Vatican Versus Scientists

Bird of Prey

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I never understand why people are so afraid of their beliefs being challenged. I mean, if you hold THE truth, then it's obvious you shouldn't have anything to be afraid of, right? For me, this fear just tells me that these people are not even sure about their beliefs, and the insecurity runs down so deep they need to protect themselves against any new ideas of any sort. This goes either way. I remember my mom refusing to read the DaVinci Code because it would challenge her beliefs. I told her: "if your beliefs were strong, they'd resist any challenge." She didn't answer. She hasn't read the book. Whatever. I also have a friend who won't even touch the Bible because she doesn't believe in all that stuff. Well, if she really was sure about all that, she wouldn't have a problem with reading the Bible.

So, what's the big deal? Let the pope into the university. I'm sure he just wants to give a talk and not take the building by storm and burn all the books in a great pile and then burn all the teachers. Meh.

I agree, Dama. There is no reason for such a rude rebuke.
 

blacbird

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i think there's a caricature in the public consciousness of an intellectual being martyred for the cause of science after being seized by backward and ignorant fanatics who refused to believe anything of science.

the historical record contradicts this.

Perhaps for Galileo. But not for Giordano Bruno.

caw
 

William Haskins

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Perhaps for Galileo. But not for Giordano Bruno.

caw

actually it comes down to some splitting of hairs to make the case that bruno was executed for "science". the historical record is, at best, split, and it favors (in my view) the notion that bruno was actually executed primarily for denying the divinity of christ and other such theological matters.

this, of course, is still stupid. but a premise that bruno was executed for subscribing to copernican theory is, at best, an oversimplification.

"…in 1600 there was no official Catholic position on the Copernican system, and it was certainly not a heresy. When…Bruno…was burned at the stake as a heretic, it had nothing to do with his writings in support of Copernican cosmology." - Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy

"Bruno was not condemned for his defence of the Copernican system of astronomy, nor for his doctrine of the plurality of inhabited worlds, but for his theological errors, among which were the following: that Christ was not God but merely an unusually skilful magician, that the Holy Ghost is the soul of the world, that the Devil will be saved, etc." - Catholic Encyclopedia
 

Bird of Prey

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"The real community of man," as opposed to all the "self-contradictory simulacra of community" on offer, "is the community of those who seek the truth, of the potential knowers." This group includes all of us in principle, perhaps, but in fact it "includes only a few, the true friends, as Plato was to Aristotle at the very moment they were disagreeing about the nature of the good." It is here, he says "that the contact people so desperately seek is to be found." All other kinds of relatedness "are only imperfect reflections of this one." What holds us together is not shared beliefs of a shared way of life, but shared questions. Liberal education "does not consist so much in answers as in permanent dialogue."
From Recovering the Western Soul by Wilfred M McClay. Quotes of Bloom.
NYTimes.

The reason why I think we're here, debating.
 
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small axe

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Well, were Galileo or Copernicus actually correct about their Astronomy anyway?

Given that they accepted that the Earth orbits the Sun (and good for them, and boo that the idea bothered the Church, because there's no theological reason to demand that the Earth cannot orbit the Sun, is there?) ... didn't Galileo still assume that the entire Universe had the Sun for its center?

I dunno, I'm asking that sincerely. I mean, how many scientifically incorrect ideas did Galileo and the Church share?

It's not like Galileo was the poster boy for All True Science.

Many of the men we paint as "enlightened Scientists" were probably trying to turn lead into gold and thought disease was caused (scientifically) by "bad airs" etc.

The Church shouldn't have tried to silence his Scientific investigations into the glories of Creation, no.

The "secular world" (which seems to get along just swell with the Church, except for some folks with chips on their shoulders on both sides) shouldn't keep regurgitating anti-Church propaganda from many centuries ago, either.

What, you think they don't have the internet in the Vatican? You think they think their xerox machines are possessed by satan's demons of idolotrous copying?
 

blacbird

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Well, were Galileo or Copernicus actually correct about their Astronomy anyway?

Given that they accepted that the Earth orbits the Sun (and good for them, and boo that the idea bothered the Church, because there's no theological reason to demand that the Earth cannot orbit the Sun, is there?) ... didn't Galileo still assume that the entire Universe had the Sun for its center?

I dunno, I'm asking that sincerely. I mean, how many scientifically incorrect ideas did Galileo and the Church share?

It's not like Galileo was the poster boy for All True Science.

He was the poster boy for the most advanced scientific understanding of his time, and advanced that understanding hugely. Do you somehow demand that Galileo know about black holes (even Einstein, less than century ago, dismissed that concept, and he was unquestionably the poster boy for the most advanced scientific understanding of his time), other galaxies, the expansion of the universe, dark matter, DNA, evolution, nuclear fission . . . ?

Gimme a frickin' break.

caw
 

Unique

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By what do you mean by "secular extremists"?

. . . for the Ultimate in oxymoron ... try ... secular extremism. coming to a theatre near you. . .


Well, were Galileo or Copernicus actually correct about their Astronomy anyway?

blackbird said:
He was the poster boy for the most advanced scientific understanding of his time, and advanced that understanding hugely.

Just a few hundred years either way can make a world of difference. Did the scientists that took us to the moon dismiss their religions or did they just go to work and get the job done anyway?

I really fail to see the disconnect between science and religion. They seem to be on a wheel to me and one proves the other and the other proves the one.... am I the only person here that looks at it like that?
 

donroc

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Regarding scientific orthodoxy, read about "establishment" vitriol and perhaps fear Velikovsky experienced in the 1950s and after. One does not have to be Pope to endure wrath of scientists.

Scientific "facts" (aka dogma) have changed in my lifetime. But, if one has based one's entire life and career on a belief system and may be recognized as an expert in that field, I can understand his/her terror at the threat of being proved wrong.
 

Gary

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It's a shame that people of faith and people without it cannot simply agree to disagree. There seems to be a mandate on either side which demands conversion. It's wrong regardless of who it is that is doing it. God gave man free will. Politicians, clergy, activists and all the rest should simply accept that and move on. Our founding fathers as pious as they were accepted it. Jefferson and Madison went out of their way to insulate us from extremism on either side. When you hear people with a dog in this fight suggest that the Constitution be changed, you should all rise up and say, "NO!"

Thank you! If the Pope is speaking somewhere, and you don't like what he says, don't attend.

There are always as many anti-religious zealots as there are pro-religion.
 

johnnysannie

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The Pope is calling for tolerance. Now, in very recent years, I'll admit, that has been the position of the Catholic Church, but historically, the Catholic Church has been anything but tolerant.

Compared to many of the fundamentalist Protestant sects in the USA, the Catholic Church is far more tolerant that most of them. Tolerance has been a position of the Catholic Church for far longer than it has been for most religious extremists.
 

Bird of Prey

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Compared to many of the fundamentalist Protestant sects in the USA, the Catholic Church is far more tolerant that most of them. Tolerance has been a position of the Catholic Church for far longer than it has been for most religious extremists.


Good point.
 

maxmordon

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Compared to many of the fundamentalist Protestant sects in the USA, the Catholic Church is far more tolerant that most of them. Tolerance has been a position of the Catholic Church for far longer than it has been for most religious extremists.

Same thing happens here (a country with Catholic majority) whenever someone starts talking to you about the bible and God, we automatically think is an "Evangelical" (Protestant, Baptist, Jehova's Witness, Mormon; basically someone who wants to convert us)
 

maxmordon

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I never understand why people are so afraid of their beliefs being challenged. I mean, if you hold THE truth, then it's obvious you shouldn't have anything to be afraid of, right? For me, this fear just tells me that these people are not even sure about their beliefs, and the insecurity runs down so deep they need to protect themselves against any new ideas of any sort. This goes either way. I remember my mom refusing to read the DaVinci Code because it would challenge her beliefs. I told her: "if your beliefs were strong, they'd resist any challenge." She didn't answer. She hasn't read the book. Whatever. I also have a friend who won't even touch the Bible because she doesn't believe in all that stuff. Well, if she really was sure about all that, she wouldn't have a problem with reading the Bible.

So, what's the big deal? Let the pope into the university. I'm sure he just wants to give a talk and not take the building by storm and burn all the books in a great pile and then burn all the teachers. Meh.

Concuerdo contigo, compañera
 

rugcat

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the galileo myth is one of the hallmarks of a sort of secular fundamentalism.
For a myth busting account of Galileo's conflict with the Church (as part of a fascinating book on the history of cosmology) I highly recommend Arthur Koestler's The Sleepwalkers. Both massively informative and highly entertaining.
 

johnnysannie

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Same thing happens here (a country with Catholic majority) whenever someone starts talking to you about the bible and God, we automatically think is an "Evangelical" (Protestant, Baptist, Jehova's Witness, Mormon; basically someone who wants to convert us)

I live where there is a Catholic minority and there is a concentrated effort to "Convert" Catholics (which I am) by coming to our doors, handing us literature about the terrible "Cat-lickers", name calling, and much more. When my daughters wore their parish youth t-shirts to my son's public baseball game last summer, they were approached by a grown man who cussed them out for being Catholic and scared the bejesus of them. (They are ll years old, BTW).
 

maxmordon

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I live where there is a Catholic minority and there is a concentrated effort to "Convert" Catholics (which I am) by coming to our doors, handing us literature about the terrible "Cat-lickers", name calling, and much more. When my daughters wore their parish youth t-shirts to my son's public baseball game last summer, they were approached by a grown man who cussed them out for being Catholic and scared the bejesus of them. (They are ll years old, BTW).

And Scientologists seems that want to sum up to the game. Just turn on the TV at 1 am in ANY Latin American country and you will find at least in one channel some guy on a suit talking about some vague biblical references, lame reenactments of demonic possessions and of course trying to sell you "Water of Israel" or a "Stone of the Lament wall" or a "Blessed Blanket from Babylon". I always considered silly fanaticals until a Costa Rican show started to mock them. (They are called Pare de Sufrir "Stop for suffering" and the sketch was called Pague por Sufrir "Pay for suffering") they threated to sue the TV network and the sketches where stopped inmediatly

Sounds awful what you say. What small fanatical country you come from?
 

NeuroFizz

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Well, were Galileo or Copernicus actually correct about their Astronomy anyway?

Given that they accepted that the Earth orbits the Sun (and good for them, and boo that the idea bothered the Church, because there's no theological reason to demand that the Earth cannot orbit the Sun, is there?) ... didn't Galileo still assume that the entire Universe had the Sun for its center?

I dunno, I'm asking that sincerely. I mean, how many scientifically incorrect ideas did Galileo and the Church share?

It's not like Galileo was the poster boy for All True Science.

Many of the men we paint as "enlightened Scientists" were probably trying to turn lead into gold and thought disease was caused (scientifically) by "bad airs" etc.
Armchair scientists seem to like to criticize past scientific achievements with the enthusiasm of knowedge born from re-watching a TEVO replay.

And, if I'm ever in a car wreck, I really hope Tom Cruise drives by...
 

maxmordon

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Aristotle affirmated that the brain was a blood cooler and pumper and that all our thoughts came from the heart...
 

rugcat

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He was the poster boy for the most advanced scientific understanding of his time, and advanced that understanding hugely
Galileo's reputation exceeds his accomplishments. The true genius of that period was Johannes Kepler. (see my previous post)

"Enter Galileo, the white knight of empirical science. By what we just argued, we would expect Galileo to be a step backwards. Indeed, he dismissed Kepler's correct law of ellipses on the basis of his own incorrect law of circular inertia (cf. pp. 475-476), and he dismissed Kepler's correct explanation of the tides in favour of his own silly theory of tides, his purported proof of the Copernican theory, which, to be fair, was never all that empirical or scientific in the first place since "it contradicted Galileo's own researches into motion, was a relapse into crude Aristotelian physics, and postulated that there ought to be only one tide a day, precisely at noon---whereas everybody knew that there were two, and that they were shifting around the clock" (p. 453-454).

--From a review of The Sleepwalkers by Viktor Blazio