asked her what she meant by "fine". She said the story line wasn't compelling, and there was something missing that she just couldn't pinpoint. "To be honest, I would never read it. Actually, I don't know if anyone would want to read it," she said.

I kind of went into a state of depression at this point (I know it sounds pathetic, but this person's opinion means a lot to me). I held myself together and asked her what else she thought. She said my title was so bad it made her want to cry; it was one of the worst she'd ever heard. She told me to lower the expectations and goals I have for my life; someone with a mediocre writing ability should aim for something less. She suggested writing a romance novel for a wider audience. I told her I can't; it's just not my thing. She told me to mainstream it, go commercial. At this point I was so upset, disappointed, frustrated, and angry that I couldn't concentrate.

Ever since she told me this, I have not written. Every time I open a Word document and try, all I can think of are her words. I can't edit my finished MS (though I have over 20 times) because I'm reminded that according to her the majority of people won't like it.

I love to write more than anything. I want to write again, even if my writing is just "fine". I wish my friend's opinion didn't matter so much to me. How do I get past this fear that I'm a horrible writer?

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Somewhere (I think in the novel forum) you'll find a thread on the horrible things non-writers say to writers. Is your friend a best selling writer? A widely read critic? An agent? A publisher at a top house?

If none of the above, I suggest shaking it off and seriously considering we're looking at a case of envy. It's easier for some people to tear someone down than build them up.

In any decent critique circle, anyone who made remarks that distructive would be kicked out. None of that was useful. It looks very much like it was intended to be destructive and unfortunately worked.

But only you can decide to take it for what it's worth--which is nothing. Maybe working on a new project, a project you would enjoy not something this person suggested, would help. But it's for you to decide.

I just read you're only 19???

Go find yourself someone who will read whatever you like and tell you it's fantastic. Or, if you can't find someone like that, don't let anyone read it at all. Spend a few years writing just because YOU LOVE IT. Write 3 really crappy books and don't even worry about form or content or telling or showing.

I guarantee you will teach yourself SO MUCH in the process; you don't even need someone to critique you.

Imagine a child coloring with crayons. Now imagine what would happen if that child's teacher came over, looked at the drawing, and said, "Look at this, you didn't color in the lines. And this dog should not be blue. And why is there a smiley face on the sun?" Pretty soon, the child would get discouraged and give up drawing. Children don't need to be critiqued - they need to be encouraged and applauded. And eventually, as their view of the world expands, they will realize that dogs are not blue and suns don't have smiley faces.

Now, I'm not saying you're a child. What I am saying is that people need encouragement and support and approval to continue doing something they love until they are confident enough to do it on their own, regardless of others' opinions. Because of the pleasure that child got out of coloring with crayons, that child may spend years and years doodling and sketching, teaching himself without any outside input... and then one day go to art school. In art school, the child's drawings will definitely be critiqued, but at that point the child will be confident and mature enough to learn from the criticism.

And because that child has confidence in himself, he will realize when even his critics are wrong. That yes, sometimes, dogs are blue.

H D.......JoNightshade has some good advice there.....and I will add ONE thing to what she said.....keep writing...and DON'T put it off like I did. I had my idea, for my current WIP, in 1974......I waited until last year to start it....I just finished it...and who knows when/if it will be published......I'm 52 now....so, my advice, read a lot, write a lot, and don;t stop, don't allow any discouragement of any sort to stop you or slow you down. Go......write.....

Personal story.

About three years ago I was struggling to break free from a really bad and abusive publishing company. (PA for anyone who doesn't know my story). One of my friends had been bugging me to read my story for months. I figured what the heck. So I sent it to him and he didn't say anything, about two months went by, he still didn't say anything. I didn't ask.

Then during a conversation I apparently struck a nerve though I hadn't intended to, and he snapped back "It's just like you and those shitty books you try to write." I was floored. A few days later he apologized and said he doesn't like anything but a couple of westerns and even those he doesn't really care for.

Unfortunately the damage was done. I haven't talked to him since. It depresses me every time. I was released shortly after and I haven't been able to bring myself to rewrite those books even though they've been free. I haven't even been able to bring myself to complete a novel since then. I switched to script writing shortly after that. Between PA and him I was beaten down. I am now steaming through my current novel with all intentions of finishing it. I'm further than I have gotten to before. I know how the story goes from here and I intend to go all the way. And I'll tell you what, I am scared to death.

Don't let this "friend" of yours have as much power over you as I let him have over me. Someone further up the thread had it right. These types of people are dreamkillers.

Okay enough from me.

HopelessDreamer said:

I kind of went into a state of depression at this point (I know it sounds pathetic, but this person's opinion means a lot to me). I held myself together and asked her what else she thought. She said my title was so bad it made her want to cry; it was one of the worst she'd ever heard. She told me to lower the expectations and goals I have for my life; someone with a mediocre writing ability should aim for something less. She suggested writing a romance novel for a wider audience. I told her I can't; it's just not my thing. She told me to mainstream it, go commercial. At this point I was so upset, disappointed, frustrated, and angry that I couldn't concentrate.


I love to write more than anything. I want to write again, even if my writing is just "fine". I wish my friend's opinion didn't matter so much to me. How do I get past this fear that I'm a horrible writer?

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Don't let it get to you. Your 'friend' was needlessly cruel in her assessment. You're only 19 and that's pretty harsh criticism from someone who may or may not know anything about writing. Do NOT lower your expectations. Do NOT lower your goals. Good writing takes lots and lots of practice and you have plenty of time to develop your talent. You might try attending a creative writing course. There you will meet other aspiring writers and get a chance to learn and grow and share your writing with people you don't know. If you love to write, write. Don't let anyone stop you. Good luck.
Linnea

HopelessDreamer said:

Ever since she told me this, I have not written. Every time I open a Word document and try, all I can think of are her words. I can't edit my finished MS (though I have over 20 times) because I'm reminded that according to her the majority of people won't like it.

I love to write more than anything. I want to write again, even if my writing is just "fine". I wish my friend's opinion didn't matter so much to me. How do I get past this fear that I'm a horrible writer?

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Writing is a very subjective business. No matter how important that one person is, listening to just one opinion would be bad.

With every single bestseller that has ever existed, you can find people who hated it, or who were simply bored by it and didn't know what all the fuss was about.

Many people won't like your book simply because of genre, or because they don't understand where it is coming from (I've been told that nobody would ever want to read my book because nobody wants to read books about werewolves - a provably clueless statement, just try visiting any bookstore or library).

Plus, even if you are a mediocre writer, every great writer was a mediocre writer at some point. You can certainly improve. Sometimes all it takes is a few minor changes to turn a mediocre book into a great book. Plus, I'm firmly convinced that some mediocre writers happen to make a living at it. Even if you are a mediocre writer and never become great, you still might have a promising career ahead of you.

If she's asking for more stuff, that only adds credibility to the fact that she hurt you not because you deserved it but because she has her own underlying issues.

I hope you don't listen to her. I'm 24, I've been writing seriously since I was 12, I lost a good 6 years of writing between then and now due to 1. bad word programs and 2. toxic friends. Thankfully software has come a very long way but unfortunately there are always going to be toxic people out there. I wish you luck in avoiding your roommate under writing circumstances.

I second Icerose: toxic people are always going to be out there. The rejection process (either by toxic friends or by editors) is an integral part of getting your work published. The authors I know get at least 6-7 rejections for every sale. Some people get into hundreds of query rejections before they sign up with an agent. You need to toughen up and set your priorities straight. *You* are the chief supporter of not only your writing work, but all other choices you make in life.

An example from my own experience (I think I told it on AW before, but it bears repeating). When I was fourteen I published a humorous short short in a national newspaper. My mother was appalled and told me never to write/publish again and if I absolutely had to do it, I should publish under a pseudonym so as not to shame the family name. I stopped writing. I started with fiction again in Fall 2007 (that's seventeen years later). When I was 24, my mother hid my grandmother's wedding ring from me because she did not approve of my future husband. This time I put my foot down and got married despite her many speeches, and I've been happily married for the last seven years. Just for the record, my mother is now very proud of my non-fiction pubs and supportive of the fiction writing process, but I tell her very little about it.

Bottomline: do what your heart desires. You do not have to justify yourself to us, to your friend, to anybody. If you keep at it, you will get better, and nothing will boost your confidence like that first sale. But just from this thread you can see that most writers have a story to tell about hurtful remarks from kin, friends and strangers. Writing is an emotionally delicate process, and it often provokes ambiguous feelings in others. This makes a writer vulnerable. You need to accept this, accept your vulnerability and move on. Do it when you're ready

If your roommate keeps bothering you about wanting to read your stuff, you can always tell her that you're very superstitious about your writing and won't let anyone read it until it's published. I tell people that talking about my WIP jinxes it (it actually does, by the way). They usually leave me alone after that.

HD: we don't mean the "only 19" as dismissal, but consider that to many of us "almost six years" of being "serious about writing" seems like a very short time. Take me. I've been serious about writing since I was 15, when I wrote my first embarrassingly bad novel. I was 26 before I felt I was writing well enough to share my work publicly. Now I'm 36 and last year was the first time I queried an agent with one of my novels. That's why I said it has nothing to do with whether your book is good or bad at this stage. 19 is way too young to give up. You've only dipped your toe into the work of writing at this stage.

HopelessDreamer said:

I know some of you have said "but you're only 19!", and maybe so, but I've been serious about writing since I was 14. I know a lot of you have years of experience on me, but it is a bit frustrating to have been honing a skill for almost six years only to have my friend tell me I'm a horrible writer. I'm an avid reader as well, and an English minor who took AP English courses in high school, so I know a decent amount about novels. I think I've written enough to have my own voice, but I don't know. Maybe I should post some more on SYW.

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