Critiques

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kuwisdelu

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Okay, so here's a question. I've read a lot of people saying that positives from a critter aren't that big a help.

I take a peek at the SYW boards every day or two. Most things don't hold my interest--not that they're not good, but with my limited amount of time, they don't catch my interest. So when I do see something that I read all the way through, I'm obviously impressed by it and drop a line saying so. ("This was great" or "A fun read," like that.) I will also try to point out if there was something that didn't make sense or whatever, but my comments are always short (that time constraint thing again).

Is it your opinion that those quick comments aren't worth recording? I won't be offended if you say no, they're not. Honest. :)

Positive comments can be helpful sometimes. Mostly as a motivator to keep going or for knowing when we've done something right, and that's always a good thing. :)

Quick comments about problems can be helpful sometimes, too, but not always. It depends how clearly that quick comment is articulated, as that impacts if I'm able to identify exactly what the problem is. Short comments like that are always a little harder for the author to interpret as being one of those ones he'll take to heart, or one of those ones he'll ignore. There are always comments that we take to heart, and those we decide are wrong, for whatever reason, so I'm sure you know what I mean. ;) With shorter comments, it's harder--at least for me--to tell how important it is.

But that doesn't mean you should ever stop leaving them! It could be one of those really helpful ones!
 

Bartholomew

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while it's a wonderful ego boost, it's not helping me identify where there could still be some problems. "This was great, but it dragged a bit in the middle" is far more helpful.

But at the end of the day, every critique is opinion. I posted a story in SYW that I had already submitted to a couple places. I got feedback that I considered valuable, and then someone bought the original version.

Part of what makes a critique valuable is being able to identify problems yourself, and recognizing when something has a truely crippling problem. If someone is sitting down thinking, "This is perfect. I think I'll share this to show the ole boys how it's done," then he probably has a nasty surprise coming. Alternatively, if the things he's struggling with are minute details, he's probably ready to submit.

The sort of critiques that help make a story better are the sort that identify what the author did not see as cliché, identify better ways to execute something, etc. If a critter (there, I used it) finds himself facing major grammatical problems, consistency errors, stylistic problems, etc--the story is not ready for critique, let alone publication.

But that's just my work. Other people want different help. That's what makes offering critique so hit or miss. I believe that some people post their work for an ego boost. Some people post their work because they want help with a specific problem--like POV, or even a simple, yet haunting style error. Others are trying to learn how to write from the very first building block, and want help with that. Others still believe that their work is unpublishable, and want every single piece of advice they can get about it.

A critique on a first chapter that has one piece of really good advice that makes the story better, and lets the author make an elemental change throughout the entire book-- that's one of the best types of critiques.

But, really, the best critique is, "Aside from a couple of minor problems you'll catch while you're editing, this is pretty darn good."

I love it when I find a memorable, genuinely professional quality story in the critique room.
 

kuwisdelu

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Bartholomew expressed very well the same things I like in a good critique. I think they're best when used to find problems that the writer suspects are there, but just can't find on their own. Things a writer can spot (relatively) easily on his or her own--like consistency issues, grammatical issues, etc.--should be fixed beforehand. At least I try to. That's what I like for my own writing, but other writers may like other things, and just beginning writers will need something else entirely.
 

VGrossack

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I do like being praised, it raises my self-esteem to the point where the praises get to my head. I like crits better anyway. Okay, enough about me.

I think praises do help as long as it doesn't stand alone. If someone thinks your work is good they could have at least explain what they liked about it.

If someone says "You're work is awesome! I love it!" without any further explaination, how do you know they didn't read the whole piece?

You know, as a writer, I don't think readers *owe* me anything. They don't have to explain why they liked/disliked my work. If they didn't read the whole thing, that's probably because the work wasn't good enough.

This is not to say that I don't appreciate more in-depth comments. Of course I do! But I don't think that anyone owes it to me; that that is *the least* they can do.

Critiquing is difficult; good critters are hard to find and should be cherished. But people who turn out simply to be appreciative readers are wonderful, too.
 
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honeycomb

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It's not my baby, and it's not garbage either. It's more like a lump of clay, inert and ready for shaping.

MeowGirl,

That's deep! That's what I'll consider my work from now on. I was once so frustrated with my novel, that I called it 'stankin'. Won't do that anymore.
 

honeycomb

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I think it depends. If a piece is so god-awful that you, the critiquer, are in pain, then probably you're not getting that much out of doing the critique, other than a migraine.

LoL. :roll: I believe my first critter got a migraine (probably required brain surgery) after reading my first draft. Boy, did it suck! On a serious note, I benefited the most.

Because I'm retooling it, and it has now gone from my 'stankin' novel to my 'marble lump of clay' to be molded and perfected until it's published.:e2violin:
 
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Dawnstorm

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To me the say-something-good/say-something-bad approach isn't about motivation. If there's nothing good to say about a piece then the only honest response is: I don't like it; write something else.

To me this means: Find out what you like about the text and then find the stuff that undermines the effect. That way you're giving the writer the opportunity to put your comments in perspective.

That's why I'm not a fan of rule-based critiques. You can have those by opening any booklet on a random page. Rule-critiques substitute mock objectivity for an actual response.
 

drachin8

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To me the say-something-good/say-something-bad approach isn't about motivation. If there's nothing good to say about a piece then the only honest response is: I don't like it; write something else.

To me this means: Find out what you like about the text and then find the stuff that undermines the effect. That way you're giving the writer the opportunity to put your comments in perspective.

That's why I'm not a fan of rule-based critiques. You can have those by opening any booklet on a random page. Rule-critiques substitute mock objectivity for an actual response.

I would like to take this a step further. Don't necessarily focus only on what you like about a text, but also try to understand what the author intended so you can see and love the picture they were trying to paint. If you can critique with that knowledge in hand, then a whole new dimension is added to your comments. I think authors who feel you honestly understand their work are more likely to benefit from your ideas on how to improve it.


:)

-Michelle
 

NicoleJLeBoeuf

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In keeping with something most of the posts here agree upon--that "thank you" is the best response to a critique--I just wanna quickly thank y'all for your feedback regarding the "what I would do" approach.

As anyone who has ever critiqued manuscripts at critters.org knows, that site has a policy of expecting critters to word critiques super-subjectively. Everything is supposed to be said "I think" or "It seems to me," even corrections on spelling. For some people this is useful because it prevents critters from getting too didactic and sounding arrogant; others find it obnoxious because it smacks of "political correctness." I think my membership at critters.org is partially where my use of "what I would do" comes from... that, and reading about dream interpretation practice that uses the "if it were my dream" approach, but that's another story.
 

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I think some other questions to ask are:

1.) Is your work polished?

2.) Are you really ready to hear another's opinion of your work?




Are you really ready to hear another's opinion of your work? Excellent question. The answers could be quite revealing.
 

Fjm3eyes

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You know, a lot of people talk about developing a "thick skin," but what's really meant by that? What is a thick skin when you're talking about writing, because obviously, it's not like we're developing calluses all over our body.



Developing calluses? Oh, gee. A thick skin means means not to be hurt by honest criticism, even if it's not what you want.
 

Mr Flibble

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When you post work for a critique, what do you expect?

An honest opinion - people who crit me have the same likes/ dislikes as the readers I'm trying to get to - my first audience as it were. If they don't like it, then I can be sure the paying public won't. If they think it's not too bad, I may be able to sell it! At least with critters you get the chance to know what readers are thinking as they read it, whether you were clear enough, got across what you wanted to.


How do you expect it to be critiqued?

I expect to be critiqued the way the critter normally crits, in his or her own style. If they do line by line normally, then that's fine, if they do more of an overview that's fine too. All is helpful.

What do you consider a good critique? What makes a critique bad?

A good one is any one that gives an honest view in a non agressive manner.( Although I do like ones taht tell me I'm good - I'm only human!) A bad one may be honest, but being aggressive is unhelpful and hurtful.


Also, what are appropriate ways to respond to critiques? What are inappropriate ways?

Thanks, thanks and more thanks for the good ones. An 'I appreciate what you're saying' for the ones I don't agree with. Inappropriate ways? Not answering, sulking etc.
What's the worst critique you have ever received?
They've mostly been very helpful, even the harsh ones. The most unhelpful one I had was one guy who critted about a 1000 word piece by merely stating that I'd used a word incorrectly and that it ruined the piece for him. And did so rather arrogantly too. Which would have been fine if I had used the word incorrectly. So pretty darn unhelpful really.


What's the best?

My first ever attempt at writing I showed to a friend of mine. Instead of gagging and telling me to never write again ( which would have been fair given how dire it was) he sat me down, opened up a book from the genre I was writing in and got me to read the first page. Then he said 'Now look at the difference between that and yours'. Hugely constructive without being harsh, and by god he was right.

Although the one I got saying 'Wow, that's what I like to read!' was nice too :)

Have you ever, in retrospect, been embarrassed by your own behavior?

On a daily basis. Sometimes even hourly. But not about crits.

I don't crit very often, (because I don't think I'm really qualified) but if I do, I try and use the 'sandwich approach' someone mentioned earlier. Positive first, then observations / suggestions, then positive. You can be honest without being rude.
 
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Zelenka

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When you post work for a critique, what do you expect?

I'm not sure what I expect, as there is such a range of different critiquing styles around here, but what I hope for is an honest opinion given in a courteous manner.

What do you consider a good critique?

When I critique other people's work, I try to be as objective as possible, and I also try to get a balance bewteen positive and negative comments. If possible I will mention what did impress me as well as the parts I stumbled over. One thing I've found in critiques of my own work is that, while the negative comments are helpful in that obviously something needs addressed (whether I end up changing it or not remains to be seen, as it might just be a difference of opinion between myself and the critter, but the fact that someone got stuck on a point means I should go back and have a critical look at that section), however if the critiques only mention problems, I don't know if the critiquers don't like anything, therefore the whole project is flawed, or if they are just of the school of critiquing that doesn't go in for mentioning positives. I need to know what works as well as what doesn't in order to form a rounded view of the piece.


What makes a critique bad?

Well, rudeness and just blanket 'it sucks' goes without saying I suppose. One thing that for me makes a critique bad (and so something I try to avoid myself when reviewing) is when the critiquer makes a valid point but does so in a condescending or patronising way. For an example, if someone says to me 'your dialogue is a bit melodramatic there' I can understand that, and examples of where it's over the top help even more, but what I don't need is two paragraphs where they explain to me what 'melodramatic' means and why that's a very bad thing for writing, all in words of one syllable. I've had quite a few comments where the actual point about the text was true enough but my blood has been boiling for a long time because the critiquer spoke to me as if I was an idiot. So I always try to address writers in a respectful manner and assume some level of intelligence on their part.

Also, ones I don't find helpful are where the critiquer argues with your character's motivations or the way the story is headed. I can understand maybe 'I don't think someone in that position would react in such a way', but not 'I don't think Brannen would behave like that'. The strange thing has been that some of those comments came from readers who hadn't seen the whole book. I also had a beta reader once who told me that I shouldn't write the story as a romance, I should do it this other way and make the characters do this etc. basically changing the whole plot of the book.

What's the worst critique you have ever received?

Not sure, actually, not if by 'worst critique' you mean one that was really unhelpful as opposed to the worst, as in the writing received the most negative comments. I had one once that just compared everything I'd written to elements from movies. The basic story was of a man dabbling in the dark arts, who came a cropper because of it, having summoned up a demon-type thing, and was told from the POV of a student studying at a private school where this man taught. There was one scene where the students saw the creature climbing up the wall of the school to the master's window. It was all a bit kind of M R James in tone, or at least it was meant to be. The critiquer said that the creature just made her think of some cartoon thing, the master's servant made her think of someone in some Vincent Price movie, whole load of things like this, but didn't say whether this was meant to be good, bad or indifferent. I got the impression it was meant as a criticism, but was left a bit bewildered by the whole thing.

I'm glad this thread prompted me to remember that though as I've just thought what a good short story that section would make.

What's the best?

Again, not sure. I think probably one I received ages ago on a description of a battle scene, that pointed out the way to use active verbs rather than passive to make it more immediate, and that's something that's stayed with me ever since. Sounds like a really obvious point but I hadn't thought about it until then and it's been really useful in loads of different pieces of writing.


Have you ever, in retrospect, been embarrassed by your own behavior?

Every five minutes. I'm going to employ Dempsey's technique of leaving things a while before replying in future. I'm the opposite of the defensive author and I tend to take negative criticisms as an indication that I have no talent whatsoever, whether that is what the critiquer means or not. Basically I tend to put more weight onto the comment than was meant or is actually appropriate. Then I tend to get very frustrated and upset because I'm embarrassed that I posted something so bad and that people are now thinking 'God, what a crap writer she is, imagine wasting our time like that', and so on. I then realise I shouldn't have whined so much and try to explain why I reacted as I did and just end up sounding like I'm making excuses and make it worse. Really what I need to learn is to shut the hell up.

It's one of those vicious circle things. Because I have a lack of confidence in my own work, I'm not able to stand up for myself and believe in the piece even in the face of negative criticism and tend to react badly, but because I've had so many negative comments over the past year or so, I lack confidence in my own work.
 
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